"Brexit"

[Overkilled]

On 6/23/2016 at 9:46 AM, Thorium19 said:

Okay, for those people who are voting to leave the EU, or have yet to make their mind up, allow me to help you with reasons why we should stay.
1. Roughly only 12% or so of our laws come from the EU, and the UK has agreed to every single one of them. They have not been forced upon us, remember, we vote for MEPs who are our voice as a nation in the EU, much like our MPS are our voice in parliament.
2. We pay £190 million per week to the EU, not £350 million, which totals up to 0.6% of our entire GDP, which is nothing compared to how much goes into the NHS and the rest of the government spending.
3. Currently, the EU accounts for 40% of our exports as a nation. Imagine taking away 40% of your income and trying to get by that large a cut, whilst still living the way you do.
4. If we leave the EU and still wish to trade with them, it will cost us a similar amount to how much we have to pay to the EU already per year in tax just to gain access to the common market. We will also have to agree to whatever the EU wants us to if we want to continue trade. This will certainly include taking in migrants, likely more than we already take in.
5. For those who complain that immigrants are stealing UK jobs, bear in mind the people who are coming over and actually working are already trained, with a better education than the vast majority of those who are competing for the same jobs.
6. If we vote leave, we will be going against the advice of near enough every financial organisation that has taken any interest in the referendum, with every one of them stating we will have a decreased GDP and will almost certainly go into another recession.
7. If we vote leave, we will be siding with Putin, Farage and Trump for example. If we vote remain, we will be siding with Obama, Sturgeon and Branson to name a few.
8. The UK does not have an empire anymore, there’s no “Splendid isolationism” or anything like the 19th century and early 20th century anymore, we live in a globalised age where we cannot afford to be left alone to fend for ourselves. The empire now consists of a few small islands far far away who will not be able to make up for 500 million+ people in the EU.
9. the UK is part of europe as a continent, we are not stuck on the side of America, we are a small island 22 miles off the coast of France. Therefore, it would be foolish to not stay in the European Union, to help make the continent a better place than it is already.
10. If we leave, we cannot decide 5 years down the line that we don’t like how things have gone and we’ll vote to rejoin. This isn’t a general election, this is the biggest vote that you will likely ever have in your entire life, and if you don’t feel 100% certain in your decision, then vote to remain, because we can always have another referendum to leave, but we can’t have one to rejoin.

TL;DR we voted leave.

[Mug]

34 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

That's fair enough and I'm glad that unlike most remainers you're not crying "racism".

Well if you were to call Eastern Europeans 'slavic' I suppose it could turn into a race issue.

[Trik'Stari]

33 minutes ago, Quinnbeast said:

 

I said "I'd like to", which isn't the same as "I'm expecting to". But, thanks for your advice. Did you enjoy seeing £120 billion wiped off the FTSE100 in 10 minutes? Made me laugh out loud.

I do indeed.

 

I'd like to see the lower classes in the UK start buying up all the stocks, and laugh when it goes back up and the rich panic because everyone else is now as rich as them.

[Mug]

2 minutes ago, theninja35 said:

I'm still not educated on this, but it seems to be something that will be in the History books in the future.

 

What is the big worry about leaving the EU or not? Money? People? Goods? Can someone please describe to me the issue that is developing, but describe it in such a way that a young child could understand it (not literally, but simple please)? This won't cause a war, I believe, but it seems a few people are upset because of economic-based reasons.

It's just a little less severe than a state from the USA seceding from the union       

[Trik'Stari]

5 minutes ago, theninja35 said:

I'm still not educated on this, but it seems to be something that will be in the History books in the future.

 

What is the big worry about leaving the EU or not? Money? People? Goods? Can someone please describe to me the issue that is developing, but describe it in such a way that a young child could understand it (not literally, but simple please)? This won't cause a war, I believe, but it seems a few people are upset because of economic-based reasons.

Mostly, the left is angry because they're realizing not everyone shares their globalist dreams. Some people, it turns out, would like to have their country be unique, instead of being the lefist ideal of everywhere being exactly the same smattering of different cultures combined into one.

