FCC Chairman Ajit Pai Opposes White House Plan For Government Run 5G Network

[NTDaws]

On 1/29/2018 at 10:56 AM, AlwaysFSX said:

To be fair, Pai is right. The government trying to do anything with infrastructure is a fucking disaster. And it'll end up costing tax payers more money than if you just let companies do it themselves.

Good thing I live in Canada, I can run to Linus's warehouse and have a sleep over.

[Jito463]

13 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Same with health, depending on who you ask it's either Canada

Canada?  Seriously?!  Last I heard, there was a 6-month waiting list just to get a personal doctor.  Admittedly that was a while ago, but even if that's improved, I'd hardly call that a great system.  In any event, we've got fundamentally different views when it comes to government, and I'm tired of bantering about it today.  I'm sure there'll be another opportunity later, but for now I've got more important things to do (like get my apartment cleaned up).

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, Jito463 said:

I concede that it's an assumption on my part, but here in the US we don't generally like having the public sector (government) directly competing with the private sector.  There's too much conflict of interest when you have government - which is literally incapable of running out of money (at least, not so long as there's people to tax) - competing against private companies which must make a profit in order to stay running and continue employing people.

But the government would not be competing against private companies in the system I proposed.

The government would just supply ISPs with (optional) infrastructure against fees. People would still need a contract which the providers would handle. The government would not sell data direct to consumers (at least they don't in Sweden).

 

It seems to me like you have misunderstood what I am suggesting.

Here is what I have been talking about this entire thread (and all threads about fiber rollout as well), broken down into easy to understand points.

 

1) The federal government creates clear goals such as "90% coverage with minimum download speeds of 30Mbps". Those numbers are just examples by the way. No need for anyone to nitpick them. It might be 99% coverage and 10Mbps or whatever the task force decides would be a clear improvement over what already exists, but still realistic goals and time frames.

2) These goals are assigned to smaller geographical locations. For example the local government in a city should reach these goals within their boarders in order to accomplish the goals. It's not "99% coverage in all of the US or else we have failed!". It's "the goal for Mexico City is to have 99% coverage with a minimum of 10Mbps download speeds".

3) Local governments gets tasked to employ local resources (private or public workers) to build the infrastructure.

4) Private companies can get things such as tax breaks if they contribute to the goals being reached in a substantial way.

5) When the government built network is operational ISPs and carriers can lease portions of the infrastructure for reasonable prices. This will help the governement recoup their investment and it also dramatically lowers the bar for starting an ISP, since you can instantly reach a massive amount of people without putting up a single tower or digging down cables.

6) Private people can't buy access directly from the government. They still need to go through an ISP so it's not like ISPs will compete with the government. The difference will be that there will be more ISPs that will compete.

7) If large ISPs want a competitive advantage such as better coverage or higher speeds than the government owned infrastructure offers, they can choose to build their own towers just like they have today.

 

And before you say that you don't trust the government to build and do maintenance on the network, the municipality I live in does not have that expertise either. That's why they hire consultants from private companies such as the one I work for to do a lot of the work for them. Hell, they don't even do their own surveys. My colleague did their yearly status report and determined that about 30 switches needs to be replaced (and some changes to the configurations), which I am currently tasked with doing in collaboration with the governments own IT team.

[mr moose]

10 minutes ago, Jito463 said:

Canada?  Seriously?!  Last I heard, there was a 6-month waiting list just to get a personal doctor.  Admittedly that was a while ago, but even if that's improved, I'd hardly call that a great system.  In any event, we've got fundamentally different views when it comes to government, and I'm tired of bantering about it today.  I'm sure there'll be another opportunity later, but for now I've got more important things to do (like get my apartment cleaned up).

There is a 6 month waiting list to for elective surgery if you want it paid for by public health.   There is no waiting list for emergence, urgent or to see a doctor as far as I know. I will concede Canada are not in the top 3 but they are in the top ten.  Again everyone who studies this comes outs with different results, but overall the variance isn't huge.

