Windows 10 April Update - Here is everything you need to know - OUT NOW!

[TopHatProductions115]

Should I do a review of this version? I just installed it to my laptop last night, so...

[bcredeur97]

still yet to update my desktop to this... kinda scared to, tbh. Though I just have automatic updates enabled so I'll get it eventually

[GoodBytes]

4 minutes ago, TopHatProductions115 said:

Should I do a review of this version? I just installed it to my laptop last night, so...

If you want, but the official release date is tomorrow, and a MS update is expected on the same date.

[Delphi1662]

some of this updates sound really nice

[GoodBytes]

Correction on my part in a past post.

Interestingly enough, the latest update did include a desktop shortcut for Edge.

I say interestingly, because on BOTH my insider preview systems, I never got it. I guess Insiders gets "privileges".

 

That said, when I updated that system, nothing else changed. Defaults where the same, privacy options where kept, layout of everything remains the same and all configurations remains the same, with the exception of services. In my case, on this particular system, I disabled a majority of services to get every drop of performance I can (system is the Nvidia ION platform with the Atom 330 (first Atom that is 64-bit and dual core), which runs at 1.6GHz, overclock to 2.1GHz and still not fast enough. Bottleneck is not the 5400RPM HDD, or GPU (GeForce 9400M with shared memory), it is the CPU by considerable margins. It is my HTPC, or like I like to call it, Netflix box. However, the services being rest, is something I expected. As Windows Update process is the same as passing from an older version of Windows to a new one, and not update system files like Service Packs or normal security updates. So services gets resets (they are not user based, so their configuration is not transferred).

[GoodBytes]

55 minutes ago, NowakVulpix said:

It affects my laptop, but not my desktop for some reason.

 

It'd be nice if Microsoft used the next Windows 10 update (presumably 1809) to fix all the annoying things about the operating system and making sure bugs like these would never happen in the first place instead of tacking on more useless features that barely add any value to the operating system, but that'd make sense and require a QA team instead of unpaid and most likely "I have no idea what I'm doing"-type Insiders, right? 

I mean tomorrow we will know, but MS mistake in all of this is that is releasing the version before final testing is done. From what I recall, there was always a "day 1" patch when a new version of Windows 10 is released, and releases it in waves based. Here, just to not rename "April Update" to "March Update" or meet some internal deadline, they released it on the last day of April, with an official date of May 8. (which I assume, and hope, is released in waves), and with the usual day 1 patch. So for anyone who hits "Check for updates", Between April 30th and May 8, will get this April Update, regardless if it past internal testing or not for your system (unless you run Enterprise edition of Windows, which you'll get the update much later). In other words, might as well join in the Insider Program in that period.

[Nowak]

1 minute ago, GoodBytes said:

I mean tomorrow we will know, but MS mistake in all of this is that is releasing the version before final testing is done. From what I recall, there was always a "day 1" patch when a new version of Windows 10 is released, and releases it in waves based. Here, just to not rename "April Update" to "March Update" or meet some internal deadline, they released it on the last day of April, with an official date of May 8. (which I assume, and hope, is released in waves), and with the usual day 1 patch

That's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that this bug never should have made it into the final product at all. It should have been found and fixed internally before release.

 

Remember when Microsoft had some form of quality control for releases, post-Windows Me? Yeah, those were the days 

[GoodBytes]

17 minutes ago, NowakVulpix said:

That's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that this bug never should have made it into the final product at all. It should have been found and fixed internally before release.

No to defend Microsoft, well considering that you have millions of Insiders in a market world where Chrome is the most used web browser, including within Microsoft, and there was no report of it, and that technically the release is not "final" until May 8 with its official release date... A "small" group of people who where affects by this issue is not bad situation.

 

17 minutes ago, NowakVulpix said:

Remember when Microsoft had some form of quality control for releases, post-Windows Me? Yeah, those were the days 

No I don't. You have selective memory. The forum is filled with Windows 8.x update issues, and update system not working.

Windows 7 was without exception... neither Vista, and XP (of course, on other forums as this one didn't exists).

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

If you want, but the official release date is tomorrow, and a MS update is expected on the same date.

Isn't it already released? I am not in the insider program on any of my computers, and yet I have two computers bugging me to install 1803.

