Working in The AAA industry

[kuzko]

1 minute ago, patrickjp93 said:

My counteraegument is Star Citizen. You get a shit Ponzi scheme.

I'm seriously raising eyebrows on this, I did not back the campaign, but they are adopting the same iterative designe process that Frontier has succesfully had for Elite Dangerous. A few parts of the game are already in the hands of the public and will release when ready... doesn't make the point of not overworking your staff to rush a release any less valid.

[patrickjp93]

20 minutes ago, kuzko said:

I'm seriously raising eyebrows on this, I did not back the campaign, but they are adopting the same iterative designe process that Frontier has succesfully had for Elite Dangerous. A few parts of the game are already in the hands of the public and will release when ready... doesn't make the point of not overworking your staff to rush a release any less valid.

It's a giant money sinkhole like Eve that will never be done. How can anyone still not see this? The studio is cutting people and pocketing profits. It's obvious!

[kuzko]

47 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

It's a giant money sinkhole like Eve that will never be done. How can anyone still not see this? The studio is cutting people and pocketing profits. It's obvious!

Could you please source documents for this? You see, when I accuse Apple of not giving two shits about what happens in china with overworking people in their subcontractors, I can source this : https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/jan/25/apple-child-labour-supply, When you have a claim of someone being fraudulent, you might want to add a source to your claims.

[patrickjp93]

5 hours ago, kuzko said:

Could you please source documents for this? You see, when I accuse Apple of not giving two shits about what happens in china with overworking people in their subcontractors, I can source this : https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/jan/25/apple-child-labour-supply, When you have a claim of someone being fraudulent, you might want to add a source to your claims.

I didn't say they were being fraudulent. Would you like me to aggregate all the information about release slow downs and how much money has been sunk into the game so far just in buying ships and in microtransactions? There's no point in finishing the game.

[Prysin]

15 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

I didn't say they were being fraudulent. Would you like me to aggregate all the information about release slow downs and how much money has been sunk into the game so far just in buying ships and in microtransactions? There's no point in finishing the game.

yes patrick, that is what people expect when you make bold statements.

 

we have been telling you this CLEARLY for nearly two years.... isn't it about time you take the hint?

[patrickjp93]

4 minutes ago, Prysin said:

yes patrick, that is what people expect when you make bold statements.

 

we have been telling you this CLEARLY for nearly two years.... isn't it about time you take the hint?

http://www.kotaku.com.au/2015/08/derek-smart-threatens-to-sue-star-citizen-developers-unless-they-meet-his-demands/

 

https://voxday.blogspot.com.au/2015/10/the-collapse-of-star-citizen.html

 

http://www.dereksmart.org/forums/topic/star-citizen-extinction-level-event/

 

The third link especially is an up-to-date aggregation of both evidence and reasoning. It's a Ponzi Scheme by construction. It's been that way for nearly two years now.

 

By the way, just because you can't see the obvious does not mean I'm wrong when I point it out.

[Prysin]

28 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

http://www.kotaku.com.au/2015/08/derek-smart-threatens-to-sue-star-citizen-developers-unless-they-meet-his-demands/

 

https://voxday.blogspot.com.au/2015/10/the-collapse-of-star-citizen.html

 

http://www.dereksmart.org/forums/topic/star-citizen-extinction-level-event/

 

The third link especially is an up-to-date aggregation of both evidence and reasoning. It's a Ponzi Scheme by construction. It's been that way for nearly two years now.

 

By the way, just because you can't see the obvious does not mean I'm wrong when I point it out.

Just because you say something, doesnt mean you're right. As we have proven quite a few times this year... you know, the count is up to 6 this year. Up from 2 the year before (according to you)...

[patrickjp93]

14 minutes ago, Prysin said:

Just because you say something, doesnt mean you're right. As we have proven quite a few times this year... you know, the count is up to 6 this year. Up from 2 the year before (according to you)...

I count 2 this year.

[Prysin]

1 minute ago, patrickjp93 said:

I count 2 this year.

minimum 3... i/tomsen proved you wrong twice in the spring, i proved you wrong atleast 1/4 points yesterday, we can argue all year for the remaining 3/4 points. so yeah....

[patrickjp93]

2 minutes ago, Prysin said:

minimum 3... i/tomsen proved you wrong twice in the spring, i proved you wrong atleast 1/4 points yesterday, we can argue all year for the remaining 3/4 points. so yeah....

No, you lost on all 3 of those 3/4. Would you like to take a poll over the LTT community? You're entrenched in bad reasoning on stale facts, and you're proof positive that providing contradictory facts to someone's world view further entrenches them as sociologists have horrifyingly discovered and documented.

