DX12, what was promised and what we got .. a rainbow shitting unicorn

[Guest Kloaked]

48 minutes ago, SamStrecker said:

It isn't DX12s fault, it is lazy devs. 

There's a time to say "lazy devs" and this isn't one of them. DX12 and even Vulkan is new. We're not going to see significant changes with these APIs compared to older ones since they're new. Right now is the experimentation phase I guess you could call it where they're learning. I've mildly read through the surface of the DX12 documentation and in my opinion, there's no way developers are going to learn how to use DX12 properly for a loooooooooooooong time - the more serious developers will go for Vulkan since it's platform agnostic and may offer better features for better experiences.

 

This is why it baffled me that people actually thought an indie studio like the Ark developers were going to actually port their game to DX12 - now they're promising Vulkan and I doubt it'll be an actual tangible thing for another three years compared to DX11, 10 and 9.

[XenosTech]

1 minute ago, goodtofufriday said:

I always try to tell this to people. No one seems to care. 

 

If a game isnt built from the ground up usimg dx12 then you won't see the benefits. 

 

People are basically complaining that a Lamborghini engine doesnt perform all that well when placed in a honda civic. 

Shouldn't it be the other way around ? fast looking car with a under-powered engine ?

[goodtofufriday]

Just now, XenosTech said:

Shouldn't it be the other way around ? fast looking car with a under-powered engine ?

Its game "engine". Get it? 

 

Bad joke i know =(

[flibberdipper]

15 minutes ago, zMeul said:

you are comparing DX12 to Doom!?!?

Doom uses OpenGL and Vulkan - OpenGL is still inferior, in perf, to DX11

He was comparing DX12 to Vulkan and how DOOM was one of few games to properly use Vulkan. Your eyes, use them.

[Sakkura]

39 minutes ago, zMeul said:

are you testing CPUs or GPUs?!

the idea of a API benchmark is to apply the workload on the GPU

Not when the whole point of the new APIs was to reduce the CPU workload and distribute it better across multiple cores.

 

These are graphics APIs, but that doesn't mean they only have to do with GPU performance.

[zMeul]

Just now, tmcclelland455 said:

He was comparing DX12 to Vulkan and how DOOM was one of few games to properly use Vulkan. Your eyes, use them.

properly using Vulkan to what!?!? Doom is about the only retail game out there that uses Vulkan

 

Talos principle uses Vulkan in a wrapper!!

[zMeul]

1 minute ago, Sakkura said:

Not when the whole point of the new APIs was to reduce the CPU workload and distribute it better across multiple cores.

DX11 already does that, case in point?! look at the benchmarks

[Sakkura]

Just now, zMeul said:

DX11 already does that, case in point?! look at the benchmarks

No it does not. And the comment you were replying to earlier was specifically calling for a more CPU-bottlenecked scenario to better examine how the APIs stacked up there.

[zMeul]

14 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

No it does not. And the comment you were replying to earlier was specifically calling for a more CPU-bottlenecked scenario to better examine how the APIs stacked up there.

I seriously suggest you do some research

the only bottleneck DX11 in regards to CPUs is draw calls - that's it!

[randomhkkid]

If you are interested into more nitty gritty stuff this talk given by the head of the studio that does Deus Ex sheds more light on why DX12 hasn't been adopted as widely as some would hope.

https://www.techpowerup.com/231079/is-directx-12-worth-the-trouble

 

TL;DR

DX12 is not a magical api that will speed up games just by porting their engines to it. DX12 memory management is tricky, it takes a lot of effort to do and many developers don't have the resources to do it well enough to make it worth it as tools are not mature enough yet. Multi-GPU support is theoretically cool but almost no one has more than one GPU.

[FAQBytes]

 

And if you don't believe those photos because they're "AMD marketing wank", http://www.legitreviews.com/maxwell-gpu-users-get-nvidia-vxao-ambient-occlusion-technology_179773

[ivan134]

Useless test. Low level APIs are supposed to help the CPU and yet the 480 is being tested at 1440p where the GPU is doing all the work. Testing a Pascal cards is also useless. Lemme know when they test the 480 at 1080p.

[AresKrieger]

This is a good thing not a bad thing, who the hell wants microsofts next attempt at monopolization of the gaming market on pc to succeed certainly not me, Vulkan is what we should want improvements on not Dx windows 10 edition

[zMeul]

12 minutes ago, FAQBytes said:

And if you don't believe those photos because they're "AMD marketing wank"

that's general marketing wank

games that pooped from MS' own game studios perform better in DX11

 

 

[MageTank]

1 hour ago, SamStrecker said:

It isn't DX12s fault, it is lazy devs. 

Funny. I said the exact same thing, and got taken completely out of context in another zMeul thread. 

 

 

People seem to think that giving programmers/developers more tools, faster hardware, better API's, etc automatically translate to better, faster games, but it doesn't. What it translates to, is developers being able to be lazier since they can simply blame hardware not being fast enough (or being so poorly optimized that you NEED extreme hardware to be able to run it at launch... cough, AC:U, cough). 