 

Here is an article with a great graph that ranks countries by various metrics,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-17/australian-healthcare-ranked-second-best-in-developed-world/8716326

 

 

[leadeater]

9 minutes ago, Jito463 said:

Canada?  Seriously?!  Last I heard, there was a 6-month waiting list just to get a personal doctor.  Admittedly that was a while ago, but even if that's improved, I'd hardly call that a great system.  In any event, we've got fundamentally different views when it comes to government, and I'm tired of bantering about it today.  I'm sure there'll be another opportunity later, but for now I've got more important things to do (like get my apartment cleaned up).

Those wait times usually come from people that do not understand the health care system of the country they are talking about. All these national health care systems have provisions in them for prioritization as well as augmenting with private health care or health insurance. If you need to see a doctor you always can, it may be your GP, emergency medical center or a hospital but regardless you always can.

 

The wait times you mention are for registering for long term medical care with a GP, there is a shortage of GPs in most countries likely including the US. As more people actually have the means to get long term medical care from a GP the more you need, with the US having historically less people per capita being able to get such care the demand is lower however that is increasing due to recent law changes.

 

There's no real perfect system and problems will exist but fundamentally every citizen having access to medical care and a minimum guaranteed level of medical care is a good thing, no one should have to be sick longer than they should just by having a lack of access to care. What that minimum is should be left up to each country as their views and funding will cover different things, but having people not covered at all is bad and basic emergency hospital care is inadequate. 

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

There's no real perfect system and problems will exist but fundamentally every citizen having access to medical care and a minimum guaranteed level of medical care is a good thing, no one should have to be sick longer than they should just by having a lack of access to care. What that minimum is should be left up to each country as their views and funding will cover different things, but having people not covered at all is bad and basic emergency hospital care is inadequate. 

Absolutely, but I think the important thing here is that when people compare systems they should not be comparing the worst aspect of one health system to the best aspect of another.  Which seems to happen all to often.  Which is why I like these broad meta-style studies into health Systems.   

[Skanky Sylveon]

Quote

and set rules that encourage the private sector to develop and deploy next-generation infrastructure

...

[Aeternalis]

15 hours ago, mr moose said:

This is reoccurring argument in nearly every thread from internet through health to tax and corporate law. 

 

Time for a new government,  we are not talking about things that are intrinsically hard, if they can't do it, then vote someone in who can. Change the system.  As has been said, governments all around the world can manage to do these things and do them exceptionally well, so the problem lies specifically with your government. 

 

The fact of the matter is there is nothing intrinsic to the nature of telecommunications, healthcare, internet, tax, power generation, etc that makes it unfair to be state run.  Any issues you encounter are ideological issues that can be overcome with good management. 

 

 

A US government that is functional would require people to stop voting for the Reps and Dems. That's not going to happen.

[mr moose]

7 hours ago, Aeternalis said:

A US government that is functional would require people to stop voting for the Reps and Dems. That's not going to happen.

Then I am afraid what you have over there is some sort of cultural runaway.  Where the ideals that are preventing growth and promoting oligopolies are only enforced and not challenged by the people because said ideals and culture of the nation are so embedded in the mindset of the people they will not be changed.

 

 

[Aeternalis]

32 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Then I am afraid what you have over there is some sort of cultural runaway.  Where the ideals that are preventing growth and promoting oligopolies are only enforced and not challenged by the people because said ideals and culture of the nation are so embedded in the mindset of the people they will not be changed.

 

 

Political apathy is the cancer over here. If not that, than painful polarization.

 

Almost anyone that cares about politics over here is either a hard conservative or a hard liberal with no breathing room for the voices of moderates or the other political parties. I'm a centrist which makes it harder on me since I refuse to choose a side of the feces covered coin.

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, Aeternalis said:

. I'm a centrist which makes it harder on me since I refuse to choose a side of the feces covered coin.

Me too, which makes us a target because either side of the political debate sees us as the opposing force.   I have had that many people accuse me of being a fanboy for both parties in Australia simply because I call out bad policies regardless of which side they come from.  