[Prysin]

Just now, patrickjp93 said:

No, you lost on all 3 of those 4. Would you like to take a poll over the LTT community? You're entrenched in bad reasoning on stale facts, and you're proof positive that providing contradictory facts to someone's world view further entrenches them as sociologists have horrifyingly discovered and documented.

and @dalekphalm further disproved you.

And world views, and the information you get depending on were you live, does have a say in how opinions is formed, reasoned and explained.

And i also happen to have grown up with a friend who's personality is more or less the same as yours. So i know it's like talking to a brick wall, although i've torn down such walls before.

[Yoinkerman]

If you work multiple 80+ hour weeks the quality and efficiency of work plummets.  You get less done than if you just worked 40 or 50 hours.

[Zulkkis]

They do it because they can. I remember reading a post from someone who was at EA and he was told that the average career length of a developer is 5 years. There are more than enough people graduating and just wanting to work in the games industry no matter what it takes. It doesn't take long until people who had high hopes see the industry for what it is, and take their leave.

 

Especially after graduating, if you don't have too much going on with your life, you may even want to work for longer days. Maybe it is your passion and you really want to get better at it. But if you are constantly "crunching" and not seeing it in your salary - if you're not compensated for overtime, or if you are not given a part of the revenue/profit after a reasonable return of capital is achieved - then you are being taken an advantage of, and are nothing more than a sucker. If you want to work more but your employee is not paying for more than what your base salary, then do the hours in your contract and then do your own stuff during the free time to further improve your skills.

 

Developers do need an union. With the increased bargaining power they could forge contracts where their part of the work could be recognized and industry issues like long crunch periods would be addressed. Sadly, in the U.S, where this is the biggest problem, unions are seen as another evil and it doesn't really mesh with the culture of rather extreme individualism. Unions do sometimes end up protecting the old people already in the system, and sometimes demand far too much than what is healthy for the industry, but, in general, they are blamed for things that are not exactly their fault and they do a lot of good things, too. People think that Henry Ford raised salaries to make sure that people could buy his cars, when in fact, he did so that he wouldn't have to deal with unions. Unions do help indirectly as well.

[Murasaki]

Better to work 80 hours a week in game industry than 80 hours a week in McDonald's. Get it together, damn, it what you signed for. If you don't like your job, quit. Who would want such staff.

[patrickjp93]

4 minutes ago, ModuleLFS said:

Better to work 80 hours a week in game industry than 80 hours a week in McDonald's. Get it together, damn. People are not thankful for what they've got.

I don't think you understand the mental stamina development takes vs. just cleaning and serving food.

[ttam]

I got my start in the tech world working for a very very large game studio here in Seattle. It's a big enough studio where 99% of this forum has spent hundreds and hundreds & more hours playing their games.

 

80 hours is nothing. Some guys do work 16 hour days, some work 8 and go home for a few hours and head right back. The company I started with had A LOT of offices around the country and each of them had the most amazing break rooms... unlimited snacks, games, lounges and just a good environment to be in. Many of these guys are young familyless people who have the time.

 

These devs were making $100k a year easy. Double your work time, you make 1.5x the money thanks to that sweet sweet overtime.

[SpaceGhostC2C]

51 minutes ago, ModuleLFS said:

Better to work 80 hours a week in game industry than 80 hours a week in McDonald's. Get it together, damn, it what you signed for. If you don't like your job, quit. Who would want such staff.

Also, it is better to work 80 hours at MacDonald's than getting shot at. So quit whining and super-size my fries.

 

 

 

Something being better that something else has zero implications for whether it is good, legal, fair, useful, ethical, desirable, acceptable, etc.

[Tiber1337]

Well most of you don't even know who Amy Hennig is when it comes to the gaming industry. Comments such as " get over it " or " you don't know what dedication to a project is" are really not appropriate when addressed to her. 

[Guest Kloaked]

On 10/7/2016 at 10:07 AM, Curufinwe_wins said:

I mean... I think we all know how much of a joke US labor laws are, so this isn't that surprising.

I like how you point out that the US labor laws are a joke when China and other countries may as well just give employers free reign with as bad as it is.

 

The US labor laws are fine. I agreed to my low salary as a programmer while working 10 hour days during the week because I actually like being here. If I have to stay overnight (I will on new years) I don't get paid anything extra, and I'm fine with it. I got employed at a company that I love and don't see myself moving anywhere else.