 

At least, that's how I see it.

[awesomeness10120]

4 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

Mostly, the left is angry because they're realizing not everyone shares their globalist dreams. Some people, it turns out, would like to have their country be unique, instead of being the lefist ideal of everywhere being exactly the same smattering of different cultures combined into one.

 

At least, that's how I see it.

I would say the FAR left voted to remain due to what you said, but I think that most people voted to remain because they either don't like change or they want the economy to remain stable.

[Mug]

2 minutes ago, theninja35 said:

Well, if that state happens to be Ohio I think everyone would be okay with it. I appreciate the comparison, I think it has made this topic easier.

Yeah it is a bit like that, many Europeans despise the fact that Britain had this special deal with the EU. The British don't share the same goals as the EU. I am pro-EU to the extent that I'd be a part of a so-called united states of Europe but most of Britain doesn't share this feeling, and are patriotic for Britain rather than citizens of the world.        

[Trik'Stari]

1 minute ago, awesomeness10120 said:

I would say the FAR left voted to remain due to what you said, but I think that most people voted to remain because they either don't like change or they want the economy to remain stable.

Having an economy remain stable, is counter to how "free market economies" are supposed to work.

 

They're supposed to grow, fall, then grow again, then fall again, so on and so forth. No company should ever be too big to fail

[Mug]

6 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

Having an economy remain stable, is counter to how "free market economies" are supposed to work.

 

They're supposed to grow, fall, then grow again, then fall again, so on and so forth. No company should ever be too big to fail

Relatively stable. 

[Unimportant]

2 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

Having an economy remain stable, is counter to how "free market economies" are supposed to work.

 

They're supposed to grow, fall, then grow again, then fall again, so on and so forth. No company should ever be too big to fail

I'd beg to differ. This is the current state of affairs due to government and central bank meddling.

 

Artificial boom caused by cheap credit -> Inevitable Bust -> even cheaper credit boom -> Bust ...

And so on until credit can't be cheapened anymore, which is where we seem to be now (altough with negative interest rates, something deemed impossible not long ago, things could go on even longer).

 

A true free market can have (slower) sustained growth.

 

Source: Austrian school of economics ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School )

 

In short, money is the blood of an economy, and the world economies have a serious case of leukemia. We need to return to sound money, anchored in the real world (backed by something real) to solve all this. The problem is the transition will be very painful and thus governments will not allow it to happen and just keep shooting the economy up with painkillers.

[Trik'Stari]

45 minutes ago, Mug said:

Relatively stable. 

Yes, but still.

 

This who "we must avoid the great depression" thing is kind of stupid. Companies NEED to fail occasionally, so that other businesses can grow, and then fail.

 

What you, the average person who isn't a CEO is supposed to do, is make smart choices with your money, that allows you and your family to generate long-term wealth. Such as buying a house, paying it off as fast as possible, etc. Buying a decent car, and keeping it running for a LONG time by performing maintenance instead of just buying a new car when that car "dies".

 

Far too many people opt for "let me buy a house I can't afford to ever pay off" or "oh, my engine/transmission died, let me go tens of thousands of dollars in the hole on a new car, rather than paying to replace that engine/transmission for a couple of grand".

 

We NEED to move away from a debt based economy, it's exactly WHY so many people are poor. Including many people whom others see as being "rich". Most of the time they just have enough credit to get into a huge amount of debt, and as soon as something serious happens they're completely fucked. How do I know this? Because it's what happened to my family. My parents spent too much on retarded things, and failed to pay off the things that mattered (cars, the house, etc) and then their respective employers went out of business / outsourced to India, and they lost everything.

 

TL;DR: You can't guarantee stable employment, regardless of the economy, so pay off important things and worry about clothes, nice computers, other luxury crap later on when you can actually afford it. (when you can lose your job, and not immediately lose your house and vehicle)

 

Or better yet, live cheap, buy things when you can afford them, don't enslave yourself financially.

[Mug]

19 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

Yes, but still.