 

55 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

privacy options where kept

By that you mean the old ones were kept. However, Microsoft has now introduced several new ones which are turned on by default. It is therefore highly recommended that you go through all your settings to make sure everything you want to be off, actually is off. Among other things, Windows 10 now logs all programs you run, when you last used them, what files were open within those programs, etc, and sends all that info to Microsoft.

This is a new setting so even if you had the similar things disabled before, you now to have to disable it in a different menu.

 

58 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

As Windows Update process is the same as passing from an older version of Windows to a new one, and not update system files like Service Packs or normal security updates.

Is this true and if it is, why...? Just why? Why can't it be installed like a normal update? Hell, why is Windows still so awful when it comes to updates? You shouldn't even need to restart your computer to install them.

[mrthuvi]

14 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Isn't it already released? I am not in the insider program on any of my computers, and yet I have two computers bugging me to install 1803.

 

 

It is since April 30. Official new iso release is 17134.1, yes the one with the Chrome&Cortana freezing bug.

[Nowak]

2 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

No I don't. You have selective memory. The forum is filled with Windows 8.x update issues, and update system not working.

Windows 7 was without exception... neither Vista, and XP (of course, on other forums as this one didn't exists).

I dunno, man. Windows 7 is still pretty rock-solid these days, if not a bit lacking in some modern features (like native USB 3.0 support). I mean, at least with Windows 7, you're in control of the damn experience. Windows 10 meanwhile treats you like you're stupid and knows what's best for you, and the best is (of course) the weak UWP/Microsoft ecosystem, and then there are bugs that go unfixed for eons while Microsoft is like "BUT TIMELINE!"

Who the hell asked for Timeline? Or pinning contacts to the taskbar? Who uses Cortana for anything more than searching their computer? Who wanted Cortana and the Mail app to choose Edge over the browser you explicitly told the operating system to use as the default? Who willingly chooses the excessively weak UWP ecosystem over the established and powerful Win32 ecosystem? The answer is nobody. Nobody but Microsoft asked for any of this. They add zero value to Windows, and frankly, Microsoft would be better off working on making Windows 10 into something that is actually the "best Windows", and not adding in new features that add zero value or breaking things every six months. Windows will never actually improve until Microsoft stops this.

[GoodBytes]

37 minutes ago, NowakVulpix said:

I dunno, man. Windows 7 is still pretty rock-solid these days.

Yes TODAY, Windows 7 is rock solid.

You have to remember that many people had issues when Service Pack came out. Those were of course fixed by either Microsoft, or users clean installing their system again (let alone being able to get the Service Pack to show up).

 

Windows 10 is an ongoing development. Microsoft constantly changing things on the back not only adding new features at the front. It's not just "same old Windows 10 with new features", is what I am saying. If you wonder, one of the things they are doing is transforming Windows 10 under the Polaris project, to be component base.

 

 

37 minutes ago, NowakVulpix said:

Who the hell asked for Timeline? Or pinning contacts to the taskbar? Who uses Cortana for anything more than searching their computer? Who wanted Cortana and the Mail app to choose Edge over the browser you explicitly told the operating system to use as the default?

Mail app opens with your default web browser.

Timeline was showed, and people got very excited about it. So clearly there is interest. Same for People feature. If you don't want these features, no problem, disable thema dn don't use them.

 

37 minutes ago, NowakVulpix said:

Who willingly chooses the excessively weak UWP ecosystem over the established and powerful Win32 ecosystem? The answer is nobody.

I am, and so as others. UWP apps delivers the best experience for convertible devices, and high DPI displays over Win32. The whole high-DPI aware issue that we face today is because of Win32. Devs aren't making GPU rendered interfaces and high-DPI aware ones. They are still to this date all CPU rendered.... WHY? I get it before, GPUs were this super expensive hardware that many system didn't have, beside select professionals and gamers (which was much smaller market share than today). But today, even some shitty Intel integrated graphics can handle a GUI just fine. It has the performance to draw. Why use the CPU to draw? They suck at is! Simple fact. That is why we have GPUs.

 

And you have apps that Win32 doesn't have. It's been how many years and we have no Facebook app on Win32? How about Twitter? How about Netflix? But now with UWP and PWA, we have those. Now you no longer need to open and keep open your web browser to get notifications, much like your smartphone, you have apps, which runs on the back getting push notification via the OS service.

 

[Nowak]

17 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Windows 10 is an ongoing development. Microsoft constantly changing things on the back not only adding new features at the front. It's not just "same old Windows 10 with new features", is what I am saying. If you wonder, one of the things they are doing is transforming Windows 10 under the Polaris project, to be component base.

