"Brexit"

[Mug]

13 hours ago, Quinnbeast said:

 

Okay, so you are being intentionally obtuse. The USA is a country made of federal states; Texas is one of them. In it's history, it was an independent country for a period of 10 years during the 1800s. Scotland is a country in union with three others and has never lost it's status as a country and does not fit the criteria of federalism by an stretch. Your comparison between Scotland and Texas is simply wrong. I'm sorry if you don't understand that, or just intentionally ignore it because it doesn't fit your narrative; it makes no difference either way. If you were genuinely interested you could learn all of this easily for yourself.

 

Just so we are clear; attitudes like yours are one of the reasons that Scottish Independence will actually come about, and I say this as an Englishman. For some reason, a great many English citizens feel that they should be able to dictate the terms of what is supposed to be an equal union of four countries. The entire function of a referendum is to determine the will of the people, with the understanding that material and robust change in circumstances will in turn change that collective will. Who gets to say how often a democratic vote should occur? And on what basic would a time-frame be decided? Given the disparity between Scotland and England/Wales after the EU ref, it's self-evident that these three countries in particular do not see eye-to-eye on EU membership. So, that begs a question -

 

How do you determine the will of a country without a referendum (or similar measure)?

 

You can disagree with me all you want, but The Union is not your country. Scotland has been dragged out of EU Membership against it's will. Seriously though; anyone in England that feels the need to tell Scotland or N. Ireland what they can and can't do will hopefully realise that they're doing so while standing in a pile of their own faeces. To quote a little bird - "don't worry about what I'm doing, worry about what you're doing."

I don't think there's any point in us arguing. I believe the union makes us one country and you believe it doesn't.

[Moress]

13 hours ago, Misanthrope said:

Alright alright I've derailed a bit, but surely you know muslim immigration was a pivotal issue here for both sides.

I would like to put it out there that not everyone in the middle east is Muslim. There are thousands of middle eastern Christians that are fleeing and looking for asylum in the EU.

[gcubed]

1 hour ago, Trik'Stari said:

Inb4 Quebec starts up again...

 

Let them try. Red Green duct taped Quebec to the rest of Canada, and as everyone knows, that stuff lasts forever.

 

[Unimportant]

1 hour ago, Mug said:

If people changed their money into dollars on the day before the referrendm then changed it back inton pounds the day after, they'd have made a tidy profit from Brexit.

Only if the pound recovers. If it does not prices will adjust higher to reflect the loss in value of the pound and you won't have any profit in real terms. Purchasing power is all that matters , not how many units of currency you have.

 

Unless you're talking leveraged trading, but you need some steel balls for that.

[Quinnbeast]

4 hours ago, Mug said:

I don't think there's any point in us arguing. I believe the union makes us one country and you believe it doesn't.

It's not a matter of opinion and I'm not arguing; you're just unable to admit some really basic facts. This is one-way traffic my friend and I could fill a few pages of relevant quotes, but I'm sure you'd still tell me it was just my opinion (LOL). I respect your right to be as obstinate as you like mate, however bizarre and pointless it may be.

 

"Although the United Kingdom, as a sovereign state, is a country, England, Scotland, Wales, and to a lesser degree, Northern Ireland, are also regarded as countries, though they are not sovereign states." (Wikipedia)

 

"The United Kingdom is made up of four countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland." (UK Gov National Archives)

 

"United Kingdom or UK or Britain is a sovereign state in the continent of Europe. It includes four countries, namely, England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales" (Maps of The World)

 

(Bold added for emphasis).

 

 

 

[Briggsy]

5 hours ago, Trik'Stari said:

Inb4 Quebec starts up again...

Yeah... the last Quebexit referendum was pretty scary. granted, it was more bluffing then an actual threat, but Quebec was talking about wanting to be a separate entity but still feed off of Canada as if they were still joined. People were driving across canada to vote against them leaving, mostly because if they want to leave they should leave 100%, not half leave. The notion that Quebec wanted their cake (leave) and eat it too (still benefit from Canada's wealth/resources) pissed off the rest of Canada like you wouldn't believe. I was in elementary school at the time, but it had a lot of people furious.

[ThinkWithPortals]

4 hours ago, Mug said:

I don't think there's any point in us arguing. I believe the union makes us one country and you believe it doesn't.

It's not a matter of opinion. The fact that Scotland is a country (as are the other nations in the UK) and the UK is not a country but a collection of them, is objective fact.

[Quinnbeast]

17 hours ago, Misanthrope said:

Alright alright I've derailed a bit, but surely you know muslim immigration was a pivotal issue here for both sides.

 

The issue of immigration was flogged like a dead horse relentlessly by the leave campaign for months on end, but was not specifically related to Muslim immigration. Most people with any amount of cognitive function know that the issue was a complete red herring and completely ignored 95% of the worthwhile debates that should have been had on other issues. Instead, Team Leave went with a debase and derogatory attempt to stir up xenophobic reactions from certain communities in order to win the referendum through dishonest means. The result is self-evident.

