"Brexit"

[Misanthrope]

7 hours ago, spartaman64 said:

mexico isnt as poor 

It actually was during the bulk of the migration. But even conceding that, I didn't say that there is no direct correlation between poverty and crime. I just said that it is far from the only factor: look at people in the US. Very poor Americans also have tons of violence and crimes in ghetto areas and such. But it's not systematic, organized and ideological violence like we see in Islam. Because if you take impoverished people an you add extreme religious dogma it amplifies the effect (this is my own version of intersectionality so to speak)

 

6 hours ago, CostcoSamples said:

-Quoted the wrong post, can't be arsed to go find again-

Big N/M for the above reason.

[spartaman64]

4 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

It actually was during the bulk of the migration. But even conceding that, I didn't say that there is no direct correlation between poverty and crime. I just said that it is far from the only factor: look at people in the US. Very poor Americans also have tons of violence and crimes in ghetto areas and such. But it's not systematic, organized and ideological violence like we see in Islam. Because if you take impoverished people an you add extreme religious dogma it amplifies the effect (this is my own version of intersectionality so to speak)

 

One point here though: shouldn't it be the responsibility of Religions themselves to police each other, draw clear distinctions, initiate reform and such? Why is it on us to keep apologizing for the few when faced by the actions of the many (or viceversa if you want for the sake of argument). In other words, how is this not just a No True Scotsman argument?

they already have radical ideals even without islam. even if the countries over there were all christian you bet your ass that people can twist christianity to drive them to do the same things islam isnt unique in that respect. or even if there was no religion and they were all atheists 

[Misanthrope]

12 minutes ago, gcubed said:

You are missing my point. This has absolutely nothing to do with what an adult is free to believe, and everything to do with what indoctrination they want their children to undergo.

 

You don't want you kids to undergo any kind of religious indoctrination. Yet you are insisting that all children undergo a secular indoctrination without even a hint that there are other views. I am telling you, you had better be prepared to kill every religious parent on the planet. Also, even though I am an agnostic (look it up if you don't know what that means), I am likely to side with them just to spite you. Freedom of Speach? After you have taught the kids to parrot the party line? Give me a  break.

Can you tell me what exactly is secular indoctrination? I am going to indoctrinate you into the fact that you should be impartial, logical, form your own opinions and thoughts, respect the points of others and debate them instead of censoring them and silencing them, etc.?

 

Do you understand that there isn't such a thing as a secular indoctrination that discourages looking into other views?

[gcubed]

3 hours ago, Uzukami said:

I'm pretty sure Democracy allows me to bitch the decision it made, especially since the uneducated and old tipped the decision in favour of leave.

 

I understand that not everyone who voted leave didn't do it because of a low level of education or racism, but leave won by 1.9% I highly doubt that less than that percentage wasn't driven by racism.

Heh, we have an individual here in the USA that loves to meddle in the affairs of other nations (more than one individual actually, but the one I am thinking of is considered a big thing here). It is entirely likely that he influenced the vote. I can't think of anything that would honk off a Brit more than to have the President of the United States of America come out and say something along the lines of, "If you go through with this, prepare to stand at the end of the line when it comes to negotiating trade agreements with us." Just how many people in the UK switched their vote from Remain to Exit after hearing that little bit of wisdom?

 

 

[Misanthrope]

10 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

they already have radical ideals even without islam. even if the countries over there were all christian you bet your ass that people can twist christianity to drive them to do the same things islam isnt unique in that respect. or even if there was no religion and they were all atheists 

I already discussed this: there is no need to twist anything whenever you're a Muslim:

Quote

80. And (remember) Lout (Lot), when he said to his people: "Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns)?

81. "Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (by committing great sins)."

82. And the answer of his people was only that they said: "Drive them out of your town, these are indeed men who want to be pure (from sins)!"

83. Then We saved him and his family, except his wife; she was of those who remained behind (in the torment).

84. And We rained down on them a rain (of stones). Then see what was the end of the Mujrimun (criminals, polytheists, sinners, etc.).

85. And to (the people of) Madyan (Midian), (We sent) their brother Shu'aib. He said: "O my people! Worship Allah! You have no other Ilah (God) but Him. [La ilaha ill-Allah (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah)]." Verily, a clear proof (sign) from your Lord has come unto you; so give full measure and full weight and wrong not men in their things, and do not mischief on the earth after it has been set in order, that will be better for you, if you are believers.

Or a Christian:

Quote

And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

I don't see much Twisting I see direct commands from Allah and Yahweh. If anyone needs to do mental gymnastics to re-conciliate their abhorrent belief system with modern society is reformed religious people. 