 

This who "we must avoid the great depression" thing is kind of stupid. Companies NEED to fail occasionally, so that other businesses can grow, and then fail.

 

What you, the average person who isn't a CEO is supposed to do, is make smart choices with your money, that allows you and your family to generate long-term wealth. Such as buying a house, paying it off as fast as possible, etc. Buying a decent car, and keeping it running for a LONG time by performing maintenance instead of just buying a new car when that car "dies".

 

Far too many people opt for "let me buy a house I can't afford to ever pay off" or "oh, my engine/transmission died, let me go tens of thousands of dollars in the hole on a new car, rather than paying to replace that engine/transmission for a couple of grand".

 

We NEED to move away from a debt based economy, it's exactly WHY so many people are poor. Including many people whom others see as being "rich". Most of the time they just have enough credit to get into a huge amount of debt, and as soon as something serious happens they're completely fucked. How do I know this? Because it's what happened to my family. My parents spent too much on retarded things, and failed to pay off the things that mattered (cars, the house, etc) and then their respective employers went out of business / outsourced to India, and they lost everything.

 

TL;DR: You can't guarantee stable employment, regardless of the economy, so pay off important things and worry about clothes, nice computers, other luxury crap later on when you can actually afford it. (when you can lose your job, and not immediately lose your house and vehicle)

 

Or better yet, live cheap, buy things when you can afford them, don't enslave yourself financially.

I agree but I thing that we should encourage companies to grow rather than what we did which was to vote for recession. The people will be affected by thiis decision, and the working class are always the ones affected the worst in this country by  recessions. I also don't think that the rest of the UK lives like me. The only debt I have is a mortgage  and student loan. Consumer debt in the UK is huge. This decision was not good for the UK because it wasn't ready and now, were going to have to spend my tax money to prop up the banks after the British people had a moment of insanity.

[Trik'Stari]

9 minutes ago, Mug said:

I agree but I thing that we should encourage companies to grow rather than what we did which was to vote for recession. The people will be affected by thiis decision, and the working class are always the ones affected the worst in this country by  recessions. I also don't think that the rest of the UK lives like me. The only debt I have is a mortgage  and student loan. Consumer debt in the UK is huge. This decision was not good for the UK because it wasn't ready and now, were going to have to spend my tax money to prop up the banks after the British people had a moment of insanity.

Allow companies to rise up and replace the companies that go under / move to another country.

 

Part of what could fix this, is overhauling our patent/copyright systems. They need to be changed to allow for companies to create similar services/products under a different name, so that we can ACTUALLY HAVE COMPETITION.

 

"Oh, you're gonna move your company to another country because you can't make enough here? Guess what your patents are now invalid. You can still make and sell your product here, but so can anyone else, under a different name"

[Mug]

19 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

Allow companies to rise up and replace the companies that go under / move to another country.

 

Part of what could fix this, is overhauling our patent/copyright systems. They need to be changed to allow for companies to create similar services/products under a different name, so that we can ACTUALLY HAVE COMPETITI.        ?         ,   , 

Patent reform is easier out of the EU but it still ain't gonna happen and the economyy still isn't better out of the EU. Fundamentally, were screwed. Especially under a government that prefers auusterity over reform

[Donut417]

Although I think this will hurt the UK in the short term. I think in the long term this will be a good decision. I did some research about the EU for my international business class. Im not convinced the EU is good for all the nations that are involved. Also with the recent attacks in Europe I understand that immigration is a key factor in why the UK left the EU. Immigration is a big topic in the US. Mostly because of all the people who come across our borders illegally. I think the EU is a good idea, but I feel that the EU itself had too much power over individual nations. To me the EU should have only dealt with creating better trade policies and policies for Europe to work together, but they should not have the power to dictate immigration policies or border control policies. Ive heard the France in Italy might be next. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the poor nations like Greece decide to leave. I think this could be the beginning of the end of the EU. 