 

What's a joke is all of these people who say they can't find a job and the extent of their application went to big name companies instead of the smaller ones that are steadily growing, like I did.

[Curufinwe_wins]

4 hours ago, Kloaked said:

I like how you point out that the US labor laws are a joke when China and other countries may as well just give employers free reign with as bad as it is.

 

The US labor laws are fine. I agreed to my low salary as a programmer while working 10 hour days during the week because I actually like being here. If I have to stay overnight (I will on new years) I don't get paid anything extra, and I'm fine with it. I got employed at a company that I love and don't see myself moving anywhere else.

 

What's a joke is all of these people who say they can't find a job and the extent of their application went to big name companies instead of the smaller ones that are steadily growing, like I did.

We do give US employers free reign and we pretend we have laws in place that protect laborers but make enforcement completely non-existent.

 

You really want to compare US labor laws to China? I mean really... That is who you want to compare against...

 

Anyways... 50 hours is totally one thing... I would be shocked if the vast majority of my weeks were not in the 60 hour range, but once you get beyond that things get really awful.

 

But I basically had my choice of jobs given my prior education/research, so being selective was obviously an option for me (and doing things so I could be selective in the future was part of the point lol.) In general, I agree quite a bit with your closing statement though.

[Guest Kloaked]

49 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

We do give US employers free reign and we pretend we have laws in place that protect laborers but make enforcement completely non-existent.

 

You really want to compare US labor laws to China? I mean really... That is who you want to compare against...

 

Anyways... 50 hours is totally one thing... I would be shocked if the vast majority of my weeks were not in the 60 hour range, but once you get beyond that things get really awful.

 

But I basically had my choice of jobs given my prior education/research, so being selective was obviously an option for me (and doing things so I could be selective in the future was part of the point lol.) In general, I agree quite a bit with your closing statement though.

US employers do not have free reign, lmao. You don't even know what ridiculous restrictions they're under because of unions and all the rest of it.

 

I compared it to the likes of China because you're implying that the US' labor laws are bad, and they're not. Have you even gone into the job sector yet?

 

Like I implied in my post: you have the choice on what job you take. They let you know what the working condition is like up front before you accept the position. There's nothing morally wrong about it. Companies in the gaming industry, for example, have to have those hectic hours to meet deadlines so that they can deliver games without people (whiny consumers) freaking out about missed release dates. So if anything, consumers are to blame for the quick consumption of media, because the market reacts to it's consumers.

 

You do know LTT employees work long hours too, right? They have deadlines.

 

You saw how many people flipping their shit about the late GTA 5 PC release right? How much do you want to bet that the Rockstar employees worked 80+ hours a week to make that happen?

 

Not even just gaming companies, but any company that's highly competitive in their market will have hectic schedules like that. Tesla, Apple, Microsoft, etc, all have jobs that will require you to work more than your usual 8-5 job you can find right around the corner. That's how it works and there's nothing really wrong with it, you're just looking at it from the wrong perspective. If you don't enjoy what you're doing enough to work in the industry like that, then get out and do whatever makes you happy. Nobody is stopping you.

[Prysin]

57 minutes ago, Kloaked said:

US employers do not have free reign, lmao. You don't even know what ridiculous restrictions they're under because of unions and all the rest of it.

 

I compared it to the likes of China because you're implying that the US' labor laws are bad, and they're not. Have you even gone into the job sector yet?

 

Like I implied in my post: you have the choice on what job you take. They let you know what the working condition is like up front before you accept the position. There's nothing morally wrong about it. Companies in the gaming industry, for example, have to have those hectic hours to meet deadlines so that they can deliver games without people (whiny consumers) freaking out about missed release dates. So if anything, consumers are to blame for the quick consumption of media, because the market reacts to it's consumers.

 

You do know LTT employees work long hours too, right? They have deadlines.

 

You saw how many people flipping their shit about the late GTA 5 PC release right? How much do you want to bet that the Rockstar employees worked 80+ hours a week to make that happen?

 

Not even just gaming companies, but any company that's highly competitive in their market will have hectic schedules like that. Tesla, Apple, Microsoft, etc, all have jobs that will require you to work more than your usual 8-5 job you can find right around the corner. That's how it works and there's nothing really wrong with it, you're just looking at it from the wrong perspective. If you don't enjoy what you're doing enough to work in the industry like that, then get out and do whatever makes you happy. Nobody is stopping you.

even in the construction business we work 50-70 hour weeks during the final two weeks of delivery. Not unusual.

