LMG has become bias

[App4that]

2 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

I don't mind it being included either way, but I certainly wouldn't fault a tech reviewer for not including a review of effectively a 6 day old game in the launch of a brand new product. That is just asking for invalid results.

GTA V tops the charts for games that would stress a graphics card, Ark is up there too. Yet I can only think of one reviewer who used Ark. The whole system is bonkers. Test the cards in the games people play.

[Curufinwe_wins]

Just now, App4that said:

GTA V tops the charts for games that would stress a graphics card, Ark is up there too. Yet I can only think of one reviewer who used Ark. The whole system is bonkers. Test the cards in the games people play.

Yea but Ark is also one of those obscure games that spent months being a total disaster of code. Thus I wouldn't expect many reviewers to go out on a limb to include it.

[App4that]

2 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

Yea but Ark is also one of those obscure games that spent months being a total disaster of code. Thus I wouldn't expect many reviewers to go out on a limb to include it.

Obscure? It's on the top 15 games played on steam. Way more people play Ark than Doom. Why do we test graphics cards? Isn't it to see how they perform in games we actually play? So shouldn't we test games people actually play?

[alphaproject]

LTT isn't biased. Even if they were... who really cares?  You obviously missed Linus ripping apart Nvidia's idea for releasing a new Titan X. He said he could talk about it for a long time...basically calling them idiots for calling a new product the same exact thing as last years product.  He didn't even have to mention it at all if he was a total fanboy but he did.

 

He also stated that the chip supports HBM2 but they aren't using it.

 

The 1060 right now is a better card.  If it performs better in a few games because of a specific API, that's great.... but it's overall not the faster card.

 

They went over many things about the 480 and 1060 saying the 480 was not easy to buy online for the retail price and the cheapest one they found was no where near the MSRP making the 1060 a better purchase anyhow.

[Curufinwe_wins]

6 minutes ago, App4that said:

Obscure? It's on the top 15 games played on steam. Way more people play Ark than Doom. Why do we test graphics cards? Isn't it to see how they perform in games we actually play? So shouldn't we test games people actually play?

I mean by that metric lets test TF2 and CS:GO...

 

Anyways, by obscure I mean again, A for months it was an absolute train wreck and B it isn't actually out for official release.

 

Even now the game is notoriously poorly optimized. It isn't so much that it stresses hardware as it stupid's them.

 

And no one wants to bench games who's performance is rapidly evolving still (since then your video's references are significantly non-representative.)

[App4that]

Just now, Curufinwe_wins said:

I mean by that metric lets test TF2 and CS:GO...

 

Anyways, by obscure I mean again, A for months it was an absolute train wreck and B it isn't actually out for official release.

 

Even now the game is notoriously poorly optimized. It isn't so much that it stresses hardware as it stupid's them.

I fear you're missing the point. The point of comparisons is to aid customers in making a purchase. How may people are buying graphics cards right now, because of games they don't even play? 

[Curufinwe_wins]

Just now, App4that said:

I fear you're missing the point. The point of comparisons is to aid customers in making a purchase. How may people are buying graphics cards right now, because of games they don't even play? 

Probably every person that only plays moba's and FPS games (aka 75% of gamers)... Your point?

 

Does it actually pay to start benching LoL and CS:GO?

 

 

[App4that]

3 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

Probably every person that only plays moba's and FPS games (aka 75% of gamers)... Your point?

 

Does it actually pay to start benching LoL and CS:GO?

 

 

Why not? GTA is way up there too. People playing a game is a reason to use it for a comparison, not that it favors the company you like.

[KuJoe]

The tightrope that @Slick walked on in that 1060 video was impressive. Anybody who considers him bias after that video is delusional because for an NVIDIA video he had a lot of good things to say about AMD and in the end made AMD the clear winner if you weren't going to buy a 1070 or 1080.

[Curufinwe_wins]

Just now, App4that said:

Why not? GTA is way up there too. People playing a game is a reason to use it for a comparison, not that it favors the company you like.

The game's stress levels being non-existent on this class of hardware is a good reason not to do it.

 

The game being wildly variable performance, not finished, or buggy as fuck is an even bigger reason not to test it.

 

CS:GO, LoL fit in the first one, Ark in the second. 

 

Sure a specific video for the game, or articles which can be adjusted/updated on the fly it makes a lot more sense, but for a specific launch video like this it's just stupid.

