PSU Tier List [OLD]

[Rexper]

19 minutes ago, thinwalrus said:

If those cheap caps were good enough, no one would use Japanese caps. There would no need to waste money on those more expensive parts.

Marketing... Mostly.

 

People, like you, see "100% Japanese Caps" and are more inclined to purchase.

[orbitalbuzzsaw]

1 minute ago, Rexper said:

Marketing... Mostly.

 

People, like you, see "100% Japanese Caps" and are more inclined to purchase.

Most of the "Japanese" caps are actually still made in China/Taiwan anyway

[Blademaster91]

5 minutes ago, OrbitalBuzzsaw said:

Most of the "Japanese" caps are actually still made in China/Taiwan anyway

Those caps will still have better quality control than some random no name brand, if it were just marketing OEM's wouldn't be putting Japanese brands into cheaper units.

[orbitalbuzzsaw]

1 minute ago, Blademaster91 said:

Those caps will still have better quality control than some random no name brand, if it were just marketing OEM's wouldn't be putting Japanese brands into cheaper units.

That's not *incorrect* but some of the Chinese brands still have quite good caps

[thinwalrus]

1 hour ago, OrbitalBuzzsaw said:

That's not *incorrect* but some of the Chinese brands still have quite good caps

But I dont get whats the point getting so emotional over this stuff. A unit with planned obsolescence on parts is not on par with quality units. Thats why you dont see 10-12 warranties with psu:s that have cheap Chinese parts inside. Its not like you are going to break the bank on a ~85€ 550W psu that has 10year warranty and no compromise on parts or otherwise. Worse parts and half the warranty might be worth it you pay half the price.

[Blademaster91]

1 hour ago, OrbitalBuzzsaw said:

That's not *incorrect* but some of the Chinese brands still have quite good caps

I was just thinking of ones like the old Corsair CX psu's that had a low temp rating on the caps. I don't think caps are everything in a PSU especially when the rest of it has to be quality parts for efficiency.

[orbitalbuzzsaw]

Just now, Blademaster91 said:

I was just thinking of ones like the old Corsair CX psu's that had a low temp rating on the caps. I don't think caps are everything in a PSU especially when the rest of it has to be quality parts for efficiency.

That's certainly true.

[Stefan Payne]

2 hours ago, thinwalrus said:

If those cheap caps were good enough, no one would use Japanese caps.

Yeah, if *insertrandomoperatingsystem* or *insertrandomCPUarchitecture* was better, no one would use Windows on x86. 
I totally agree.... 

NOT...

 

You know that there is something like Marketing?
And people having no idea about capacitors and still believing the shit from 30 years ago because that's when they lerned it and never again looked into it again...

2 hours ago, thinwalrus said:

There would no need to waste money on those more expensive parts.

Marketing

2 hours ago, thinwalrus said:

You are making comparisons on compromises. I would not make a compromise. Are you a Be Quiet rep?

Are you a Seasonic rep?

Or why are you propagating the use of an almost 10 year old, group regulated unit??
 

Japanese caps don't make a shitty unit good. Its still shitty.

And a good unit is good regardless of the Cap choice as that should be the Icing on the Cake...

 

But really, how the heck did you come up with that shit when we were talking about COOLER MASTER??

Why do you think Cooler Master and be quiet are the same??

1 hour ago, Blademaster91 said:

Those caps will still have better quality control than some random no name brand, if it were just marketing OEM's wouldn't be putting Japanese brands into cheaper units.

How do you know that?
Did you see the factories and looked at it yourself?
If you have infos about that, pls share it with us.

18 minutes ago, thinwalrus said:

But I dont get whats the point getting so emotional over this stuff.

Because we're on the Internets and you know what's the #1 thing of the Internet?
If someone says something that might be wrong, there are people pointing it out and telling you that.

 

There is nothing emotional about that. But calling random people you don't know *insertcompany* Rep because you do not like what they have to say, is...