[Briggsy]

3 hours ago, Donut417 said:

Although I think this will hurt the UK in the short term. I think in the long term this will be a good decision. I did some research about the EU for my international business class. Im not convinced the EU is good for all the nations that are involved. Also with the recent attacks in Europe I understand that immigration is a key factor in why the UK left the EU. Immigration is a big topic in the US. Mostly because of all the people who come across our borders illegally. I think the EU is a good idea, but I feel that the EU itself had too much power over individual nations. To me the EU should have only dealt with creating better trade policies and policies for Europe to work together, but they should not have the power to dictate immigration policies or border control policies. Ive heard the France in Italy might be next. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the poor nations like Greece decide to leave. I think this could be the beginning of the end of the EU. 

A corrupt system is the reason brexit happened. The similarities between the old soviet union and the current european union are staggering. Different location, different atmosphere, different struggles, but side by side the same pieces are in the same places on two different chess boards. There is a great deal of denial still about why Britain decided to leave, and why other countries are considering the same. there's a lot of red herrings like racism, religious descrimination, immigration being thrown around, when the real problem is that the union itself is a festering breeding ground for political corruption. I agree, its probably the beginning of the end, and also a repeat of history.

[Mug]

2 hours ago, Briggsy said:

The similarities between the old soviet union and the current european union are staggering.

I disagree, the similarities between second Reich Germany and the EU are staggering.  I still voted remain tho.

• Same Upper house system
• Same voting system
• Same Lower house
• Same accountability
• Same way of dealing with (or not dealing with) issues within
• Same fundamental constitution

In short: the EU needs reform.

[AresKrieger]

5 hours ago, Mug said:

Patent reform is easier out of the EU but it still ain't gonna happen and the economyy still isn't better out of the EU. Fundamentally, were screwed. Especially under a government that prefers auusterity over reform

I think you guys were screwed either way, at least with being out of the EU you can try to influence the method of screwing if nothing else. Also the EU could have avoided this issue with one tweak, elections of commissioners. 

 

Though I didn't have a horse in this race anyway as an american and we won't know the end result for years I hope it works out for you guys.

[Mug]

9 hours ago, Quinnbeast said:

Hard to say. A yes vote has gained massive momentum over the last two days and it's hard to know if that purely revolves around EU membership isolation or if it is an extension of bigger picture i.e. the thoroughly disgusting manner in which the right-wing (both politicians and public) have conducted themselves to achieve a successful leave vote. Many people who previously voted 'no' in the indyref are commenting on not wanting to be part of that sort of Britain, so EU membership perhaps only solves half of the problem.

I suppose so, I really do understand this argument. I voted to stay and I obviously therefore dislike the fact that the UK voted to leave. However, xenophobia wasn't the only reason to vote leave (I went down to Hertfordshire to help my Grandfather with some  gardening (who is 95) and discussed this with him and he said he voted leave because he felt like it was undermining British democracy) so whilst I think that xenophobia was played on, it wasn't the only thing that influenced people. Some people voted leave for different reasons. I don't honestly think that the UK is any more xenophobic than any other country. Look at Germany, a beacon for pro-europeanism but yet its government's approval has tanked due to refugees. In reality, every country is that kind of country. Society has to move as slow as the slowest person and imo, our society is too progressive for some people in this country.

 

9 hours ago, Quinnbeast said:

Too early to say, but I'd like to think so. Otherwise it suggests that something as petty as the colour of money could override a massively important and complex decision. Personally, I don't give a shit about currency (in the nicest possible way), especially after the last two days. I'd like to have a stable currency in whatever format that comes, but ultimately it's all just 'beer tokens'. So long as I can pay my mortgage with it, it's good enough.

I suppose that's true but remember, more people voted to remain in the UK than voted to remain in the EU in Scotland. But I think that money is a real issue for the people of Scotland, one of the reasons that it voted to stay was the pound. The Euro is a failed project. We all know that monetary union needs to go hand-in-hand with fiscal union (hence the strong political integration of the UK) so I really don't think joining the Euro is on the cards for Scotland and so, re-joining the EU is also off the cards. After all, EU rules state that to join the EU, you need to now join the Euro. This is too much even for Scotland. There are an awful lot of people in Scotland that are conservative, 40% of the population voted to leave.