[Curufinwe_wins]

2 minutes ago, KuJoe said:

The tightrope that @Slick walked on in that 1060 video was impressive. Anybody who considers him bias after that video is delusional because for an NVIDIA video he had a lot of good things to say about AMD and in the end made AMD the clear winner if you weren't going to buy a 1070 or 1080.

I think I mentioned this earlier, but I was surprised how much he hammered the 1060 pricing considering the 480 is price jacked to all hell and impossible to find as well. That was just my two cents.

 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007709 601203818&IsNodeId=1&Description=480&name=Desktop Graphics Cards&Order=BESTMATCH&isdeptsrh=1

 

 

[KuJoe]

Just now, Curufinwe_wins said:

I think I mentioned this earlier, but I was surprised how much he hammered the 1060 pricing considering the 480 is price jacked to all hell and impossible to find as well. That was just my two cents.

 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007709 601203818&IsNodeId=1&Description=480&name=Desktop Graphics Cards&Order=BESTMATCH&isdeptsrh=1

He talked about this on the WAN show, when he recorded the video he was going based off the MSRP for both cards. The 1060 price shot up almost $100 over MSRP at the time of the WAN show but according to the link you posted the RX 480 is still showing $199 and $239 (also out of stock) so had he known the 1060 would be selling for so much more I'm sure he would have destroyed NVIDIA on the review.

[Curufinwe_wins]

9 minutes ago, KuJoe said:

He talked about this on the WAN show, when he recorded the video he was going based off the MSRP for both cards. The 1060 price shot up almost $100 over MSRP at the time of the WAN show but according to the link you posted the RX 480 is still showing $199 and $239 (also out of stock) so had he known the 1060 would be selling for so much more I'm sure he would have destroyed NVIDIA on the review.

The only 480 in stock was going for 410 USD....

 

By comparison the 4 1060s in stock are all selling less than founders...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&IsNodeId=1&N=100007709 601205646&Tpk=1060&ignorear=1

 

Don't get me wrong, I understand what he was saying, but I thought it was pretty stupid comments from him on the WAN show when the 480 is legitimately more expensive to ACTUALLY own right now than the 1060 (in the US).

[App4that]

1 hour ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

The game's stress levels being non-existent on this class of hardware is a good reason not to do it.

 

The game being wildly variable performance, not finished, or buggy as fuck is an even bigger reason not to test it.

 

CS:GO, LoL fit in the first one, Ark in the second. 

 

Sure a specific video for the game, or articles which can be adjusted/updated on the fly it makes a lot more sense, but for a specific launch video like this it's just stupid.

GTA V, the game you continue to ignore is on the top 15. Doom is no where to be seen on that list. The fact that the only games people argue over being included in comparisons are those that benefit one company over the other is the problem. 

[Megazero]

To be perfectly honest... I dont think Linus become bias toward either side. BUT, that doesnt mean I like their recent review though. Back at the 7xx and 9xx release their review was much better overall, with more benchmark, result, real use case and stuff like that. Now it barely seem like a part of the video. Nowaday I watch LTT mostly for their weird/awesome/funny project like the 7 gamers 1 CPU, Scrapyard War and such, not for review. 

[FRN]

I don't think so. If a tech channel leans over one product and downs the competitor, they'll just end up losing the fan base they have built if that review is found to be bias. Maybe it just so happens that the GTX 1060 is really better than the RX 480. These top YouTubers in general worked really hard to get their fanbase, they wont just create a content that is bias on one manufacturer only to lose them. Credibility and integrity is built, not bought.

[Prysin]

3 hours ago, ttam said:

Sorry but 10 frames in a benchmark is worlds apart. 

 

It's also extremely illegal for companies to take money for a positive review.

For AMERICAN AND EUROPEAN COMPANIES, yes.

 

Linus Media Group is canadian, and Linus has publicly stated that they do not accept paid reviews, he has also stated that at this very point in time, there is STILL no laws in canada barring companies to do paid reviews OR having to disclose sponsorship.

 

 

Its not just LTT, its Digital Foundry, PcPer, Hardware Canucks, Pauls Hardware.

 

THe only person i can think off that rips on Nvidia every now and then is TTL. Then again he works for one of the largest enthusiast communities world wide and one of the larger tech retailers in the UK. 