Change for the sake of change is not always the best thing. I mean, if it wasn't broken, why fix it? And Win32 is still alive and well, regardless of what Microsoft wants.

 

17 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Mail app opens with your default web browser.

Doesn't mean Microsoft doesn't want to change that.

 

17 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Timeline was showed, and people got very excited about it.

Who got excited for it? What made them get excited about it? When did they get excited for it? Where was this excitement found? Why exactly did they get excited for it?

 

17 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

UWP apps delivers the best experience for convertible devices, and high DPI displays over Win32. The whole high-DPI aware issue that we face today is because of Win32. Devs aren't making GPU rendered interfaces and high-DPI aware ones. They are still to this date all CPU rendered.... WHY? I get it before, GPUs were this super expensive hardware that many system didn't have, beside select professionals and gamers (which was much smaller market share than today). But today, even some shitty Intel integrated graphics can handle a GUI just fine. It has the performance to draw. Why use the CPU to draw? They suck at is! Simple fact. That is why we have GPUs.

You got me there. Doesn't change the fact that the UWP ecosystem hasn't caught on with a majority of Windows users.

 

17 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

And you have apps that Win32 doesn't have. It's been how many years and we have no Facebook app on Win32? How about Twitter? How about Netflix? But now with UWP and PWA, we have those. Now you no longer need to open and keep open your web browser to get notifications, much like your smartphone, you have apps, which runs on the back getting push notification via the OS service.

Okay but why would I choose that when I can just grab my phone? I mean... it's right there, on my mouse mat. Could grab it at any time. Or how about I just use the web app? Don't even need to pick up my phone for that.

[GoodBytes]

1 hour ago, NowakVulpix said:

Change for the sake of change is not always the best thing. I mean, if it wasn't broken, why fix it? And Win32 is still alive and well, regardless of what Microsoft wants.

Yes, very well... like you know:

• Most apps are on phones and nothing on PC these days, disconnecting you from the phone and PC
• No Privacy control
• Full access to your hardware and documents/images/video, etc.
• No Sandboxed
• You are the mercy of the lazy developer (leaves files behind after uninstalling their app, can break the OS)
• Not high-DPI aware for most programs as most devs don't gives a damn as it is not a seen as selling a feature, despite demand, as mentioned before
• Not GPU rendered, as mentioned before
• No touch support (Windows does a compatibility mouse emulation thing to make it work). Devs has to do all the touch work to make it work, there is no standard platform, meaning touch experience can vary between apps, assuming they add it.
• Same as above but for pen support
• You are the mercy of devs auto-updater system, and you have a bunch of them, one for each app basically, or have nothing. UWP gives you 1 main one that handles everything
• WIn32 can send messages to another WIn32 program with 0 way to identify the message comes from where. Is it a Windows message, or a malware. Here is a virus exploiting this, checkout MEMZ. Plenty of YouTube Video. Ignore the crashing of the system, just look at what it can do at the visual level. Win32 message flaw, which can play with the drawing mechanics of Win32 window elements.

and more.

 

Quote

Doesn't mean Microsoft doesn't want to change that.

A/B Test for Insiders, and so far it is a no.

 

Quote

Okay but why would I choose that when I can just grab my phone? I mean... it's right there, on my mouse mat. Could grab it at any time. Or how about I just use the web app? Don't even need to pick up my phone for that.

'cause now you don't have to pick up your phone every 2 min to check it.  Web app requires you to have your web browser open. Why do you use ANY app on your phone when you can use the phone web browser? Same reason.

 

You might not care about these features, but as you can see on this very thread some people are interested about these feature. Every post I do on about a new version of Windows 10, you have people that are interested in some features, other like you doesn't care about anything, but the next update might be interested in a or some of the new features. Windows is not designed for only you.

[LAwLz]

8 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Yes TODAY, Windows 7 is rock solid.

You have to remember that many people had issues when Service Pack came out. Those were of course fixed by either Microsoft, or users clean installing their system again (let alone being able to get the Service Pack to show up).

Are you sure you want to compare the Windows 10 updates to service packs? I mean, there were a total of 2-ish service packs for Windows 7 released (actually just one official, and one "cumulative update"). So what you're describing happened once or twice for Windows 7.

Windows 10 came out less than 3 years ago and it has already happened 5 times.