 

The leave campaign have already backtracked and confirmed that limited controls may be put in place regarding some circles of immigration, confirming what many already knew: their ranting was weapons-grade horseshit and a (successful) attempt to sideline any/all discussion of value. Meanwhile, anything vaguely resembling British values has been flushed down toilet in the process and has left communities ripped to shreds. Pivotal issue? I guess you could say that.

 

[Mug]

17 minutes ago, Quinnbeast said:

 

 

10 minutes ago, ThinkWithPortals said:

 

Ok well regardless of semantics, I think it would be a shame if any country was to exit from the union over this. In my opinion, splitting the union would be worse than leaving the EU.

[Mug]

@Quinnbeast

 

Side thing:

Do you reckon Scotland would secede knowing it could join the EU?

Would it still secede if it had to join the Euro?

Do you support Nicola Sturgeon calling for a second referendum in these times of uncertainty?

Just wondering that's all

 

[Misanthrope]

21 minutes ago, Quinnbeast said:

 

The issue of immigration was flogged like a dead horse relentlessly by the leave campaign for months on end, but was not specifically related to Muslim immigration. Most people with any amount of cognitive function know that the issue was a complete red herring and completely ignored 95% of the worthwhile debates that should have been had on other issues. Instead, Team Leave went with a debase and derogatory attempt to stir up xenophobic reactions from certain communities in order to win the referendum through dishonest means. The result is self-evident.

 

The leave campaign have already backtracked and confirmed that limited controls may be put in place regarding some circles of immigration, confirming what many already knew: their ranting was weapons-grade horseshit and a (successful) attempt to sideline any/all discussion of value. Meanwhile, anything vaguely resembling British values has been flushed down toilet in the process and has left communities ripped to shreds. Pivotal issue? I guess you could say that.

 

Xenophobic implies it was racial or specific countries at the very least. We're talking about a religion. I know you probably don't consider it relevant enough but I just cannot stress this enough specially this last couple of days in the face of endless racism accusations for something that isn't a fucking race and is a religion and value set shared by billions of people from thousands of different places from all over the world.

Even within the recent influx of Europe immigration you've got people from Africa, from the middle east, from Asia, etc.

[Trik'Stari]

35 minutes ago, Briggsy said:

Yeah... the last Quebexit referendum was pretty scary. granted, it was more bluffing then an actual threat, but Quebec was talking about wanting to be a separate entity but still feed off of Canada as if they were still joined. People were driving across canada to vote against them leaving, mostly because if they want to leave they should leave 100%, not half leave. The notion that Quebec wanted their cake (leave) and eat it too (still benefit from Canada's wealth/resources) pissed off the rest of Canada like you wouldn't believe. I was in elementary school at the time, but it had a lot of people furious.

Seems like Quebec is comprised of a bunch of assholes.

[Quinnbeast]

2 minutes ago, Mug said:

Ok well regardless of semantics, I think it would be a shame if any country was to exit from the union over this. In my opinion, splitting the union would be worse than leaving the EU.

 

Semantics? Oh come on, now you're just humoring your own need to hit the reply button. 

 

2 minutes ago, Mug said:

@Quinnbeast

 

Do you reckon Scotland would secede knowing it could join the EU?

 

Hard to say. A yes vote has gained massive momentum over the last two days and it's hard to know if that purely revolves around EU membership isolation or if it is an extension of bigger picture i.e. the thoroughly disgusting manner in which the right-wing (both politicians and public) have conducted themselves to achieve a successful leave vote. Many people who previously voted 'no' in the indyref are commenting on not wanting to be part of that sort of Britain, so EU membership perhaps only solves half of the problem.

 

9 minutes ago, Mug said:

@Quinnbeast

 

Would it still secede if it had to join the Euro?

 

Too early to say, but I'd like to think so. Otherwise it suggests that something as petty as the colour of money could override a massively important and complex decision. Personally, I don't give a shit about currency (in the nicest possible way), especially after the last two days. I'd like to have a stable currency in whatever format that comes, but ultimately it's all just 'beer tokens'. So long as I can pay my mortgage with it, it's good enough.

14 minutes ago, Mug said:

@Quinnbeast

 

Do you support Nicola Sturgeon calling for a second referendum in these times of uncertainty?

Yes. Now more than ever.

[Trik'Stari]

2 minutes ago, Quinnbeast said:

 

Semantics? Oh come on, now you're just humoring your own need to hit the reply button. 

 

 

Hard to say. A yes vote has gained massive momentum over the last two days and it's hard to know if that purely revolves around EU membership isolation or if it is an extension of bigger picture i.e. the thoroughly disgusting manner in which the right-wing (both politicians and public) have conducted themselves to achieve a successful leave vote. Many people who previously voted 'no' in the indyref are commenting on not wanting to be part of that sort of Britain, so EU membership perhaps only solves half of the problem.

 

 

Too early to say, but I'd like to think so. Otherwise it suggests that something as petty as the colour of money could override a massively important and complex decision. Personally, I don't give a shit about currency (in the nicest possible way), especially after the last two days. I'd like to have a stable currency in whatever format that comes, but ultimately it's all just 'beer tokens'. So long as I can pay my mortgage with it, it's good enough.

Yes. Now more than ever.