[spartaman64]

2 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

I already discussed this: there is no need to twist anything whenever you're a Muslim:

As well as in the bible:

I don't see much Twisting I see direct commands from Allah and Yahweh. If anything needs to do mental gymnastics to re-conciliate their abhorrent belief system with modern society is reformed religious people. 

and there are also passages in the koran and bible telling you to love your neighbors and treat even non believers as your brothers and sisters

[Misanthrope]

1 minute ago, spartaman64 said:

and there are also passages in the koran and bible telling you to love your neighbors and treat even non believers as your brothers and sisters

I'll take the loveless neighbors that would still learn to tolerate one another in modern society vs the preachy ones telling me to love my neighbor but chop of his fucking head if he leaves his one true religion (of peace!) or the other guy telling me to kill homosexuals and stone women to death over adultery.

 

This is not difficult to understand: cherry picking the parts of the Bible and the Quran you find reasonable it's still hypocritical vs just stop fucking letting fairy tales written by goat hearders and war lords thousands of years ago dictate law and how we treat each other, even if they had painfully obvious yet still good ideas such ideas do not justify kissing Hank's Ass:

 

 

[Mug]

Alright, well now my new biggest concern isn't the economy but politics.

 

Those in Scotland don't seem to understand that Scotland is a region of the UK - and as a country the UK voted for leave. Look, Scotland, I didn't like the result either but we're a country for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer. The union is legitimate, you voted for it. Now stick to your promises.

For Northern Ireland, I do question the legitimacy of the union there but you know, it is what it is and (well) I would hate to see it leave over a mere 10% margin an a poll that has nothing to do with unionism. I also don't like the idea that Nationalists are spreading rumours already that borders will go back up, this is ridiculous. We haven't even started the negotiations yet and this is happening. What should happen is a continuation of how it currently is - Citizens born in either side of the island can change their citizenship, no borders etc. This is ridiculous.

 

As for macro-politics, David Cameron has gone so... what now? People wanting to get rid of him are clueless, nobody likes him but he's better than the Conservative alternatives, Boris, Theresa, George etc. It's as if this vote has changed everything.

[spartaman64]

35 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

I'll take the loveless neighbors that would still learn to tolerate one another in modern society vs the preachy ones telling me to love my neighbor but chop of his fucking head if he leaves his one true religion (of peace!) or the other guy telling me to kill homosexuals and stone women to death over adultery.

 

This is not difficult to understand: cherry picking the parts of the Bible and the Quran you find reasonable it's still hypocritical vs just stop fucking letting fairy tales written by goat hearders and war lords thousands of years ago dictate law and how we treat each other, even if they had painfully obvious yet still good ideas such ideas do not justify kissing Hank's Ass:

 

 

um i just told you there are passages in the koran saying love your neighbor even if they are not muslims and muhammad wrote in the constitution of medina that people that are not muslims get the same protection under the law. of course its wrong when people say other people should die if they dont follow their religious belief but I unlike many other people dont get offended when a christian or muslim tries to convert me in fact im flattered that they care so much about me that they want to save my soul so when christians and muslims say that gay people should try not to be gay unless they try to force them of course i urge people not to take offense at that. and you have to understand that very few muslims are arab muslims and even fewer are terrorists and there are radical violent christian and atheistic regimes so religion doesnt matter hate is hate. and i find it funny that you are preaching intolerance towards muslims to counter act their supposed intolerance. fighting intolerance with intolerance is just pure contradiction and thats when the people who are actually intolerant wins. the people like ISIS who say we cant tolerate each other and muslims and christians and atheists cannot possibly live with each other. well i'd like to prove them wrong and taking your view is validating their beliefs

[Misanthrope]

2 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

um i just told you there are passages in the koran ....

You just repeated the exact same arguments without addressing any of the points I made, good for you.

 

Quote

and i find it funny that you are preaching intolerance towards muslims to counter act their supposed intolerance. 

 

Being intolerant of religion (something which I am not, read the previous post about secularism if you care, though I'm sure you don't and you won't) it's still not being intolerant of people since religions are ideas people CHOOSE to adhere to. 

 

So yeah if someone tells me "We must kill homosexuals, Death is the sentence" right in Orlando, Florida and someone else follows said command, I am going to have a problem with both and with the hateful fucking ideas about killing homosexuals they promote and execute. People who don't want to be viewed as bigots can stop being bigots, they can stop supporting bigots, they can stop covering up bigots, they can stop enabling bigots. They can stop calling themselves Muslims just because the sick fucking text also say "Oh and love each other too I guess" somewhere there.