 

I don't have any hard data for which one has been more stable, but I would be very surprised if Windows 7 have had even close to as many issues as Windows 10 have had. Your argument that one update for Windows 7 had some issues doesn't really shatter the idea that Windows 7 was very stable, while Windows 10 isn't.

 

8 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Windows 10 is an ongoing development. Microsoft constantly changing things on the back not only adding new features at the front. It's not just "same old Windows 10 with new features", is what I am saying. If you wonder, one of the things they are doing is transforming Windows 10 under the Polaris project, to be component base.

Just because you can explain why something is unstable and bad, doesn't mean it is acceptable.

Windows 10 is no longer a new product. It has been out for almost 3 years now, and it was and still is heavily forced upon users by Microsoft. 

 

8 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

The whole high-DPI aware issue that we face today is because of Win32.

If you by "Win32" mean "Microsoft did not give developers the tools to make it work, and it's a complicated mess on Windows" then yes, it is totally Win32's fault. It is slowly being fixed though thanks to the new APIs and settings Microsoft are developing.

 

8 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Devs aren't making GPU rendered interfaces and high-DPI aware ones. They are still to this date all CPU rendered.... WHY? I get it before, GPUs were this super expensive hardware that many system didn't have, beside select professionals and gamers (which was much smaller market share than today). But today, even some shitty Intel integrated graphics can handle a GUI just fine. It has the performance to draw. Why use the CPU to draw? They suck at is! Simple fact. That is why we have GPUs.

Well, that is only an issue if you are using Microsoft's standard tools such as WinForms. It's not an issue with let's say Qt. Once again, it's Microsoft tools that are inadequate.

 

7 hours ago, NowakVulpix said:

I mean, if it wasn't broken, why fix it?

Windows is horribly designed and is in desperate need of being reworked though.

It's good that they are trying to improve it, although I strongly disagree with the direction they are heading and the transition has been about as smooth and pleasant as dragging your hand against a shredder.

 

 

 

 

 

Also, @GoodBytes UWP is cancer and I really hope you stop pushing that garbage. I don't want my desktop to just be a big, dumb phone. I want my desktop to run proper programs and not just the twitter client.

I am also still waiting on this:

22 hours ago, LAwLz said:

I would like a citation for this too.

Preferably some better definition of what exactly is being deleted as well. What exactly is defined as "diagnostic data"?

[Nowak]

5 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Windows is horribly designed and is in desperate need of being reworked though.

It's good that they are trying to improve it, although I strongly disagree with the direction they are heading and the transition has been about as smooth and pleasant as dragging your hand against a shredder.

Oh, yeah. That's true, but in Microsoft's infinite wisdom, they'd rather push their vision rather than actually listening to customers when it comes to fixing Windows. Even if that vision is totally tone-deaf and doesn't match what their customers want at all, but it's not like they'll learn from repeated failure anyway.

 

See: Windows Phone, Windows RT, Windows 10 S and how Microsoft apparently learned nothing from those failures

[GoodBytes]

4 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Are you sure you want to compare the Windows 10 updates to service packs? I mean, there were a total of 2-ish service packs for Windows 7 released (actually just one official, and one "cumulative update"). So what you're describing happened once or twice for Windows 7.

Windows 10 came out less than 3 years ago and it has already happened 5 times.

Exactly. A simple set of updates (Service Pack) and many people had trouble.

 

4 hours ago, LAwLz said:

I don't have any hard data for which one has been more stable, but I would be very surprised if Windows 7 have had even close to as many issues as Windows 10 have had. Your argument that one update for Windows 7 had some issues doesn't really shatter the idea that Windows 7 was very stable, while Windows 10 isn't.

We are talking about Update success rate. Please stay on topic.

 

 

4 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Just because you can explain why something is unstable and bad, doesn't mean it is acceptable.

Windows 10 is no longer a new product. It has been out for almost 3 years now, and it was and still is heavily forced upon users by Microsoft. 

Windows 10 is always a new product. See it as Windows 13 if you want to compare the update to the old update model.

 

4 hours ago, LAwLz said:

If you by "Win32" mean "Microsoft did not give developers the tools to make it work, and it's a complicated mess on Windows" then yes, it is totally Win32's fault. It is slowly being fixed though thanks to the new APIs and settings Microsoft are developing.

Source, please.

 

4 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Well, that is only an issue if you are using Microsoft's standard tools such as WinForms. It's not an issue with let's say Qt. Once again, it's Microsoft tools that are inadequate.