 

I tried to measure the temperature of Caps and the worst I got was around 45°C or so. When they are rated for 105°C.

And the Chemists say that ever 10°C the lifetime of components might double. So with 6 doubling of the lifetime, we are at a point where "normal aging" is a factor...

18 minutes ago, thinwalrus said:

A unit with planned obsolescence on parts is not on par with quality units.

Do you have proof about that claim?
Its not that simple.

I can put in some Nippon Chemicon KZN or Rubycon YXH or YXJ inside but when the 5VSB randomly explodes, the 12V Rectifiers randomly fail or some other random part fails or you can kill the thing by overloading minor rails because no OCP is there, its totally pointless.

That is something you don't want to see for whatever reason. You focus on one tiny part that you think is important - when it is not.

 

A well design PSU with shitty Caps lasts longer than a shitty designed one with good caps...

 

 

You just need to keep most of the Ripple Current away from the Lytics (wich seems to be done) and keep them cool and even the, by you, so called low quality Caps will last for many years. 

18 minutes ago, thinwalrus said:

Thats why you dont see 10-12 warranties with psu:s that have cheap Chinese parts inside.

You don't know what you're talking about, because a PSU made in China has most likely only "cheap chinese" parts inside because of the high import tax that china has, so it has to be manufactured inside of china.

To do that, you have to partner up with Chinese Companys...

For example work with "DONG GUANG KDK ALUMINUM FOIL MANUFACTURE LTD."...

 

 

And you remember the Warranty wars of Harddrive? When many Consumer harddrives had like 5-7 Years Warranty from Seagate and WD. Yeah, I've seen that. That the companys reduce the Warranty somwhere down the line for whatever reason...

Another thing you don't understand is that Warranty doesn't necessarily mean increased quality. It can also mean that they are financing it in one way or another. And if you look at the Terms:
You can't get your thing on eBay

You can't use it for mining

You can't use it here and there

You have to keep the receit

 

And so on. 

 

So basically the Warranty LENGTH is totally overrated...

 

So to put it blunt:
You rather have 3 Years with a local service point with like 3 lines Terms?? That can be sold wherever and to whomever, where you might actually be able to call someone with the old invention called a telephone.

You rather have 30 years with a central world wide service point in like Hong Kong, 30 lines of Terms including: only to the original purchaser, can't use it for this and that, only worksmanship is included, whining is not and a ton of other exclusions. ANd you can only contact it with an online web formular wich only works for like 3h per day. And for the Americans like 3am to 6am.

What would you prefer??
 

 

18 minutes ago, thinwalrus said:

Its not like you are going to break the bank on a ~85€ 550W psu that has 10year warranty and no compromise on parts or otherwise.

Yes a sub 100€ PSU that has 10 Years of Warranty. 

You see the Problem here??

Why would I want the 10 years on one of the cheapest components in my PC?!

Especially people who claim that Warranty is important and then buy something like Inno3D - who don't even have Warranty Terms on their Site (or didn't have it last time I checked) and an ASROCK Board, wich had only 1 Year of Warranty....

Yeah, the 10 Years of Waranty on the PSU is important.

 

Nobody cares that my 450€ GPU has 2 or 3 Years.

Nobody cares that my 300€+ CPU has 3 Years

Nobody cares that *insertsomething* has 3 Years, maybe 5.

 

But with PSU it is important!!111

 

And what do you do when ATX gets canned and the next generation (DDR5 SDRAM or DDR-6 SDRAM Plattform) doesn't work with ATX?

They kill off most of the voltages and now require 24V on the Board and a 12V Standby with 3A or more.

What do I do with the cheap ATX PSU with 10 Years warranty that still has 5 Years on it but doesn't work with that new Board?
 

And ATX is already more than 10 years older than its predecessor ever was...

And its total shit today because you have double regulation for example for the Memory and the Chipset because the ATX Connector only has 2 Pins with 12V.