 

I fully understand why so many of the younger generations are starting to come through the various political systems completely disillusioned with government.   The biggest concern I have is that it seems to be worse now than it was 15 years ago.   Every generation thinks the older generations doesn't get it (that they are ruining the future), nothing new under the sun there, but Unfortunately with such polarization and cultural effects we are seeing in the US it seems to be much more pronounced over there.

[Beowulff83]

On 1/30/2018 at 5:12 PM, LAwLz said:

Here is what I have been talking about this entire thread (and all threads about fiber rollout as well), broken down into easy to understand points

You may have a well thought out plan but the problem at hand is the US Government's plan for nationwide 5G coverage will be nothing like points you have listed.

[ARikozuM]

2 minutes ago, Beowulff83 said:

You may have a well thought out plan but the problem at hand is the US Government's plan for nationwide 5G coverage will be nothing like points you have listed.

Clairvoyance? Magic 8-ball? Tarot cards? Or just pulmonic vapor? 

[Beowulff83]

4 minutes ago, ARikozuM said:

Clairvoyance? Magic 8-ball? Tarot cards? Or just pulmonic vapor?

LOL, well I can't be sure, But just looking at the past 100 years of garbage coming out of D.C. is a good indicator there will be little to no common sense implemented in the proposal.

[LAwLz]

4 hours ago, Beowulff83 said:

LOL, well I can't be sure, But just looking at the past 100 years of garbage coming out of D.C. is a good indicator there will be little to no common sense implemented in the proposal.

So you have no idea how it would actually work, but you are against it based on the assumption that it would be bad?

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

So you have no idea how it would actually work, but you are against it based on the assumption that it would be bad?

To be fair we are talking about the US government.  You and I are in many ways spoilt with our political and cultural advantages.

[Taf the Ghost]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/josh-rogin/wp/2018/02/02/national-security-council-official-behind-5g-memo-leaves-white-house/

 

The person that proposed the 5G plan got politely told, "your services are not needed anymore". 

 

All administrations do planning documents for new, major infrastructure projects, but advocating for Federal control of 5G seemed really strange. I think the General was looking for a "feather-bedded" landing somewhere.

[mr moose]

3 hours ago, Taf the Ghost said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/josh-rogin/wp/2018/02/02/national-security-council-official-behind-5g-memo-leaves-white-house/

 

The person that proposed the 5G plan got politely told, "your services are not needed anymore". 

 

All administrations do planning documents for new, major infrastructure projects, but advocating for Federal control of 5G seemed really strange. I think the General was looking for a "feather-bedded" landing somewhere.

Given his detail was up and they didn't renew it, he may just be a scapegoat. 

 

Who knows with that bowl of noodles of a government.

[suicidalfranco]

Meanwhile in Italy: Enel, the state owned electrify and gas company is laying out fibre everywhere in a new initiative called OpenFibra, all ISP will be able to bring their services in through this new public infrastrutture. This will be fibre to your house, not the last mile kind. And yes, it will even come to my house who's placed far away from the urban area surrounded by crops on all 4 cardinal points 

[ARikozuM]

4 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

Meanwhile in Italy: 

You know your country is behind the times when Europe's boot is progressing faster than yours... 

 

No offense intended to Italy, all offense intended to the US of A. 

[mr moose]

10 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

Meanwhile in Italy: Enel, the state owned electrify and gas company is laying out fibre everywhere in a new initiative called OpenFibra, all ISP will be able to bring their services in through this new public infrastrutture. This will be fibre to your house, not the last mile kind. And yes, it will even come to my house who's placed far away from the urban area surrounded by crops on all 4 cardinal points 

It's not really a complicated concept is it.  Essential services infrastructure owned and operated by the government and private enterprise handles the retail side.  No monopolies, no unfair advantages no oligopolies.  Any issues with slow speeds and services are genuine geographical feasibility issues that will be rectified over time.