[Curufinwe_wins]

1 hour ago, Prysin said:

even in the construction business we work 50-70 hour weeks during the final two weeks of delivery. Not unusual.

Lol I spent all of my HS and college summers (and other times less regularly) working construction (well technically subcontracted counter-top/cabinetry work) I'd say we were generally very feast or famine (then again the group I worked for had abhorrently bad resource management so that could be a factor.) Obviously had by far the most intense and longest hours of my life doing that work, but other times we'd be sitting on our hands for weeks without pay (or basically not getting things done.)

 

Honestly, the irregularity of those hours bugged me more than the length (having a 96 one 7 day week then a 15 3 day the next was really frustrating.)

 

 

2 hours ago, Kloaked said:

snip

Wow deadlines... much hard.

 

US Regulations are a JOKE. A company can hire and fire anyone for any reason at all REGARDLESS OF THE LAW (discriminating against women in the workplace for example) because they can, and do, make up any excuse they want to keep the old boy clubs in their stranglehold. They can use blatantly illegal internal and external practices and get at most slaps on the wrists (if they ever get caught in the first place) from regulator groups or setting class action lawsuits for pennies on the dollar so far in the future that it literally doesn't matter for them. They even can defacto force you to donate to political parties you do not support despite the fact that is EXPLICITLY illegal. Another example is that in many states it is illegal to make hiring decisions based on credit history (or even ask for it), but we can all be damn sure that any time a "routine background check" is part of the application process it is being searched.

 

Man... you know because X country and Y country have legal child worker exploitation that means we should really really be grateful of what we have here in the US and pushing for proper actual enforcement of our laws is far too much... Yea that is totally how it works right? It can't just be blatantly wrong and we can't strive to actually protect the rights of employees. 

 

 

 

For the record, I have been in the workforce for 12 years this fall (not including my seasonal work), 4 of that doing research at public institutions (university + national lab), 8 further ones in the private sector. None of it was union. None of it was hourly. All of it I did/do over 40 hour work weeks, and not ONE spelled out expectations explicitly in their contract or hiring with regards to working hours (that simply isn't done officially in my vocation.)

 

That isn't to say I am over-worked or to say that I am unhappy with my job (because being a successful researcher and educated person, I was able to take my choice of jobs and talk UNOFFICIALLY to others in the companies to figure out generally speaking what the unspoken expectations are in each company.)

 

I work to get things done. That doesn't mean I think it is right for other to supposedly have to put out consistent 80+ hour work weeks on a salaried position if it isn't explicitly spelled out in those terms.

 

Anyways I already mentioned all of that in my first comment (where you decided you wanted to point out my perception of the US consumer protection system then go way off the walls as if I was claiming any overtime work was unfair...) 

 

On 10/7/2016 at 9:07 AM, Curufinwe_wins said:

Even within the financial industry (where my fiancé works as an auditor) 50-60 out of season and 70-80 in season is generally the standard (I'd personally suggest 60+ is expected in my own field, but it's a much less rigorous thing recently due to new competitors offering better work environments.)

 

Look, yea it sucks to work consistent long hours, you should probably read your contract thoroughly and request stipulations of maximum overtime (this can be done even as salaried employees), and/or find a different place to work with less extreme unwritten expectations for jobs.

 

They do exist... Hell places like google and Facebook have made their huge names within the industry by being, relative to competition, much more about working effectively and efficiently than working tirelessly.

 

 

 

[Guest Kloaked]

2 hours ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

Wow deadlines... much hard.

 

US Regulations are a JOKE. A company can hire and fire anyone for any reason at all REGARDLESS OF THE LAW (discriminating against women in the workplace for example) because they can, and do, make up any excuse they want to keep the old boy clubs in their stranglehold. They can use blatantly illegal internal and external practices and get at most slaps on the wrists (if they ever get caught in the first place) from regulator groups or setting class action lawsuits for pennies on the dollar so far in the future that it literally doesn't matter for them. They even can defacto force you to donate to political parties you do not support despite the fact that is EXPLICITLY illegal. Another example is that in many states it is illegal to make hiring decisions based on credit history (or even ask for it), but we can all be damn sure that any time a "routine background check" is part of the application process it is being searched.

You're joking right? You don't actually think that happens, do you? That feminist narrative is a myth, so you have my condolences that you were brainwashed into believing it. It is illegal for companies to discriminate against anyone for any reason, especially based on sex. In the same breath, the laws are there to actually help the employer be able to hire people who will actually be a proper fit for the company and the team they're hiring for, which isn't discrimination. For example, the team I work with makes offensive jokes and talk about hot topics in the office, and they wanted to be sure I wouldn't get my panties in a bunch when something offensive was said, among other traits of that specific office that I needed to be okay with. They weren't going to make special exceptions for me to change the entire social aspect of that office because nobody on Earth is special enough for that.