 

And regulating things from a regulator that gets out of the PSU makes total sense....

ie AC -> Boost to ~400V (+/- 50V) convert it to 12V then convert it to 5V to convert it to the 1,xV you actually need for the Component totally makes sense - NOT... 

18 minutes ago, thinwalrus said:

Worse parts and half the warranty might be worth it you pay half the price.

That is not for you to decide.

And you shouldn't oversell the Warranty.

 

What is if they mess something up and get a big lawsuit that brings them down and they have to close up shop?

You still have 6 Years of Warranty. And your 12 Year Warranty thing is dead. As is the Company.

While the people who didn't care about the Warranty and bought their 3/5 Year Warranty thingy are still using it and still have low failure rates...

 

Its not as easy as you claim.

 

And there are some people talking about rather highish failure rates of some Seasonic units - the more expensive, larger ones that were around for a while...

Don't know if it is true...

[Stefan Payne]

Oh and have you realized that its only the "big 3" in the PSU Market that are probably the biggest in the Consumer market, that offer very long Warrantys for many PSU?? 

 

And smaller Companies like Silverstone, Thermaltake, Chieftec but also Cooler Master, Enermax but FSP as well don't usually offer 10 Years on most units?? And only on select few??

 

Only EVGA, Seasonic and Corsair have long Warranties on many units...

[Stefan Payne]

1 hour ago, Blademaster91 said:

I was just thinking of ones like the old Corsair CX psu's that had a low temp rating on the caps. I don't think caps are everything in a PSU especially when the rest of it has to be quality parts for efficiency.

Öhm, the "low temp rating caps" is not true.

Because there are no low ESR Caps from reputable manufacturers that have a temp rating lower than 105°C. 

 

So that only leaves "general Purpose" Caps. And here its not as cut and dry.

Manufacturer tend to put 105°C in, sometimes "for marketing purposes".

Because: My old NMB dual Sandwitch PCB PSU things had 85°C SMQ...

 

And: 85°C Caps often have higher Ripple Current rating.

So you gain higher temperature rating but loose Ripple Current.

 

Buttom line: There might not even be a real difference in lifetime between some 105°C and 85°C Caps.

 

Also keep in mind that ultra high ripple AC Caps that are used for starting a motor are usually rated for like 65°C as well...

 

3 hours ago, Rexper said:

Marketing... Mostly.

 

People, like you, see "100% Japanese Caps" and are more inclined to purchase.

Yeah, exactly. Saldly.

And Manufacturer print in bold letters "JAPANESE CAPACITOR" on the Box.

Even if it is just the Primary one, wich is of no relevance in good quality 230VAC areas. Only of interest for the low voltage areas and/or with shitty grid.

3 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

Those caps will still have better quality control than some random no name brand, if it were just marketing OEM's wouldn't be putting Japanese brands into cheaper units.

No, Mercedes is better than VW because VW has Lupo/Up, Mercedes doesn't.

 

A low end Nippon Chemicon (for example KZE) is a mid-higher end Teapo (in this case the SJ would be comperable).

The ones you usally see like SY and more often SC are below those.

 

And yes, it is marketing.

Same as that semi Fanless stuff, wich often does cause more Problems than it solves is another thing that is done mostly for marketing reasons.

With a good fan and fan controller you can archieve the same result without switching the fan off for example.

You "just" need to find a good quality fan that has low to no Bearing/Motor noise and use good Motor ICs and so on...

 

Or look at that Single Rail Nonsense. That's the absence of a protection that is sold as an advantage. Well, it is, at it can reduce the cost of a PSU because you don't need the coil/shint to measure the voltage, the traces to the Protection IC and can get away with a way simpler Protection IC as well.

And people in the Anglosphere believe(d) that it is an advantage/better...

[ZidaneTribal]

Hi guys,

Currently I'm using Seasonic M12II-620 Evo Bronze and somehow I read in other thread that M12II series are so fcking bad because of bla bla bla and bla. Now I'm worried about my PC parts 

My spec is i5 6600k with RTX 2060, if I change to gold efficiency, I probably choose Corsair RM 550x from 1st page (tier 1 list).