[Prysin]

2 hours ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

I think I mentioned this earlier, but I was surprised how much he hammered the 1060 pricing considering the 480 is price jacked to all hell and impossible to find as well. That was just my two cents.

 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007709 601203818&IsNodeId=1&Description=480&name=Desktop Graphics Cards&Order=BESTMATCH&isdeptsrh=1

 

 

fanboy argument.

 

Price jacking is not something AMD or Nvidia can control. It is up to retailers/private sellers.

 

The only price AMD and Nvidia can control is MSRP. This also goes for their board partners.

 

Judging a companys product based on what someone else does to your products is retarded.

 

Again, OP could have created a thread about your bias, just as easily as anyone from the tech press.

 

Again, the OP is merely stating that the WORDING is the issue. Go look at Digital Foundry.

 

Nvidia +2 FPS = Clear win for Nvidia

AMD +2 FPS = AMD has a slight lead.

2 FPS is TWO FUCKING FPS, and the terminology should be the same.

 

This is something that keeps happening over and over.

you can watch probably 50+ DF videos, and this pattern of WORDING repeats despite the numerical measured value being arbitrary between the two.

 

Another thing is benchmarking.

No two runs will EVER yield the same results. If they do, it is a limitation of the game engine holding hardware back. A benchmark can easily vary by 3-5 FPS, aslong as it consistently varies you can make an average and decleare that "values between 0 FPS and X FPS can be considered margin of error due to the nature of this benchmark".

 

Instead, reviewers are consistently dodging benchmarks or APIs that is favorable to AMD BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, VERY IMPORTANT FOR NVIDIA USERS AS THEY ARE BY FAR THE LARGEST AFFECTED USERBASE.

 

If a game were to run like ass in mode X vs Mode Y due to hardware, it would be fucking nice if i knew this prior to upgrading and or buying the game.

 

only a moron would claim that there "is no bias".

There is fucking bias everywhere. Even your average twin slot toaster is biased, just you watch closesly and you will see that one of the slots will toast the bread slightly more then the other.

 

Aslong, as any product is made, rated or documented by a HUMAN. THEN THERE WILL BE BIAS.

[Sauron]

*sigh* here we go again. Vulkan and DX12 are not mainstream and are only present in a handful of games, furthermore the vulkan version of Doom (which is the most widespread game that supports either of them) just got out and it's expected to be a little unstable at the moment.

 

Linus has criticized nvidia a lot in the past, he has said that the titan x made no sense and it's likely he's say the same about the xp. They test their cards with a benchmark set that is available for anyone to see, they can't test every game on the planet.

 

Even if a card wins out on a vulkan or dx12 title but it loses on every other game then it's still overall slower. Buying a card with vulkan in mind now doesn't make any sense unless you only care about the performance in that specific game.

 

Stop accusing LMG of bias when they haven't lied about any of their tests. Bias is changing the results to suit your view, not showing real results that go against somebody else's view.

[Brian McKee]

3 hours ago, ttam said:

Sorry but 10 frames in a benchmark is worlds apart. 

So is the extra 50 dollars on launch MSRP lol...

 

Not saying the review is bias btw, it's pretty clear they're not bias when you watch the WAN show. I just think the review was poorly made and rushed out.

[Slick]

I actually don't understand feedback these days.

 

I swear people don't watch the video - Or if they do they just skip to graphs and ignore everything I say. 

 

"But this isn't the whole story and.. AMD fans.. before you head down into the comments and start screaming at me for being KIND OF a shill at this point.. we must recognize that the 1060 is 25 to 50% more expensive than the RX480 and that's where the conversation changes.. In the dollars per frame race the RX 480 wins EVERY SINGLE TIME."

 

Then I just talk about how both the price and performance deltas are significantly different 

 

I didn't say the 480 was bad

 

1) " he said the 1060 walked all over the rx 480. The highest difference was 10 frames in a dx11 game. "

 

I did.. That's because 10FPS is "walking all over something"

 

2) " When he went to give amd credit for something, his voice lowered a bit, and seemed hesitant. "

 

You're hearing things you want to hear. Sure there was a tonality change, I was changing what I was talking about. Became hesitant? Come on dude.. I scripted my own video. I decided to put this in.. That's not hesitation. 

 

3) Where's Vulkan (which is supported by Valve) or DX12, where the rx480 beats out the 1060?