What are you talking about?

 

4 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Windows is horribly designed and is in desperate need of being reworked though.

Source please.

 

 

4 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Also, @GoodBytes UWP is cancer and I really hope you stop pushing that garbage. I don't want my desktop to just be a big, dumb phone. I want my desktop to run proper programs and not just the twitter client.

I am also still waiting on this:

Again, source please.

[ScratchCat]

17 hours ago, Delicieuxz said:

A person might get by a couple of those large Windows 10 updates without noticeable OS degradation, but sooner or later they're going to get bit by modern Microsoft's greatly-reduced design, coding, and QA quality.

In their defense they did expand their testing department, to the general public.

Since Windows 10 was release it must have cause more frustration than Vista going from the number of issues found which in impressive.

16 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

No to defend Microsoft, well considering that you have millions of Insiders in a market world where Chrome is the most used web browser, including within Microsoft, and there was no report of it, and that technically the release is not "final" until May 8 with its official release date... A "small" group of people who where affects by this issue is not bad situation.

In regards to more general issues it would be expected that Microsoft could identify issues in a shorter period of time using the large amount of telemetry generated yet many bugs simply are not fixed for even wide spread issues, this leaves the question of why Microsoft implemented the full telemetry into stable builds if it is not used to fix bugs?

[LAwLz]

39 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Exactly. A simple set of updates (Service Pack) and many people had trouble.

Yep, and now people have those issues twice a year rather than once in 8 years.

 

40 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

We are talking about Update success rate. Please stay on topic.

Are we doing that, or are you doing that? The person you responded to did not seem to talk about that. To me it seemed like a more general comment on how stable the updates has been, and you seemed to have moved the goalpost to be just about service packs for Windows 7. I mean, you are comparing something that happened once in 8 years, with something happening twice a year now, and is somehow trying to make it sound like they are the same.

 

You could say that it is an unfair comparison (I assume that's why you try to do by saying I should think about it as Windows 13) because Microsoft now has a rolling feature release schedule, but that is not a valid excuse for pushing out broken update after broken update. If Microsoft can't handle this development cycle then they shouldn't follow it.

 

51 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Source, please.

Here you go. Some info, including a quote from Microsoft themselves saying their documentation is horrible and that they realize they need to update their APIs in order to let developers make properly DPI aware applications. Why are you pretending like you don't already know this? This is literally a post I replied to you with in the fall creators update.

On 2017-10-13 at 12:22 AM, LAwLz said:

You can not push all the blame to third party developers using custom GUI frameworks. Not even Microsoft has coded their programs for high DPI awareness properly.

Internet Explorer, Notepad and a bunch of other programs got proper support in the creators update for Windows 10. Before then they might have been partially high-DPI aware, but they couldn't do things such as scale accordingly if you moved the window from a high-DPI monitor to a low-DPI monitor.

 

Also, this is a direct quote from Peter Felts who works with high-DPI scaling in Windows, and this was posted in April this year (so fairly recently):

Quote

As of writing this blog, the high-DPI documentation available on MSDN is horribly outdated. The guides for writing per-monitor DPI aware applications were written in the Windows 8.1 timeframe and haven’t seen any significant updates since then. Also, many Windows API have DPI sensitivities that are not documented. That is to say that some Windows API will behave differently if they’re being called from a system-DPI-aware context vs. a per-monitor DPI aware context.

 

Here is a post about making Notepad per-monitor DPI aware. As you can see, it is fairly complicated (this is just for making it per-monitor-DPI-aware, since it was already system-DPI-aware). If Microsoft themselves had so many issues using their own APIs to turn a simple program like Notepad properly DPI aware then you really expect developers to put in the time and effort to do it either.

Hell, Microsoft even said:

Quote

We recognize that these, and many other, platform features are going to be needed by developers before they’re fully unblocked from updating their desktop applications to handle display scaling well.

 

Microsoft's APIs have been lackluster, and the documentation has too.

 

 

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

What are you talking about?

What I am saying is that the reason why so many Windows applications uses the CPU for rendering GUIs is because some of the standard Windows development tools provided by Microsoft doesn't support it.

For example WinForms. It's a GUI library in .NET. It uses the GDI+ APIs, which does not support GPU acceleration.

You try to make it sound like developers are choosing to render things on the CPU because they think it is fun. They "choose" to do it because some of the tools Microsoft provides them with doesn't support GPU rendering. 

