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Seagate Archive Drives Investigation

nicklmg
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anybody have the same issue? linus or linustechtips don't work

love.png

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1 minute ago, wrathoftheturkey said:

nope

i mean the calculator sheet

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I love the animations used in the video by the way.

"We're all in this together, might as well be friends" Tom, Toonami.

 

mini eLiXiVy: my open source 65% mechanical PCB, a build log, PCB anatomy and discussing open source licenses: https://linustechtips.com/topic/1366493-elixivy-a-65-mechanical-keyboard-build-log-pcb-anatomy-and-how-i-open-sourced-this-project/

 

mini_cardboard: a 4% keyboard build log and how keyboards work: https://linustechtips.com/topic/1328547-mini_cardboard-a-4-keyboard-build-log-and-how-keyboards-work/

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Posted (edited)

Your spreadsheet has some errors. You only need 13 drives of 8TB to get 104 TB capacity, so the actual price is a bit lower too. And you should only need 17 6TB drives to get over 100TB as well, so that price should be lower as well.

 

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Edit: Forget about it, I'm dumb.

Edited by Hyrikan
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This was interesting... Now the real test for home users: How well do archive drives work in something like a Synology or QNAP box?

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Considering the low cost I'd be interested in hearing about how they perform in RAID 1.  In theory from the disk's perspective RAID 1 should be identical to a single drive.

 

Also could a tiered storage solution be beneficial with these?  SSD write cache, a few high performance spinning disks for regularly read data, and the archive drives doing what they do best?

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2 hours ago, nicklmg said:

Woops grabbed the wrong Mega link - here is the proper one  https://mega.nz/#!IsJXBCCa!G4twBom47yMxo1TkjQo01RouGQPjr239c-SPEUvVE2M