I choose it because it's a famous brand and know nothing about the other brands. Am I choosing the best one?

Thank you 

[Quadriplegic]

31 minutes ago, ZidaneTribal said:

Hi guys,

Currently I'm using Seasonic M12II-620 Evo Bronze and somehow I read in other thread that M12II series are so fcking bad because of bla bla bla and bla. Now I'm worried about my PC parts 

My spec is i5 6600k with RTX 2060, if I change to gold efficiency, I probably choose Corsair RM 550x from 1st page (tier 1 list).

I choose it because it's a famous brand and know nothing about the other brands. Am I choosing the best one?

Thank you 

RM550x is a very good option indeed, but it is hard to say which PSU is the best. I'd also check the prices of Bitfenix Whisper M and be Quiet! Straight Power 11

[ZidaneTribal]

12 minutes ago, Quadriplegic said:

RM550x is a very good option indeed, but it is hard to say which PSU is the best. I'd also check the prices of Bitfenix Whisper M and be Quiet! Straight Power 11

The cheapest is Bitfenix, the most expensive is Be quiet since it's 650W. 

[Stefan Payne]

2 hours ago, ZidaneTribal said:

Hi guys,

Currently I'm using Seasonic M12II-620 Evo Bronze

My spec is i5 6600k with RTX 2060, i

oO

Did you get the M12II-620 EVO Bronze recently or did you have it for like 5 years??

Its on the Market for almost 10 years...

 

Quote

and somehow I read in other thread that M12II series are so fcking bad because of bla bla bla and bla. Now I'm worried about my PC parts 

Its because it regulates 5V and 12V together, so if you load one rail and not the other, the voltages will go out of spec. 

And they lack protection -> if you slightly short your unit, it might not switch off and potentially cause a cable fire.

It doesn't have any OCP on any rail.
Even overheating protection is not there.

Undervoltage on 12V is also not there.

Quote

f I change to gold efficiency, I probably choose Corsair RM 550x from 1st page (tier 1 list).

I choose it because it's a famous brand and know nothing about the other brands. Am I choosing the best one?

Thank you 

Bitfenix Whisper M is a good option, Cougar GX-F if they are still active in your region (outside of Europe).

If you want it cheaper, the new Silverstone Strider Gold (ST55F-GS) is also a nice option if you see it. It started shipping like last week or so. Though its on the louder side at lower loads.

 

Straight Power 11/550W is also an option.

 

 

[thinwalrus]

On 3/3/2019 at 5:10 PM, Stefan Payne said:

Oh and have you realized that its only the "big 3" in the PSU Market that are probably the biggest in the Consumer market, that offer very long Warrantys for many PSU?? 

 

And smaller Companies like Silverstone, Thermaltake, Chieftec but also Cooler Master, Enermax but FSP as well don't usually offer 10 Years on most units?? And only on select few??

 

Only EVGA, Seasonic and Corsair have long Warranties on many units...

Longer warranty is better warranty. That is just an indisputable fact and laughable to claim it does not matter. 

 

Can you tell me why its a good choice to pick a psu with 5-9 years shorter warranty and worse caps for about the same money when both perform equally?

[LogicWeasel]

1 hour ago, thinwalrus said:

Longer warranty is better warranty. That is just an indisputable fact and laughable to claim it does not matter. 

You seem to keep missing the points he's making.  Warranty length doesn't encompass all that after-purchase support means.  He's saying the hoops you have to jump through to actually GET warranty coverage can be a big factor to consider also.  I agree with his logic that a 7 year warranty that's impossible to get service through isn't always better than a 3 year warranty where the company just helps you when stuff breaks without making you fax them a proof of purchase and spend 3 hours going back and forth in emails.

[Stefan Payne]

1 hour ago, thinwalrus said:

Longer warranty is better warranty. That is just an indisputable fact and laughable to claim it does not matter. 