 

 

[othertomperson]

Sinn Fein have been called opportunists for calling for reunification over this. Personally I agree with them -- the protestants of Northern Ireland should be able to decide whether being part of a unified Ireland is worth it to them if it means staying in the EU.

 

Same for Scotland. And London, actually. The issue of London becoming an independent City-State comes up quite often. It has a bigger population than Wales and Scotland combined and none of the devolved powers.

 

David Cameron's blunder in pandering to the extremists in his own party could well cause the obliteration of the entire UK. That'll put the pig business into perspective, at any rate.

[Quinnbeast]

24 minutes ago, Mug said:

Those in Scotland don't seem to understand that Scotland is a region of the UK - and as a country the UK voted for leave. Look, Scotland, I didn't like the result either but we're a country for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer. The union is legitimate, you voted for it. Now stick to your promises.

 

Are you going out of your way to be obtuse? Scotland is a country in political union with three others, which collectively make up the UK. The United Kingdom is a union (sovereign state) containing four countries and not a country in it's own right.

 

Please stick to fathoming out the abject failures of your own country (England I assume?) before you attempt to impose any of your own misunderstandings on anyone else. I personally did not vote for "it", do not consider it to be legitimate, and do not recognise the "promises" you're speaking of.

 

Also - get your history books out. The union of 1707 was arguably illegitimate from the off, and we'll likely know within a few months whether a 2nd Scottish referendum is on the cards. Democracy is an on-going process, not once-in-a-generation event. Get used to it.

[Mug]

11 minutes ago, Quinnbeast said:

 

Are you going out of your way to be obtuse? Scotland is a country in political union with three others, which collectively make up the UK. The United Kingdom is a union (sovereign state) containing four countries and not a country in it's own right.

 

Please stick to fathoming out the abject failures of your own country (England I assume?) before you attempt to impose any of your own misunderstandings on anyone else. I personally did not vote for "it", do not consider it to be legitimate, and do not recognise the "promises" you're speaking of.

 

Also - get your history books out. The union of 1707 was arguably illegitimate from the off - we'll likely know within a few months whether a 2nd Scottish referendum is on the cards. Democracy is an on going process, not once-in-a-generation event. Get used to it.

It's just as much of a country as Texas. It doesn't meet the full definition to be called a country, neither does England or any part of the union.

 

You may have rejected it yourself, but the union is legitimate, the majority of scots voted for it. Democracy isn't having more referendums until you get the result you want. Democracy is accepting the will of the people, which was to be a part of the UK. The will of the people of the United Kingdom in this case is to leave, so we will leave as a United Kingdom. Few people I know like the result but you know, we have what we have and I'm passionate that we stay together through thick and thin like we have for so long, this is our country and our country I'd like it to remain.

[spartaman64]

14 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

You just repeated the exact same arguments without addressing any of the points I made, good for you.

 

 

Being intolerant of religion (something which I am not, read the previous post about secularism if you care, though I'm sure you don't and you won't) it's still not being intolerant of people since religions are ideas people CHOOSE to adhere to. 

 

So yeah if someone tells me "We must kill homosexuals, Death is the sentence" right in Orlando, Florida and someone else follows said command, I am going to have a problem with both and with the hateful fucking ideas about killing homosexuals they promote and execute. People who don't want to be viewed as bigots can stop being bigots, they can stop supporting bigots, they can stop covering up bigots, they can stop enabling bigots. They can stop calling themselves Muslims just because the sick fucking text also say "Oh and love each other too I guess" somewhere there.

 

 

so you take the example of one person or a few thousand and apply it to over a billion people and say they must believe the same thing? you really need to get to know some muslims before drawing these conclusions i promise they are not going to bite they are actually really nice people. and this (brexit) isnt really a muslim issue but an tribalism issue. as one of the main proponents for brexit Nigel Farage said the following "britain is becoming unrecognizable and nobody speaks english anymore." you see there the crux of it isnt different religions its anyone thats different. someone that speaks german, someone that speaks japanese, somebody that looks indian somebody that looks chinese these are all the people that anti immigration proponents for brexit want out of their country not just muslims. 