That's what I am talking about, and that was my point.

 

 

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

Source please.

Kind of hard to narrow it down since it's broken in so many places.

The big problem is that it's about as modular as a brick, which Microsoft now tries to fix (according to you, with Polaris). Windows has a ton of dependencies within itself, which makes it incredibly difficult to upgrade just certain aspects without breaking other ones in the process.

 

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

Again, source please.

Source on what? UWP being cancer? If I were to list all the issues with UWP then Linus would run out of space on their server. Here are three very big issues:

Not cross platform. Not even within Microsoft's own product family.

It is extremely limited in what developers can do with it. Wanna do your own color management? Can't. Wanna read memory from other applications? Can't. Wanna detect what window is focused? Can't. The list goes on.

The language support is terrible. You can't get let's say asm code working without using some dirty linking and other hacks. Wanna use Vulcan over DirectX? Sorry, but UWP doesn't support anything outside of these Microsoft approved things.

[Sniperfox47]

@GoodBytes Also just to support @LAwLz here: QT, GTK, FLTK, GNUStep, EFL, and *many* other Linux targeted Widget frameworks not only support Windows, but support Cairo based GPU accelerated drawing *on* windows... and yet Microsoft's own GUI toolkits can't be half-assed bothered. That's not on Win32, that's on Microsoft.

[linkboy]

Been running it for about a week now and my computer is still running great. The update actually fixed one issue I've been having. I would get severe lag with my Bluetooth mouse (Logitech Anywhere MX2s) but since I upgraded, it's been smooth sailing.

[GoodBytes]

44 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Yep, and now people have those issues twice a year rather than once in 8 years.

8 years there is a service pack? What?

 

44 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Here you go. Some info, including a quote from Microsoft themselves saying their documentation is horrible and that they realize they need to update their APIs in order to let developers make properly DPI aware applications. Why are you pretending like you don't already know this? This is literally a post I replied to you with in the fall creators update.

Invalid source. Pick a better source.

APIs were there, and documented. You miss understood the the quote completely. You just read some words making an idea out of it, instead of understanding everything.

 

 

44 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

What I am saying is that the reason why so many Windows applications uses the CPU for rendering GUIs is because some of the standard Windows development tools provided by Microsoft doesn't support it.

For example WinForms. It's a GUI library in .NET. It uses the GDI+ APIs, which does not support GPU acceleration.

You try to make it sound like developers are choosing to render things on the CPU because they think it is fun. They "choose" to do it because some of the tools Microsoft provides them with doesn't support GPU rendering. 

That's what I am talking about, and that was my point.

No. You are confusing hardware acceleration, and support for 2D and 3D canvas, with full GPU rendered.

 

 

44 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Source on what? UWP being cancer? If I were to list all the issues with UWP then Linus would run out of space on their server.

Source of this fact please.

 

44 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Here are three very big issues:

Not cross platform. Not even within Microsoft's own product family.

It is extremely limited in what developers can do with it. Wanna do your own color management? Can't. Wanna read memory from other applications? Can't. Wanna detect what window is focused? Can't. The list goes on.

The language support is terrible. You can't get let's say asm code working without using some dirty linking and other hacks. Wanna use Vulcan over DirectX? Sorry, but UWP doesn't support anything outside of these Microsoft approved things.

So it has some limitation today that most program aren't affected. How is that a diseases?

[LAwLz]

2 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

8 years there is a service pack? What?

Windows 7 has been out for 8 years, and it has received one service pack.

Your argument that "Windows 7 wasn't perfect because it had issues when the service pack came out" is comparing an occurance that happened once over an 8 year period (a service pack was released) to something that happens biannually.

 

2 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Invalid source. Pick a better source.

APIs were there, and documented. You miss understood the the quote completely. You just read some words making an idea out of it, instead of understanding everything.

I think it's amazing that not even a direct quote from a senior engineer at Microsoft counts as a valid source to you. Please explain to me how

Quote

The high-DPI documentation available on MSDN is horribly outdated

and

Quote

We recognize that these, and many other, platform features are going to be needed by developers before they’re fully unblocked from updating their desktop applications to handle display scaling well.

can be interpreted in any other way?

 

Here is another quote, where Peter Felts says that they have only added initial DPI scaling support to WinForms (this was posted less than a year ago). It's about 5 minutes into the video.