This is where you're wrong. Because only errors in Worksmanship are covered by Warranty. If there is a change in the ATX specification, that makes your PSU incompatible with the upcoming stuff, you can kiss your warranty goodbye as it will not replaced as it is not a defect.

 

You have to look at the terms, where do you have to send the unit is it in your country or a different country.

What is required of you

What is excluded.

 

For example: Are you a Smoker? You smoke in front of the PC? YOu have an EVGA PSU? 

No warranty for you, mate. As that is excluded from the warranty.

 

 

 

You really don't seem to get that there are qualitative differences between warranties. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, thinwalrus said:

Can you tell me why its a good choice to pick a psu with 5-9 years shorter warranty and worse caps for about the same money when both perform equally?

Yes, because I have a local service partner, don't have to spend 25€ or so for shipping or just can go to the dealer and he/she replaces it at the store because that's what the manufacturer allows.

 

Because in the past you didn't need no Proof of purchase for example for Enermax as the Serialnumber was enough...

 

Anyway:
In the next 12 years, its entirely possible that your beloved long term warranty companys leave the consumer market, go bancrupt, stop making PSU, or go back to 5 Years.

And, obviously, a new Power Specification as well.

 

 

And there is another reason:
To support _SMALLER_ Companys...
As they tend to not offer 10 Years...

[ZidaneTribal]

12 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

oO

Did you get the M12II-620 EVO Bronze recently or did you have it for like 5 years??

Its on the Market for almost 10 years...

 

Its because it regulates 5V and 12V together, so if you load one rail and not the other, the voltages will go out of spec. 

And they lack protection -> if you slightly short your unit, it might not switch off and potentially cause a cable fire.

It doesn't have any OCP on any rail.
Even overheating protection is not there.

Undervoltage on 12V is also not there.

Bitfenix Whisper M is a good option, Cougar GX-F if they are still active in your region (outside of Europe).

If you want it cheaper, the new Silverstone Strider Gold (ST55F-GS) is also a nice option if you see it. It started shipping like last week or so. Though its on the louder side at lower loads.

 

Straight Power 11/550W is also an option.

 

 

I've been using it since Oct 2016. We dont have Be quiet straight power 550w here, the smallest is 650w.

 

Be quiet straight Power 11/650W = $117

Bitfenix Whisper BWG550M = $91

Corsair RM 550x = $106

It seems we dont have SS Strider Gold if the code ST55F-GS

Silverstone 650W SST-ET650-HG << lil bit similar, the price is $92.

I converted those prices from my currency.

[hello_there_123]

3 minutes ago, ZidaneTribal said:

I've been using it since Oct 2016. We dont have Be quiet straight power 550w here, the smallest is 650w.

 

Be quiet straight Power 11/650W = $117

Bitfenix Whisper BWG550M = $91

Corsair RM 550x = $106

It seems we dont have SS Strider Gold if the code ST55F-GS

Silverstone 650W SST-ET650-HG << lil bit similar, the price is $92.

I converted those prices from my currency.

whisper m 

[thinwalrus]

18 hours ago, Stefan Payne said:

This is where you're wrong. Because only errors in Worksmanship are covered by Warranty. If there is a change in the ATX specification, that makes your PSU incompatible with the upcoming stuff, you can kiss your warranty goodbye as it will not replaced as it is not a defect.

 

You have to look at the terms, where do you have to send the unit is it in your country or a different country.

What is required of you

What is excluded.

 

For example: Are you a Smoker? You smoke in front of the PC? YOu have an EVGA PSU? 

No warranty for you, mate. As that is excluded from the warranty.

 

 

 

You really don't seem to get that there are qualitative differences between warranties. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, because I have a local service partner, don't have to spend 25€ or so for shipping or just can go to the dealer and he/she replaces it at the store because that's what the manufacturer allows.