 

Vulkan came out like 2 days before the video was released. Due to editing scheduels and stuff our turn around time isn't that fast. Not only was I not even in the same country as our office when Vulkan was released but I didn't have time to completely re-do the video

 

DX12 is a broken mess that is having support pulled from multiple games due to glitches and bugs. 

 

I have a video that I'm working on overiewing both of these cool but not ready technologies 

 

4)  Next up is how scarcely I see Linus criticize nVidia products anymore.  It seems strange.

 

He doesn't review GPUs anymore.. Maybe that's it?

 

5)  Nest up is things that I've heard about involving nVidia and reviewers. Here's what I've pieced together: If a reviewer talks bad or puts a review criticizing nVidia, they don't get samples from nVidia anymore, and are discouraged. If a person leaves a good review though for nVidia, and make competitors look worse, they get more free stuff. Seeing as if we go with the talking I've heard that is industry standard for nVidia , and that Linus still receives items from nVidia, it is possible to conclude that he is creating a form of bias content.

 

Where's our resident conspiracy theorist? We could use him here.

 

We have a company of 13 people and a few contractors outside of that. You think 1 free GPU is worth risking our fanbase over? That is insanity and baseless. What might make an OUNCE of sense logically is if we were getting payouts but that is ALSO not happening. We are very transparent about what we're paid for. AMD has given us a lot more money for content than Nvidia has. Simple facts.

 

6)  I've also seen a bunch of nVidia fanboys lurk around the comments section, copy pasting stuff from a site as a reply. LTT is becoming an nVidia fanboy magnet from this. I'm pretty sure nVidia fans don't like people that talk about amd beating  nVidia in dx12 or Vulkan. This could also draw the conclusion that LTT is biased as well.

 

So because our fans like nvidia we must like nvidia as well?

We don't mind disagreeing with our fans. Hell Youtube seems to be thriving off of drama and controversy lately.. maybe we should do more of it.

 

7)  My last and final piece of evidence is the channel's subscriber count. If LTT had 10k or 100k subs, nVidia wouldn't care as much about the channel. But LTT is one of the biggest channels out their, nearly at 3 million subscribers. If they criticize nVidia, nVidia would take quite the hit. In order to keep this from happening, nVidia most likely pays and gives free stuff to LTT to keep nVidia afloat.

 

This is evidence? What? Your EVIDENCE is LITERALLY just our subscriber count? Nvidia doesn't pay us for reviews in any form.

 

One of my more successful videos lately literally had a whole section in it where I went after them for mistreating their enthusiast audience. 

 

 

I'm open to criticism.. Especially when it's constructive. I'd be more than happy to address legitimate claims with legitimate evidence. This is not that. People want to be mad right now, AMD and the RX480 are the current flavor of the month and with good reason.. It's a wonderful card at a VERY appealing price point.. especially for how it performs. Be happy with your new card, if you bought one - then proceed to move on. There is no conflict here, you're just creating one.

 

[App4that]

Wow, that's cool. Don't think I've seen the boss comment yet. (I say boss because we all know who the brains of the organization is) 

 

Now if you'll excuse me I have a sudden urge to buy a very low end Nvidia graphics card. No idea why.

[♠FlamieMeister♠]

Now let me reply: you act as if I I didn't watch your video fully, but I did. Let me set up something here that you may or may not understand: The way you phrased the review was something that sounded bias to me. Not the whole thing, just certain parts. I still enjoy your content, but after seeing what recent things reviewers have been doing, I started to expect LTT. Even one of the guys in this comment section said that posting a negative review would cause nVidia to lose some money. The fury x review sample  was one of them where amd did something to the cards to make it better. It's one thing if companies were more open. nVidia though tends to keep a shroud around their coding and products, which makes me more suspicious about them. It was late at night, so that may have played a card in #2 of the text you highlighted. Plus, remember how I put the magic card could, not definite. That there  is my defense. Also, I understand the title could've been clickbaity with me forgetting the could word. Now I fully expect a response from people saying something akin to "You just got beat get rekt n00b" because of this, but this is imo, and my opinion was that LTT could be biased.

[BuckGup]

The one thing I will comment is about all the new Pascal cards. All benchmarks with 980tis are not overclocked while the other cards are making it seem like a good upgrade when in reality the 980ti can match a stock 1080. Pascal=Maxwell 2.0 "The way your meant to be played"

[Teddy07]

First rule of life is to trust nobody 100% because everyone will fuck you up if the price is right.