 

9 hours ago, Quinnbeast said:

 

Yes. Now more than ever.

Perhaps, but nothing is going to happen for a while, Scotland will take ages to exit the UK and then will take ages to join the EU. Prolonging this period of uncertainty is only a bad thing for the people of Scotland and the UK. In this position, we need 'bergfrieden' nore than disunity. We need everyone to club together to negotiate the best exit from the EU possible, accepting for now the royal fuck up that's happened and working upon that to produce the best result. Otherwise, it's just going to ne a nightmare. At the moment, in my opinion, Nicola Sturgeon is acting solely in self-interest because she know that by de-stabilising the UK, she will achieve independence. The best interest of Scotland at the moment is to remain in the UK for the next few years then to re-try exiting in a few years when everything has settled down. Also, remember that the prostpect of a second referrendum pissed loads of people off, people from the SNP have been heckled many times for wanting a second referendum and not respecting the will of the people. I don't really thing that that feeling has gone away but only time will tell. You've also got the fact that the SNP is useless at governing, from what I hear at the moment, there is an awful lot of anger at Scottish government's "Children and Young People bill" amongst other laws which have been passed despite them being bad laws. Yes, this is due to the fact that there is no second chamber and the SNP have a majority but it does beg the quesion of whether Scotland could govern itself, Labour is useless and the Conservatives are the Conservatives (although who doesn't like a bit of Ruth Davidson, eh?). There is no hope imo. At least wait a while for the referendum, wait for everything to settle down.

[Sammael]

On 6/23/2016 at 11:36 PM, Moress said:

The same thing was said about Irish, Polish and German immigrants to New York in the late 1800s. African Americans in the 1900s and countless other groups throughout history. People are afraid when a new culture is mixed with their own. Some will demonize it and sometimes to gets so out of hand that genocides result.

The US and Europe both had roles in the destabilization of the middle east for decades. Now we have to deal with the issues it has spurred. What we cannot do is throw a tantrum any time our actions bite us in the ass and stop talking to our allies like 10 year olds. 

The effects of Brexit are already being felt and anyone who thought it was a good idea will have to face the harsh reality that threy have successfully destabilized the entire common market for the sake of their bigotry, ignorance and general disinterest in doing what's right over what will make them feel good.

 

 

There was not a large welfare state in the 1800s and early 1900s though, when people came, they survived on their own or.. well, they fell off.

 

 

This does not work well today, people going to Oxbridge sipping their tea are less affected by low skilled labor flooding the markets and bidding down wages, but less educated/intelligent members of society are not so lucky.  

[Misanthrope]

14 hours ago, Trik'Stari said:

Mostly, the left is angry because they're realizing not everyone shares their globalist dreams. Some people, it turns out, would like to have their country be unique, instead of being the lefist ideal of everywhere being exactly the same smattering of different cultures combined into one.

 

At least, that's how I see it.

That is one of the greatest ironies I've seen in a while. We got the same SJWs that constantly repeat Marxist rhetoric and flat out quote lines out of the Communist motherfucking manifesto yet this very same people are for the rights of the very top of the motherfucking 1% of European Bankers that actually own the fucking world....

 

Thinking about that is giving me brain cancer: Marx himself needs to be necro'ed back into life so he can kick their fucking asses.

[Trik'Stari]

1 hour ago, Misanthrope said:

That is one of the greatest ironies I've seen in a while. We got the same SJWs that constantly repeat Marxist rhetoric and flat out quote lines out of the Communist motherfucking manifesto yet this very same people are for the rights of the very top of the motherfucking 1% of European Bankers that actually own the fucking world....

 

Thinking about that is giving me brain cancer: Marx himself needs to be necro'ed back into life so he can kick their fucking asses.

I'd prefer that we just embrace real capitalism, with a real free market economy where companies are allowed to fail, with strong consumer protection laws.

 

I'd also prefer a real democracy to this "representative" crap we have now, but apparently that won't work because "people are too stupid"?

 

Ugh, fuck thinking about this, I'm gonna go make a smoked beer can chicken.