 

We're also looking for a female web developer in our office since it's nothing but guys in here, but we're still keeping the door open for anyone who can actually fill the position.

 

Hell, there's a pest control office next door that has had a sign up that says "Hiring pest control technician. Female preferred" for God knows how long. Guess no females in that area want to kill bugs.

The workplace isn't some mythical boy club, as you say. A lot of professions in my industry (I'm an application developer) specifically are predominantly male because women tend to go after different professions, at least right now. Nobody gets a special pass on anything, and if something like that actually happens there are legal channels to go through. Believe me, though: women get special treatment everywhere, sometimes to the point of it being unfair. That's a fact, because I've seen it everywhere I've worked.

 

3 hours ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

Man... you know because X country and Y country have legal child worker exploitation that means we should really really be grateful of what we have here in the US and pushing for proper actual enforcement of our laws is far too much... Yea that is totally how it works right? It can't just be blatantly wrong and we can't strive to actually protect the rights of employees. 

 

Because mocking what I say makes your argument that much stronger. You have rights as an employee and they're pinned to a bulletin board wherever you work. If you take issue with something, tell someone about it.

 

Can you name some things that you think should be changed? Outside of the long hours for SALARY WORKERS, and of course the discrimination ordeal that you brought up, which isn't actually a thing as many times as it gets repeated.

 

3 hours ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

For the record, I have been in the workforce for 12 years this fall (not including my seasonal work), 4 of that doing research at public institutions (university + national lab), 8 further ones in the private sector. None of it was union. None of it was hourly. All of it I did/do over 40 hour work weeks, and not ONE spelled out expectations explicitly in their contract or hiring with regards to working hours (that simply isn't done officially in my vocation.)

 

That isn't to say I am over-worked or to say that I am unhappy with my job (because being a successful researcher and educated person, I was able to take my choice of jobs and talk UNOFFICIALLY to others in the companies to figure out generally speaking what the unspoken expectations are in each company.)

 

I work to get things done. That doesn't mean I think it is right for other to supposedly have to put out consistent 80+ hour work weeks on a salaried position if it isn't explicitly spelled out in those terms.

 

Anyways I already mentioned all of that in my first comment (where you decided you wanted to point out my perception of the US consumer protection system then go way off the walls as if I was claiming any overtime work was unfair...) 

 

 

If you were paid on salary, that's just how it works. You can also just ask about what the usual working hours are, outside of what they tell you what the office hours are, or for your shift.

 

If you don't like working overtime and not getting paid 1.5x or more for it, then you can find another job. Unless of course you're like the smart people and actually find a job that you love doing and don't mind staying late when needed.

[Curufinwe_wins]

2 hours ago, Kloaked said:

snip

-Says women get special treatment everywhere....

-Doesn't work with any women....

 

Hey maybe software development/programming just doesn't have the same issues engineering (by this I mean the classical manufacturing/energy eng field) has, because I've seen blatant discrimination against females and non-native born americans (this almost being more common) at literally every private job I've worked (and as it's come up, so have my co-workers by a vast super majority). If it doesn't have those same issues (I mean we have all heard of "diversity recruiting quotas" in that field) that is great to hear.

 

It just simply isn't the case in engineering jobs though, especially once you get beyond entry level employment. And just as you directly implied by taking a job at a small firm instead, the bigger the employer the (generally) worse the discrimination/illegal practices get.

 

The obvious distinction here is that supposedly the person in question in the OP is not complaining about having to work long hours occasionally, she is complaining about working double hours continuously for years at a time which IF TRUE (and I did mention in my very first comment I rather doubted) is ridiculous (unless ofc those terms were explicitly outlaid in her contract as I did originally explicitly mention earlier).

 

I work (for the most part) as much as I want to, there is always more to do, which is fine. I have that luxury because I was careful in picking out positions. Unless of course by "you" you are not referring to me but in the general "one", there is literally nothing to add. I am not complaining about my work hours/pay, I never was and never will (on this forum anyways lol.)

 

The "mocking" was pointing out one of the self-evident flaws I found in the argument, and quite simply was why I was quite amused/exasperated at your comparison to China. Reversed stupidity is not intelligence, better than nothing is not good. Clearly we have very different opinions as to the protection that should be afforded employees, and so yes, our laws are "better than China's".