 

No matter the API, no matter how much of the hardware you let the developer access, it simply will not matter if the devs are lazy, or rushed by their studio executives. Look at Witcher 3. They were a small team, they worked hard, and didn't have a studio breathing down their neck, and delivered a masterpiece of a game. Then you have Andromeda, which took 5 years, had a massive budget, and we ended up with what visually looks like Sims In Space ft Nick Cage levels of acting (not that Nick Cage is bad, I love him). I can't speak about Andromeda's performance (have yet to play it) but my point is: no amount of time or money can fix lazy or rushed dev teams. 

[FAQBytes]

2 minutes ago, zMeul said:

they are general marketing wank

games that pooped from MS' own game studios perform better in DX11

DX12, while not yet improving the top end of the results, has been a definite boost for mid-range PCs, which a far greater number pf people use, especially when compared to 7700k's and 1080tis. 

https://www.hardocp.com/article/2016/04/19/dx11_vs_dx12_intel_cpu_scaling_gaming_framerate/

 

These benefits will come in time as the technology matures. Again, this is historically evident from every other API that's come out.

[Sakkura]

44 minutes ago, zMeul said:

I seriously suggest you do some research

the only bottleneck DX11 in regards to CPUs is draw calls - that's it!

Draw calls run on the CPU, you walnut.

[zMeul]

3 minutes ago, MageTank said:

Look at Witcher 3. They were a small team, they worked hard, and didn't have a studio breathing down their neck, and delivered a masterpiece of a game. Then you have Andromeda, which took 5 years, had a massive budget, and we ended up with what visually looks like Sims In Space ft Nick Cage levels of acting (not that Nick Cage is bad, I love him). I can't speak about Andromeda's performance (have yet to play it) but my point is: no amount of time or money can fix lazy or rushed dev teams. 

I wonder what parallel universe have you spawned from? CDP a small studio? please tell me how many developers have their own publishing company? oh . that's right

 

as for TW3, are you ignoring the downgrade-a-ton? the 2 or 3 was it rescheduling of the release date ...

 

sure there are shit devs, there are also devs that are in the same camp where the API was build; and you also have devs who made tech demos for one HW manufacturer and called it a game

 

gimme' a break!

[zMeul]

4 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

Draw calls run on the CPU, you walnut.

that's exactly the fucking point

since you don't have the limit of the draw calls you are no longer CPU bound but GPU bound - and guess what!? it doesn't perform better ..

 

 

 

or is it because "we" weren't draw call bound in the 1st place, eh 

[Sakkura]

Just now, zMeul said:

that's exactly the fucking point

since you don't have the limit of the draw calls you are no longer CPU bound but GPU bound - and guess what!? it doesn't perform better .. or worse

 

That's again dependent on the situation for crying out loud. In some situations draw calls are going to be more of a problem than in others.

[Doobeedoo]

I mean what's new here. Games come either broken and poorly optimized, in general. On top of that port to new API does shit if only done so. I want to see games build from ground up on DX12 with actual good coding and optimizations done. Porting games won't do nothing really. Devs need more time to learn the new API and actually use it to it's full potential.

[zMeul]

2 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

That's again dependent on the situation for crying out loud. In some situations draw calls are going to be more of a problem than in others.

if the draw calls is a problem then the game was developed by shitheads

remember Assassin's Creed something ?

[zMeul]

10 minutes ago, FAQBytes said:

DX12, while not yet improving the top end of the results, has been a definite boost for mid-range PCs, which a far greater number pf people use, especially when compared to 7700k's and 1080tis. 

https://www.hardocp.com/article/2016/04/19/dx11_vs_dx12_intel_cpu_scaling_gaming_framerate/

 

These benefits will come in time as the technology matures. Again, this is historically evident from every other API that's come out.

Ashes bench is the wrong tool to use to compare the APIs because it's CPU bound

if you actually go and play the game you will find that it plays just fine even tho the benchmark run spews horrible FPS

[Sakkura]

1 minute ago, zMeul said:

if the draw calls is a problem then the game was developed by shitheads

remember Assassin's Creed something ?

Having fewer performance constraints is helpful.

[MageTank]

1 minute ago, zMeul said:

I wonder what parallel universe have you spawned from? CDP a small studio? please tell me how many developers have their own publishing company? oh . that's right

 

as for TW3, are you ignoring the downgrade-a-ton? the 2 or 3 was it rescheduling of the release date ...

 

sure there are shit devs, there are also devs that are in the same camp where the API was build; and you also have devs who made tech demos for one HW manufacturer and called it a game

 

gimme' a break!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD_Projekt (Number of employees: 370)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BioWare (Number of employees: 800 from 2010, no idea what it is now)

 

I'd consider half of bioware to be pretty small. Not to mention they are part of EA, which has several thousand employees. In fact, the total number of in-house employees working on Witcher 3, was 240, with 1500 working on it globally for 2 years with a 7.5M budget. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Witcher_3:_Wild_Hunt#Development

 

Bioware had 200 employees from 3 of their studios working on ME:A for 5 years, with contractors from various EA companies stepping in over the course of that development. Granted, CDPR uses their own engine, and Bioware kinda changed gears mid-development, it still makes you question how studios with similar man-hours, and nearly 5x the budget can manage to release an aesthetically poor game. Especially once you factor in their older titles looking better.

 

Also, I am not ignoring the "downgrade" or reschedules. ME:A suffered similar delays (of nearly 2 years) and it's leaked footage looked far better than what was just released. My point is, TW3's finished product still looks better. 

 

I like you zMeul. You are one of the few people that argue with me anymore. We need to do this more often.