[Mug]

1 hour ago, Trik'Stari said:

I'd prefer that we just embrace real capitalism, with a real free market economy where companies are allowed to fail, with strong consumer protection laws.

Well, the EU is a free-market capitalist body, advocating "proper capitalism".

I'll give you an example, the British steel industry makes no money. The British government wants to nationalise it to protect jobs. However, the EU would block this move because there are successful steel industries in other countries and nationalising British steel would harm the market within the EU.

This is the trouble, does free-market capitalism actually benefit the UK? Does it benefit anywhere really? Like in the west, our jobs are constantly being undecut and outsourced. In Poland for example, which is part of the European market, workers can get paid as low as £1.50/hour and since Polish companies have the right to trade on equal grounds with Western Europe as Western European business, all that happens is that Western European businesses get undercut. Meanwhile, countries like Romania are experiencing unprecedented economic growth. This is the real anger from European countries, where did our economies go?

[Quinnbeast]

10 hours ago, Mug said:

I suppose so, I really do understand this argument. I voted to stay and I obviously therefore dislike the fact that the UK voted to leave. However, xenophobia wasn't the only reason to vote leave (I went down to Hertfordshire to help my Grandfather with some  gardening (who is 95) and discussed this with him and he said he voted leave because he felt like it was undermining British democracy) so whilst I think that xenophobia was played on, it wasn't the only thing that influenced people. Some people voted leave for different reasons. I don't honestly think that the UK is any more xenophobic than any other country. Look at Germany, a beacon for pro-europeanism but yet its government's approval has tanked due to refugees. In reality, every country is that kind of country. Society has to move as slow as the slowest person and imo, our society is too progressive for some people in this country.

 

I suppose that's true but remember, more people voted to remain in the UK than voted to remain in the EU in Scotland. But I think that money is a real issue for the people of Scotland, one of the reasons that it voted to stay was the pound. The Euro is a failed project. We all know that monetary union needs to go hand-in-hand with fiscal union (hence the strong political integration of the UK) so I really don't think joining the Euro is on the cards for Scotland and so, re-joining the EU is also off the cards. After all, EU rules state that to join the EU, you need to now join the Euro. This is too much even for Scotland. There are an awful lot of people in Scotland that are conservative, 40% of the population voted to leave.

 

Perhaps, but nothing is going to happen for a while, Scotland will take ages to exit the UK and then will take ages to join the EU. Prolonging this period of uncertainty is only a bad thing for the people of Scotland and the UK. In this position, we need 'bergfrieden' nore than disunity. We need everyone to club together to negotiate the best exit from the EU possible, accepting for now the royal fuck up that's happened and working upon that to produce the best result. Otherwise, it's just going to ne a nightmare. At the moment, in my opinion, Nicola Sturgeon is acting solely in self-interest because she know that by de-stabilising the UK, she will achieve independence. The best interest of Scotland at the moment is to remain in the UK for the next few years then to re-try exiting in a few years when everything has settled down. Also, remember that the prostpect of a second referrendum pissed loads of people off, people from the SNP have been heckled many times for wanting a second referendum and not respecting the will of the people. I don't really thing that that feeling has gone away but only time will tell. You've also got the fact that the SNP is useless at governing, from what I hear at the moment, there is an awful lot of anger at Scottish government's "Children and Young People bill" amongst other laws which have been passed despite them being bad laws. Yes, this is due to the fact that there is no second chamber and the SNP have a majority but it does beg the quesion of whether Scotland could govern itself, Labour is useless and the Conservatives are the Conservatives (although who doesn't like a bit of Ruth Davidson, eh?). There is no hope imo. At least wait a while for the referendum, wait for everything to settle down.

 

*sigh*

I honestly wasn't going to bother replying your initial questions, because I didn't really want to engage in political theory crafting 101 and your skewed 

assumptions on Scotland, that won't lead to either of us agreeing on much of anything.