 

Because in the past you didn't need no Proof of purchase for example for Enermax as the Serialnumber was enough...

 

Anyway:
In the next 12 years, its entirely possible that your beloved long term warranty companys leave the consumer market, go bancrupt, stop making PSU, or go back to 5 Years.

And, obviously, a new Power Specification as well.

 

 

And there is another reason:
To support _SMALLER_ Companys...
As they tend to not offer 10 Years...

OK you are just unreasonable  So longer warranty is bad because I get a free a psu 5,5 years after it broke down. No postage paid nothing. Blue sticker hx620 upgraded to rm650x because the fan started to make some noise. Here in EU the company has to either spend 1000€:s to prove it did not break down from bad manufacturing process or just give a free psu. I'm having a hard time thinking what option might be cheaper

[thinwalrus]

19 hours ago, LogicWeasel said:

You seem to keep missing the points he's making.  Warranty length doesn't encompass all that after-purchase support means.  He's saying the hoops you have to jump through to actually GET warranty coverage can be a big factor to consider also.  I agree with his logic that a 7 year warranty that's impossible to get service through isn't always better than a 3 year warranty where the company just helps you when stuff breaks without making you fax them a proof of purchase and spend 3 hours going back and forth in emails.

What hoops? Sen an email to seller, get instructions for free postage, send it and wait for a new one. OK you might have to pay few euros for packing it if you dont have the original box saved(i did).

[Guest]

On 3/4/2019 at 12:39 PM, Stefan Payne said:

This is where you're wrong. Because only errors in Worksmanship are covered by Warranty. If there is a change in the ATX specification, that makes your PSU incompatible with the upcoming stuff, you can kiss your warranty goodbye as it will not replaced as it is not a defect.

No warranty covers obsolescence.  All any warranties only cover defects in workmanship.

 

Show me where you've seen otherwise.

[Stefan Payne]

17 minutes ago, jonnyGURU said:

No warranty covers obsolescence.  All any warranties only cover defects in workmanship.

 

Show me where you've seen otherwise.

I haven't.

That was my point. Thank you for clarifying it.

[Guest]

On 3/3/2019 at 7:57 AM, Stefan Payne said:

And Manufacturer print in bold letters "JAPANESE CAPACITOR" on the Box.

 

A low end Nippon Chemicon (for example KZE) is a mid-higher end Teapo (in this case the SJ would be comperable).

The ones you usally see like SY and more often SC are below those.

 

Yep.  Even the high-purity aluminum used comes from China now that almost every other Aluminum smelter in the world has shut down.  The Hall–Héroult process uses massive amounts of power and since the smelters in China are typically state-owned, they get subsidized electricity.  Yay socialism!

[Guest]

On 3/3/2019 at 7:57 AM, Stefan Payne said:

Same as that semi Fanless stuff, wich often does cause more Problems than it solves is another thing that is done mostly for marketing reasons.

With a good fan and fan controller you can archieve the same result without switching the fan off for example.

You "just" need to find a good quality fan that has low to no Bearing/Motor noise and use good Motor ICs and so on...

I agree and disagree with you at the same time. 

 

A properly implemented controller for semi-fanless is perfectly acceptable.  And the heat produced by a PSU at low loads, even a Bronze rated PSU, is so insignificant that there's no risk of damage to the PSU.

 

I do agree that a low RPM fan (say 400~500 RPM start) is nearly silent and a good solution, but you wouldn't want to use a DBB fan at low RPM (click, click, click) and the low noise hall sensor ICs are quite a bit more expensive than what's typically used.  Furthermore, the fan's motor would need fewer windings to allow it to spin at lower voltage and that causes noise similar to coil whine at those lower RPMs.  Using a PWM fan would solve this, but that's yet another cost adder.

 

At the end of the day, it's all about cost.  Sure, an FDB PWM fan with a low noise hall sensor IC controlled by an MCU with a starting RPM of 400 would be ideal... but Joe Enduser isn't going to want to pay for that.