Can you fix the link for night theme

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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̌̅̒̾̈́̆͌̌̾̎̽̐̅̏́̈̔͛̀̋̃͊̒̓͗͒̑͒̃͂̌̄̇̑̇͛̆̾͛̒̇̍̒̓̀̈́̄̐͂̍͊͗̎̔͌͛̂̏̉̊̎͗͊͒̂̈̽̊́̔̊̃͑̈́̑̌̋̓̅̔́́͒̄̈́̈̂͐̈̅̈̓͌̓͊́̆͌̉͐̊̉͛̓̏̓̅̈́͂̉̒̇̉̆̀̍̄̇͆͛̏̉̑̃̓͂́͋̃̆̒͋̓͊̄́̓̕̕̕̚͘͘͘̚̕̚͘̕̕͜͜͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͠ͅS̷̢̨̧̢̡̨̢̨̢̨̧̧̨̧͚̱̪͇̱̮̪̮̦̝͖̜͙̘̪̘̟̱͇͎̻̪͚̩͍̠̹̮͚̦̝̤͖̙͔͚̙̺̩̥̻͈̺̦͕͈̹̳̖͓̜͚̜̭͉͇͖̟͔͕̹̯̬͍̱̫̮͓̙͇̗̙̼͚̪͇̦̗̜̼̠͈̩̠͉͉̘̱̯̪̟͕̘͖̝͇̼͕̳̻̜͖̜͇̣̠̹̬̗̝͓̖͚̺̫͛̉̅̐̕͘͜͜͜͜ͅͅͅ.̶̨̢̢̨̢̨̢̛̻͙̜̼̮̝̙̣̘̗̪̜̬̳̫̙̮̣̹̥̲̥͇͈̮̟͉̰̮̪̲̗̳̰̫̙͍̦̘̠̗̥̮̹̤̼̼̩͕͉͕͇͙̯̫̩̦̟̦̹͈͔̱̝͈̤͓̻̟̮̱͖̟̹̝͉̰͊̓̏̇͂̅̀̌͑̿͆̿̿͗̽̌̈́̉̂̀̒̊̿͆̃̄͑͆̃̇͒̀͐̍̅̃̍̈́̃̕͘͜͜͝͠͠z̴̢̢̡̧̢̢̧̢̨̡̨̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̲͚̠̜̮̠̜̞̤̺͈̘͍̻̫͖̣̥̗̙̳͓͙̫̫͖͍͇̬̲̳̭̘̮̤̬̖̼͎̬̯̼̮͔̭̠͎͓̼̖̟͈͓̦̩̦̳̙̮̗̮̩͙͓̮̰̜͎̺̞̝̪͎̯̜͈͇̪̙͎̩͖̭̟͎̲̩͔͓͈͌́̿͐̍̓͗͑̒̈́̎͂̋͂̀͂̑͂͊͆̍͛̄̃͌͗̌́̈̊́́̅͗̉͛͌͋̂̋̇̅̔̇͊͑͆̐̇͊͋̄̈́͆̍̋̏͑̓̈́̏̀͒̂̔̄̅̇̌̀̈́̿̽̋͐̾̆͆͆̈̌̿̈́̎͌̊̓̒͐̾̇̈́̍͛̅͌̽́̏͆̉́̉̓̅́͂͛̄̆͌̈́̇͐̒̿̾͌͊͗̀͑̃̊̓̈̈́̊͒̒̏̿́͑̄̑͋̀̽̀̔̀̎̄͑̌̔́̉̐͛̓̐̅́̒̎̈͆̀̍̾̀͂̄̈́̈́̈́̑̏̈́̐̽̐́̏̂̐̔̓̉̈́͂̕̚̕͘͘̚͘̚̕̚̚̚͘̕̕̕͜͜͝͠͠͝͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅī̸̧̧̧̡̨̨̢̨̛̛̘͓̼̰̰̮̗̰͚̙̥̣͍̦̺͈̣̻͇̱͔̰͈͓͖͈̻̲̫̪̲͈̜̲̬̖̻̰̦̰͙̤̘̝̦̟͈̭̱̮̠͍̖̲͉̫͔͖͔͈̻̖̝͎̖͕͔̣͈̤̗̱̀̅̃̈́͌̿̏͋̊̇̂̀̀̒̉̄̈́͋͌̽́̈́̓̑̈̀̍͗͜͜͠͠ͅp̴̢̢̧̨̡̡̨̢̨̢̢̢̨̡̛̛͕̩͕̟̫̝͈̖̟̣̲̖̭̙͇̟̗͖͎̹͇̘̰̗̝̹̤̺͉͎̙̝̟͙͚̦͚͖̜̫̰͖̼̤̥̤̹̖͉͚̺̥̮̮̫͖͍̼̰̭̤̲͔̩̯̣͖̻͇̞̳̬͉̣̖̥̣͓̤͔̪̙͎̰̬͚̣̭̞̬͎̼͉͓̮͙͕̗̦̞̥̮̘̻͎̭̼͚͎͈͇̥̗͖̫̮̤̦͙̭͎̝͖̣̰̱̩͎̩͎̘͇̟̠̱̬͈̗͍̦̘̱̰̤̱̘̫̫̮̥͕͉̥̜̯͖̖͍̮̼̲͓̤̮͈̤͓̭̝̟̲̲̳̟̠͉̙̻͕͙̞͔̖͈̱̞͓͔̬̮͎̙̭͎̩̟̖͚̆͐̅͆̿͐̄̓̀̇̂̊̃̂̄̊̀͐̍̌̅͌̆͊̆̓́̄́̃̆͗͊́̓̀͑͐̐̇͐̍́̓̈́̓̑̈̈́̽͂́̑͒͐͋̊͊̇̇̆̑̃̈́̎͛̎̓͊͛̐̾́̀͌̐̈́͛̃̂̈̿̽̇̋̍͒̍͗̈͘̚̚͘̚͘͘͜͜͜͜͜͜͠͠͝͝ͅͅͅ☻♥■∞{╚mYÄÜXτ╕○\╚Θº£¥ΘBM@Q05♠{{↨↨▬§¶‼↕◄►☼1♦  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Posted
11 minutes ago, SamStrecker said:

Can you fix the link for night theme

lol https://mega.nz/#!IsJXBCCa!G4twBom47yMxo1TkjQo01RouGQPjr239c-SPEUvVE2M

happy? xD 

Solve your own audio issues  |  First Steps with RPi 3  |  Humidity & Condensation  |  Sleep & Hibernation  |  Overclocking RAM  |  Making Backups  |  Displays  |  4K / 8K / 16K / etc.  |  Do I need 80+ Platinum?