 

 

[kokakolia]

12 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

Meanwhile in Italy: Enel, the state owned electrify and gas company is laying out fibre everywhere in a new initiative called OpenFibra, all ISP will be able to bring their services in through this new public infrastrutture. This will be fibre to your house, not the last mile kind. And yes, it will even come to my house who's placed far away from the urban area surrounded by crops on all 4 cardinal points 

Yeah, and you guys pay a measly 15 euro a month for unlimited data on your phones all over Europe. 

 

North America just looks bad compared to Europe in so many ways. 

[Taf the Ghost]

8 hours ago, ARikozuM said:

You know your country is behind the times when Europe's boot is progressing faster than yours... 

 

No offense intended to Italy, all offense intended to the US of A. 

If you take the 50 US States by area, the USA is ~32 times larger. If you take just the Lower 48, the USA is ~26 times larger than Italy.

 

Italy has a population around 60 million, while the USA's is around 320 million, which is a bit over 5 times larger.

 

Italy has that entire population in an area that sits between the sizes of the States of Arizona & New Mexico. (AZ slightly smaller, NM slightly bigger.) 

 

I just realized I've been explaining this same reality for almost 20 years. Seoul, South Korea & Tokyo, Japan have the world's best Internet speeds for a reason, and it isn't just because they're amazingly industrious people.

 

Then, depending on the metrics you look up, most of the NE States in the USA have higher average speeds, already, than nearly all of Europe. Though at somewhat higher prices.

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, Taf the Ghost said:

If you take the 50 US States by area, the USA is ~32 times larger. If you take just the Lower 48, the USA is ~26 times larger than Italy.

 

Italy has a population around 60 million, while the USA's is around 320 million, which is a bit over 5 times larger.

 

Italy has that entire population in an area that sits between the sizes of the States of Arizona & New Mexico. (AZ slightly smaller, NM slightly bigger.) 

 

I just realized I've been explaining this same reality for almost 20 years. Seoul, South Korea & Tokyo, Japan have the world's best Internet speeds for a reason, and it isn't just because they're amazingly industrious people.

 

Then, depending on the metrics you look up, most of the NE States in the USA have higher average speeds, already, than nearly all of Europe. Though at somewhat higher prices.

It's not like you have to cover the whole area of the state though, most of the land in large states is not inhabited. Population wise most US states are still rather dense and you can focus on the largest cities first. Big things only look hard when you look at them on the whole, focus areas are much simpler which if you repeat 100,000 times over you've done the one big thing that looked hard.

 

When they did the UFB deployment here they broke up every city in to 2-6 block sections and assigned them all deployment dates, work was only carried out in a set number of sections in each city to the maximum workman capacity of the companies doing the deployment. The next segment was not started until the last was completed. As each segment was completed households could immediately sign up to the new network and go from 9-12 Mbps ADSL to 30/50/100/1000 Mbps fibre.

https://ufb.org.nz/maps/

 

That's the thing about the internet and networks; segmenting, scale, distribution, autonomous areas are fundamental to it so doing things in small chunks or large scale isn't any harder or fixed configuration and cannot be changed.

 

Personally it is my view that land area has nothing to do with it.

 

Edit:

Thing is if ISPs deploy fibre, like GPON, cable companies go from being first class citizens of the cable to equal citizens of the fibre cable. They no longer have full say over it or the technological requirement to, GPON has different wave lengths for Internet, TV, Phone which can all have full uncontested bandwidth i.e. no more splitting up of signal spectrum for up/down/tv/phone etc. Not only that you can get each of the 3 main services from different providers, you don't HAVE to get a package deal. 

[suicidalfranco]

2 hours ago, kokakolia said:

Yeah, and you guys pay a measly 15 euro a month for unlimited data on your phones all over Europe. 

nah, mate. That's what we, Italians, pay for our fibre internet. Unlimited mobile data is still a far away dream (unless you count the free access to internet once you hit your data cap with the condition that you'll be locked at 128 kbps as unlimited)