[Misanthrope]

28 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

so you take the example of one person or a few thousand and apply it to over a billion people and say they must believe the same thing? you really need to get to know some muslims before drawing these conclusions i promise they are not going to bite they are actually really nice people. and this (brexit) isnt really a muslim issue but an tribalism issue. as one of the main proponents for brexit Nigel Farage said the following "britain is becoming unrecognizable and nobody speaks english anymore." you see there the crux of it isnt different religions its anyone thats different. someone that speaks german, someone that speaks japanese, somebody that looks indian somebody that looks chinese these are all the people that anti immigration proponents for brexit want out of their country not just muslims. 

Sure, 1 person. Is not like is an opinion held by up to 30 and 40% or more of all western based Muslims or anything:

 

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/articles/opinion-polls.aspx

 

Quote

Policy Exchange: 61% of British Muslims want homosexuality punished

Edit: if you (or anyone) is not easily triggered I've found this hilarious:

Spoiler

 

 

[Moress]

5 hours ago, CostcoSamples said:

I'm just telling  my personal experience, you don't have to believe it.  But for myself, I have empirical evidence that the no go zones do in fact exist.  You do not have the same proof and must go by what you read.

 

I have no idea what the cops have been doing in France since 2003.  I do know that Muslim immigration has steadily increased, and the general approach by the French government has not changed a lot.  

 

Personal anecdotes are not empirical evidence. Try again.

Ive also been mugged by three Martians in Chicago so I guess its time to build the space wall. I have empirical evidence after all.

[Misanthrope]

5 minutes ago, Moress said:

Personal anecdotes are not empirical evidence. Try again.

Nice to see someone else point this out:

[stconquest]

8 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

Sure, 1 person. Is not like is an opinion held by up to 30 and 40% or more of all western based Muslims or anything:

 

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/articles/opinion-polls.aspx

 

 

What does that matter?  A lot of people believe a lot of stupid shit.  I get, you get it.  What do these possible opinions accomplish?  People will be protected by sensible laws, as some people are sensible.  Too much religion bashing.  Religion is a non-factor as it is a load of bullshit anyways.  You deal with it like any other set of lies or fallacies:  through education.

 

England was chemically castrating homosexuals well into the 20th century.  This shit ain't new.

[Misanthrope]

5 minutes ago, stconquest said:

What does that matter?  A lot of people believe a lot of stupid shit.  I get, you get it.  What do these possible opinions accomplish? 

They accomplish people being thrown off motherfucking buildings on the middle east. People constantly say it's a non-issue even when the exact same people are immigrating in great numbers, with basically no accountability: I already gave examples of German police hiding immigrant crimes. We already saw people refusing to even acknowledge the orlando shooter was a Muslim that wanted to kill people because of this ideas.

 

I am sorry but no it's not just possible opinions when we're seeing a call to fucking action everywhere.

[stconquest]

1 minute ago, Misanthrope said:

They accomplish people being thrown off motherfucking buildings on the middle east. People constantly say it's a non-issue even when the exact same people are immigrating in great numbers, with basically no accountability: I already gave examples of German policy hiding immigrant crimes. We already saw people refusing to even acknowledge the orlando shooter was a Muslim that wanted to kill people because of this ideas.

 

I am sorry but no it's not just possible opinions when we're seeing a call to fucking action everywhere.

Hey, the Orlando shooter was a homo.  He had multiple same sex partners.  He was brought up to believe that being gay was wrong.

[OhNoesItsDobby]

1 hour ago, Mug said:

Those in Scotland don't seem to understand that Scotland is a region of the UK - and as a country the UK voted for leave. Look, Scotland, I didn't like the result either but we're a country for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer. The union is legitimate, you voted for it. Now stick to your promises.

No, that's not fair at all. The UK is a political union made up of 4 countries, with Scotland being 1 of them, and as such it can act independently of the UK as it pleases to an extent. When Scotland had its independence referendum recently they did so under the pretense that the UK was still part of the EU. Scotland voted unanimously to remain in the EU yesterday, and now the UK is going to leave it against their collective will. Their situation has completely changed, it's only natural they'd want some control over what happens to them.

[Quinnbeast]

52 minutes ago, Mug said:

It's just as much of a country as Texas. It doesn't meet the definition to be called a country, neither does England or any part of the union.

 

You may have rejected it yourself, but the union is legitimate, the majority of scots voted for it. Democracy isn't having more referendums until you get the result you want. Democracy is accepting the will of the people, which was to be a part of the UK. The will of the people of the United Kingdom in this case is to leave, so we will leave as a United Kingdom. Few people I know like the result but you know, we have what we have and I'm passionate that we stay together through thick and thin like we have for so long, this is our country and our country I'd like it to remain.