You'll never have stable currency, so long as the governments and banks of the world continue to use fiat currency with no real value other than "confidence".

[Mug]

4 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

Xenophobic implies it was racial or specific countries at the very least. We're talking about a religion. I know you probably don't consider it relevant enough but I just cannot stress this enough specially this last couple of days in the face of endless racism accusations for something that isn't a fucking race and is a religion and value set shared by billions of people from thousands of different places from all over the world.

Even within the recent influx of Europe immigration you've got people from Africa, from the middle east, from Asia, etc.

I can tell you that Islamic immigration wasn't an issue that the campaigns brough up. Immigration was an issue but it was Eastern European immigration (hence xenophobia). Nigel Farage was heavily cirticised for having a poster that depicted the refugee crisis though, and rightly so. That really was awful.

 

The main talking points for leave over the referendum was democracy, the £350m, patriotism and immigration from the EU.

[Briggsy]

5 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

Seems like Quebec is comprised of a bunch of assholes.

depends on where you go. if you can't speak fluent Français in some places (oxy moron, only France speaks proper Français), you may get some unpleasant treatment in stores, restaurants etc...

[Laputacake]

1 minute ago, Mug said:

I can tell you that Islamic immigration wasn't an issue that the campaigns brough up. Immigration was an issue but it was Eastern European immigration (hence xenophobia). Nigel Farage was heavily cirticised for having a poster that depicted the refugee crisis though, and rightly so. That really was awful.

 

The main talking points for leave over the referendum was democracy, the £350m, patriotism and immigration from the EU.

And the funny thing is nigel has said that the 350m was a lie.

[Misanthrope]

3 minutes ago, Mug said:

I can tell you that Islamic immigration wasn't an issue that the campaigns brough up. Immigration was an issue but it was Eastern European immigration (hence xenophobia). Nigel Farage was heavily cirticised for having a poster that depicted the refugee crisis though, and rightly so. That really was awful.

 

The main talking points for leave over the referendum was democracy, the £350m, patriotism and immigration from the EU.

That's fair enough and I'm glad that unlike most remainers you're not crying "racism".

[Misanthrope]

3 minutes ago, Laputacake said:

And the funny thing is nigel has said that the 350m was a lie.

That was pretty fucking funny tbh, politicians mate, can't find a fucking honest one.

[Laputacake]

1 minute ago, Misanthrope said:

That was pretty fucking funny tbh, politicians mate, can't find a fucking honest one.

Jose Mujica seems like an honest dude. But yea, back pedal for days.

[Trik'Stari]

8 minutes ago, Briggsy said:

depends on where you go. if you can't speak fluent Français in some places (oxy moron, only France speaks proper Français), you may get some unpleasant treatment in stores, restaurants etc...

I don't get why they want so badly to be French.

 

"1945 called, you should be speaking German." lol

[Quinnbeast]

39 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

Xenophobic implies it was racial or specific countries at the very least. We're talking about a religion. I know you probably don't consider it relevant enough but I just cannot stress this enough specially this last couple of days in the face of endless racism accusations for something that isn't a fucking race and is a religion and value set shared by billions of people from thousands of different places from all over the world.

Even within the recent influx of Europe immigration you've got people from Africa, from the middle east, from Asia, etc.

No, you're talking about religion, I'm talking about the EU referendum (as per the OP). What makes you think an average bigot can distinguish between a Muslim/Christian any more readily than they can distinguish someone as coming from specific country?

 

Do you honestly think that Muslim Europeans get verbal abuse but dark-skinned Christians don't? Your understanding of prejudice is very different from mine. It's about very little other than skin colour from what I've seen, and religion tends to be an issue only as a by-product of typical religious followings in certain countries. Your reply is the first I've heard in the entire referendum campaign that this is a Muslim issue - you'll have to excuse me if I disagree. Bigots (in the UK at least) have no need to make such distinctions.

 

 

[Unimportant]

13 minutes ago, Quinnbeast said:

 

Too early to say, but I'd like to think so. Otherwise it suggests that something as petty as the colour of money could override a massively important and complex decision. Personally, I don't give a shit about currency (in the nicest possible way), especially after the last two days. I'd like to have a stable currency in whatever format that comes, but ultimately it's all just 'beer tokens'. So long as I can pay my mortgage with it, it's good enough.

 

 

As a debtor you're actually helped by a depreciating currency, if your mortgage is in GBP it just became 8% cheaper (for now), congratz...

 

Although i think less government is better, all these rules, regulations and taxes impede the real economy. If the UK grabs this chance to go to a free-er economy it will boom and the pound might soar - long term.

 

"When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion—when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing—when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors—when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don’t protect you against them, but protect them against you—when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice—you may know that your society is doomed."

- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged.

 

 

[Quinnbeast]

19 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

You'll never have stable currency, so long as the governments and banks of the world continue to use fiat currency with no real value other than "confidence".

 

I said "I'd like to", which isn't the same as "I'm expecting to". But, thanks for your advice. Did you enjoy seeing £120 billion wiped off the FTSE100 in 10 minutes? Made me laugh out loud.

[Unimportant]

I did enjoy hammering F5 on goldprice.org tough.