 

On the subject of voting numbers: you're basically just cherry-picking the figures that suit your purpose. Raw slivers of data alone are meaningless without useful context. It's just as easy for me to say that a higher percentage voted to stay within the EU (62%) vs the 55% that voted to remain in the UK. A higher turnout at the Indyref was an absolute given and had a bigger voting base. Ultimately, a higher proportion of the voting electorate decided to stay in the EU and that's the only thing that can be fairly measured against previous voting tendencies. Turnout will always fluctuate, and we can't make assumptions about people who didn't (or couldn't) vote this time i.e. EU citizens or 16 & 17 year-olds.

 

Regarding the Euro; the UK doesn't use the Euro. Why would Scotland do so by default? That's partly a rhetorical question, and given the an indy ref has not been called and is not guaranteed, I won't waste time debating currency. But still, I don't mean to sound like I'm being a dick, it's just that having people tell me things about my country on the internet generally doesn't amount to much useful, reasoned content (in my experience). If England was voting for a fully devolved parliament, it wouldn't occur to me to tell people in England what would and wouldn't be good for them. After all, why would anyone care what I think? We are all in new territory here and none of us can make promises on something that is completely unprecedented. Let's face it, the Leave campaign and the UK Government is an utter shambles just now; it's pretty clear that Leave had absolutely no plans in place what-so-ever and perhaps never even expected to win. And I mean that literally, IDS confirms that there was no Leave plan, and yet for years to come, people will try and say that SNP independence White Paper wasn't robust enough. FUCKING LOLZ! It's looking like this was purely a Tory spat that raged out of control and left the UK in tatters and an international joke - and yet you feel the need to tell me your perceptions on the SNP and the First Minister? Sorry chief, but you're talking to the wrong person about the wrong issues. And you're obviously reading the wrong sources if you're looking for a valid analysis of the SNPs ability to govern.

 

Your need to use phrases such as "there in no hope" and the "FACT" that the SNP are "useless at governing"? I don't even know where to start. Do you understand how insulting that kind of bullshit is or just how little you understand about a country you're supposed to be in financial/political union with? What's really evident is just how much spin the media has been thrown at you to make you think the SNP are failing, and yet, have no knowledge of how much they have achieved and are praised by the people that live here and are directly affected. They're not perfect by any stretch and there are things I continue to criticise them for, and yet, their success in both local and general elections speaks volumes. Once again, these types of conversations boil down to Big English Brother is telling it's little pet Scotland that it can't go outside and play. I've spent my adult life listening to the same rhetoric, being reminded that we are less than 10% of the population, that we can't look after ourselves, and that we should be grateful for our lot. Perhaps if you understood what it's like to be a country of 5 million that is consistently treated as the bit North of Northern England and massive democratic deficit we have endured at times, your opinion would change. I don't expect you to understand or to convince you of anything; nor do I need to. Seriously mate, look at the fucking state of England just now. At least we have the luxury of a FM who actually has a contingency plan and is willing to consider all options and do as much firefighting as is possible. None of this is her fault, and yet you think it's fair to criticise her response. Meanwhile - at best - most of the UK leadership is sitting on their hands wondering who to blame. At worst, it's a room full of chimpanzees slinging their own shit at each other. Despite my lengthy reply, I don't want or need to convince you of anything. The proof is in the pudding. It's not the place for England to decide what is and isn't too much for Scotland. So don't worry about it: Scotland has broader shoulders than you have been lead to believe.

 

Anyway, thanks for the chat. I'm on holiday as of this week, heading for (believe or or not) the north of England! 

[Okjoek]

I do have a little Welsh in my ancestry, but I'm predominately Polish and I consider myself Polish. I like how Poland (like UK) has been able to escape the migrant storm unscathed so far. What I don't like is the antagonizing of Russia/former USSR. I understand there's a bitter history, but I would've hoped after the cold war we could have maintained some sort of relationship instead of going right back to demonizing them and constantly begging USA for troops. I'm not very fond of the rising of nationalism and countries isolating themselves. I feel like it's a repeat of the deterioration of the league of nations that led to WW2.

 

I hope if UK does completely leave because of their arrogance that Scottland/ others go the same path and get their independence.