 

Okay, so you are being intentionally obtuse. The USA is a country made of federal states; Texas is one of them. In it's history, it was an independent country for a period of 10 years during the 1800s. Scotland is a country in union with three others and has never lost it's status as a country and does not fit the criteria of federalism by an stretch. Your comparison between Scotland and Texas is simply wrong. I'm sorry if you don't understand that, or just intentionally ignore it because it doesn't fit your narrative; it makes no difference either way. If you were genuinely interested you could learn all of this easily for yourself.

 

Just so we are clear; attitudes like yours are one of the reasons that Scottish Independence will actually come about, and I say this as an Englishman. For some reason, a great many English citizens feel that they should be able to dictate the terms of what is supposed to be an equal union of four countries. The entire function of a referendum is to determine the will of the people, with the understanding that material and robust change in circumstances will in turn change that collective will. Who gets to say how often a democratic vote should occur? And on what basic would a time-frame be decided? Given the disparity between Scotland and England/Wales after the EU ref, it's self-evident that these three countries in particular do not see eye-to-eye on EU membership. So, that begs a question -

 

How do you determine the will of a country without a referendum (or similar measure)?

 

You can disagree with me all you want, but The Union is not your country. Scotland has been dragged out of EU Membership against it's will. Seriously though; anyone in England that feels the need to tell Scotland or N. Ireland what they can and can't do will hopefully realise that they're doing so while standing in a pile of their own faeces. To quote a little bird - "don't worry about what I'm doing, worry about what you're doing."

[Misanthrope]

40 minutes ago, stconquest said:

Hey, the Orlando shooter was a homo.  He had multiple same sex partners.  He was brought up to believe that being gay was wrong.

He also called 9/11 to declare allegiance to Isis. Being homosexual was not under his control. Being preached, from fucking birth, that his entire existence is an affront to Allah probably pushed him over the edge. How can anyone in good conscience say we shouldn't even focus on the fact that he's just following orders even if he was self loathing?

 

This is why it bothers me so much, religion IS an issue. Islam IS an issue. Refusing to even acknowledge, pretending is irrelevant, pretending unchecked immigration with 0 accountability is ok, pretending anyone who even has a slightly dissenting idea is instantly fucking Islamophobic it's a big part of the problem here. 

 

I am not saying you're necessarily promoting any of this but unbeknownst to you (or perhaps you do realize) you're basically promoting the accomplice behavior of the progressive left on this that constantly apologizes for this barbaric fucking religion bent on world domination and war. Saying Christians too diverts from the problem TODAY and not historically.

[Quinnbeast]

3 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

He also called 9/11 to declare allegiance to Isis. Being homosexual was not under his control. Being preached, from fucking bird, that his entire existence is an affront to Allah probably pushed him over the edge. How can anyone in good conscience say we shouldn't even focus on the fact that he's just following orders even if he was self loathing?

 

This is why it bothers me so much, religion IS an issue. Islam IS an issue. Refusing to even acknowledge, pretending is irrelevant, pretending unchecked immigration with 0 accountability is ok, pretending anyone who even has a slightly dissenting idea is instantly fucking Islamophobic it's a big part of the problem here. 

 

I am not saying you're necessarily promoting any of this but unbeknownst to you (or perhaps you do realize) you're basically promoting the accomplice behavior of the progressive left on this that constantly apologizes for this barbaric fucking religion bent on world domination and war. Saying Christians too diverts from the problem TODAY and not historically.

 

Is this still a thread on UK departure from the EU? 

[Trik'Stari]

5 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

He also called 9/11 to declare allegiance to Isis. Being homosexual was not under his control. Being preached, from fucking bird, that his entire existence is an affront to Allah probably pushed him over the edge. How can anyone in good conscience say we shouldn't even focus on the fact that he's just following orders even if he was self loathing?

 

This is why it bothers me so much, religion IS an issue. Islam IS an issue. Refusing to even acknowledge, pretending is irrelevant, pretending unchecked immigration with 0 accountability is ok, pretending anyone who even has a slightly dissenting idea is instantly fucking Islamophobic it's a big part of the problem here. 

 

I am not saying you're necessarily promoting any of this but unbeknownst to you (or perhaps you do realize) you're basically promoting the accomplice behavior of the progressive left on this that constantly apologizes for this barbaric fucking religion bent on world domination and war. Saying Christians too diverts from the problem TODAY and not historically.

You forget, (most of) the left is completely and totally incapable of entertaining any thought that is counter to their world view.

 

Which is HILARIOUS, considering the shit they constantly accuse everyone else of.