If you can read this you're using the wrong theme.  You can change it at the bottom.

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Posted
Just now, Ryan_Vickers said:

lol https://mega.nz/#!IsJXBCCa!G4twBom47yMxo1TkjQo01RouGQPjr239c-SPEUvVE2M

happy? xD 

Ye

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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4 hours ago, wolrah said:

Considering the low cost I'd be interested in hearing about how they perform in RAID 1.  In theory from the disk's perspective RAID 1 should be identical to a single drive.

 

Also could a tiered storage solution be beneficial with these?  SSD write cache, a few high performance spinning disks for regularly read data, and the archive drives doing what they do best?

I have two of these drives myself (Shucked from USB3 enclosure kits) and I use them in a FlexRAID setup, which is a snapshot based parity system.  One of them is the parity drive, that stores all parity data to rebuild any other drive that fails, an the other is a storage drive.  The storage drive is amongst other drives, 4x4TB Seagates, 1x1TB Seagate and 1x500GB Seagate, all pooled together.  Since it's a parity drive pool I can't really benchmark any one drive absolutely, but the setup shows no problems writing at 1gbps off other machines as new media is copied to it.  That said, I think there's a hit to speed when parity snapshots are being updated every Sunday night, but when each drive cost me $279 CAD, it's hard to complain about slow performance in some circumstances.

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Does Windows Server 2012 R2 have equivalent feature like Turbo Write on UnRAID? THX

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There's a reason why this didn't work. For a start the parity disk doesn't really behave in the way that it does in the animation. I mean that's a good way to think of it but it's not really how it works. As far as the rebuild process is concerned the parity disk is the same as any other disk. Fundamentally what a RAID 5 does is use the parity disk to store information about whether there is an odd or even number of 1s in the rest of the array at that position. 1 for odd, 0 for even. So if a disk dies and there's an odd number of 1s on the remaining disks? It knows that the spare disk should be a 1. If it's even it knows the spare disk should be a 0.

 

So you can see the issue with Linus' idea. When doing the rebuild you're basically limited by the read speed of the disks remaining and the write speed of the new disk. So if you change one of the existing disks it's not going to make the rebuild process faster. You'll still be limited by the read speed of the slowest disk in the array. You have to read from all of the disks. So that explains why having the parity disk (or any of the other disks) as a faster drive doesn't help speed up the process. But there's one part of the video that doesn't make much sense to me on first glance. The replacement disk.

 

Why didn't the faster write speeds of the enterprise drive as a replacement disk improve things? I mean that's kinda the whole point isn't it? That the write speeds of these archive drives makes them unsuitable for this sort of thing? Well, I have two theories on that one. See when Linus explained the issue with write speeds on archive drives? The drive in question was having to write twice to cover the data it overwrote. That's the thing that slowed it down dramatically. With a RAID rebuild why is that an issue? The drive is wiped before you start. That might be an explanation for it.

 

But here's an even simpler explanation. When rebuilding you're doing more than just reading the data from the existing disks and putting it on the new disk. You're also doing a parity calculation. Now for the write speed of the new drive to become an issue it needs to be more than just slower than the read speed of the other disks. It needs to be slower than the read speed plus that parity calculation. The only conclusion I can draw is that the archive drive wasn't. Whether that was because the drive was empty or for some other reason. Which meant that it wasn't the bottleneck and therefore replacing it with a faster drive did not help.

 

...... and this reply was a lot longer than I intended it to be

Fools think they know everything, experts know they know nothing

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Actually the numbers didn't seem that bad to me.  Sure, rebuilds take slightly longer, but how often does one rebuild anyways?

 

I wonder if a decent 'solution' would be to stick a 2-drive SSD RAID-1 as a bcache write cache infront of the RAID array?  That would take care of the slow writes.  Is bcache available with unraid yet? 

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I've got four of those 8TB Seagate V2 archive drives set up with Stablebit drivepool to manage my media library. It gives me roughly 30TB of storage in one massive pool. For redundancy, I set up duplicates for the various folders I have on the drive (DVD, BD, MUSIC, PHOTOS, VIDEOS). That way any single or even dual drive crash still lets me read everything stored. For a second layer of redundancy, I divide the entire contents into quarters and store them individually on the drives outside of the pool.