Quote

We are looking at the blockers, the things that are preventing you from updating your application, and adding that support to Windows. So for example you need WinForms to handle automatic DPI scaling, or have per-monitor support. So that's something we looked at and we added the initial functionality for that in the Creators update.

So for WinForm users, it was either scrap your entire program and start from scratch, or just not have your program be properly DPI-aware (such as per-monitor support, or supporting a change in DPI). Those were your options. Now, Microsoft has started providing those developers with the tools necessary to implement it.

 

 

2 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

No. You are confusing hardware acceleration, and support for 2D and 3D canvas, with full GPU rendered.

OK, please explain to me how "GPU rendered" is different from "hardware accelerated and support for 2D and 3D canvas".

 

 

2 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

Source of this fact please.

Now you're just being silly.

 

2 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

So it has some limitation today that most program aren't affected. How is that a diseases?

You don't think code portability, functionality limitations and support for different tools and languages are issues? Are you high?

Those are the major reasons why UWP isn't taking off.

[GoodBytes]

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Windows 7 has been out for 8 years, and it has received one service pack.

Yup, and people had issues installing it. It was far from perfect. Hence the point.  This conversation is over, as you are keep changing the topic of conversation in a desperate attempt to say you are right.

 

 

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I think it's amazing that not even a direct quote from a senior engineer at Microsoft counts as a valid source to you. Please explain to me how

and can be interpreted in any other way?

The link you posted is you thread with your own interpretation. I had to dig through the actual source get proper context.

It was not talking about High-DPI aware calls. I was making high-DPI aware programs back in XP, Everything was properly documented and I was still in high school.

He was referring to the active changes that they have been doing to the PER MONITOR high-DPI aware.

 

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OK, please explain to me how "GPU rendered" is different from "hardware accelerated and support for 2D and 3D canvas".

Hardware accelerated means you use the hardware to help in some effects or help in the drawing process, which that information is given to the CPU to output the results instead of doing the calculations itself.  2D/3D Canvas is having an area of the application which you use OpenGL or DirectX or something else to render a 2D or 3D scene, which yes, that can be a GUI, but the dev has to code everything. mouse tracking to know if the mouse is over a button to change the state, and every other element. They might be able to implement another framework to fill that need so that they don't need to code raw window components to make their life easier.

 

Quote

Now you're just being silly.

Silly at what? You are the ones with big claims that can't even list anything without scratching the bucket and exaggerating impacts, and asking me sources on clear statements.

 

Quote

You don't think code portability, functionality limitations and support for different tools and languages are issues? Are you high?

Those are the major reasons why UWP isn't taking off.

You are just panicking because UWP doesn't play fine with Wine.

UWP isn't growing because the industry has shifted to smartphone. Ignoring custom apps and games, what new, big, non system tweak app has appeared under Windows? Why current fully functional ones, should be recoded for UWP? Vivaldi? yay...

 

[Sniperfox47]

34 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Hardware accelerated means you use the hardware to help in some effects or help in the drawing process, which that information is given to the CPU to output the results instead of doing the calculations itself.  2D/3D Canvas is having an area of the application which you use OpenGL or DirectX or something else to render a 2D or 3D scene, which yes, that can be a GUI, but the dev has to code everything. mouse tracking to know if the mouse is over a button to change the state, and every other element. They might be able to implement another framework to fill that need so that they don't need to code raw window components to make their life easier.

What the hell are you talking about? Cairo -what QT uses, as well as GTK and all those other Unix oriented toolkits- is specifically about drawing straight to a framebuffer in hardware... Cairo *is* a 2D/3D canvas framework... that uses OpenGL, Imagebuffers, Windows GDI, or any number of other hardware based backends...

 

Your arguments aren't making any sense.

34 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

 

You are just panicking because UWP doesn't play fine with Wine.

UWP isn't growing because the industry has shifted to smartphone. Ignoring custom apps and games, what new, big, non system tweak app has appeared under Windows? Why current fully functional ones, should be recoded for UWP? Vivaldi? yay...

 

Who's strawmanning now? Wine? Who brought up Wine? How about OpenGL? OpenCL? OpenVG? Vulkan? CUDA? Any number of other open standards that require driver and system backing?

 

P.S. literally all of those are supported on every major non-apple modern OS... Unless you use UWP with Windows... And correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't all of them even supported on iOS and MacOS other than Vulkan?

 

Edit: yeah even CUDA is supported on Mac...