 

Now the cool part - since everything is available on the network, I can read the files with my connected SMART TV. This setup has made obsolete the need to have a dedicated HTPC, since even with a traditional NAS box, the SMART TV can display any type of media stored on the drive connected to the network. I've been running this setup for over a year so far streaming my media, and it's been running like a champ without a single issue whatsoever.

 

I know it doesn't give me the storage efficiency of RAID5, but for the price of the drives and software (around $1050) it's an absolute steal compared to what you would pay for a set of enterprise drives AND the cost of even the cheapest external 4-drive enclosure.

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Well, that's a good video, but it raises a couple of questions that matter for me.

 

I was going to buy 4 of these drive to use in RAID 10, made by Intel onboard SATA RAID (Intel RST). The software we're going to use with this runs only on Windows and looks like just a filebase that receives data from another, data-procetssing, computer over our gigabit network, stores it and gives to clients on their demand (actually 1 client, 5 more to come). So, the planned amout of writing to the RAID will be something like 2 gigabytes 10 times a day (limited by our network and calculating performance of dataprocessing computer), the amount of reading is going to be two-three times as writing, probably.

 

The only thing I concerned about is the speed of the array. ATM our network is slow (maybe 70 meg per sec max), but we're going to fix this and even think about installing 10 Gb network infrastructure for the most crucial servers/PCs in our office. But considering the speed of writing we still be limited by the perfomance of data-processing computer (looks like it max produces 30-50 megabyte per second)...

 

So, what do you think, should I look more into those Archive drives or just go and buy a bunch of Reds (which are quite expensive, I should say, I don't think I can get a 16TB storage with these)?

 

P.S. Not going to use any hardware RAID cards, I've seen some bad situations when a controller dies and ppl just get on their hands a bunch of working drives with no access to their data (we don't have any data recovery companies here, and taking drives to another city would take an eternity with an unpredictable outcome).

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21 hours ago, dyent10 said:

whats with the late upload lately?

Apparently there was a decrease in non-subscriber views, so they are changing to this time slot to see if their is an increase now

 

"We're all in this together, might as well be friends" Tom, Toonami.

 

mini eLiXiVy: my open source 65% mechanical PCB, a build log, PCB anatomy and discussing open source licenses: https://linustechtips.com/topic/1366493-elixivy-a-65-mechanical-keyboard-build-log-pcb-anatomy-and-how-i-open-sourced-this-project/

 

mini_cardboard: a 4% keyboard build log and how keyboards work: https://linustechtips.com/topic/1328547-mini_cardboard-a-4-keyboard-build-log-and-how-keyboards-work/

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I find unraid to be a funny beast when it comes to write performance even before you get to those Seagate drives. I think the simplest workaround is to use dual cache drives for redundancy, although adding two drives just for that will negate any saving.

 

On the table WD Reds were ~20% more cost, and do not have the same performance limitation. Leave the Seagates to write once applications...

Gaming system: R7 7800X3D, Asus ROG Strix B650E-F Gaming Wifi, Thermalright Phantom Spirit 120 SE ARGB, Corsair Vengeance 2x 32GB 6000C30, RTX 4070, MSI MPG A850G, Fractal Design North, Samsung 990 Pro 2TB, Acer Predator XB241YU 24" 1440p 144Hz G-Sync + HP LP2475w 24" 1200p 60Hz wide gamut
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I'm thinking maybe Ceph with a tiered cache setup of SSDs or 10k/15k drives in front of a archive drive pool with erasure coding(raid5) could work for backups. This essentially lets you put a SSD in front of the drives that is used both as read and writeback cache, so writes would complete very fast and slowly get moved over to the shingled drives over time.
Doubting the usability for video editing and the like though, even if the files on first read gets pulled into the cache drives, it'd still be *really* slow on first access, in my experience parity raid isn't exactly suitable if one needs crazy good performance except in some rare cases(And in the case of ceph, it's slightly worse due to the block size being 4MB by default, which gets read into the cache disk if even a 4k sector is read).

TL;DR: I have read up way too much on storage

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