Britain's EU Referendum

[Mug]

11 hours ago, laminutederire said:

Please UK leave Europe

Yes, it's time to go, it's time to become a part of north America instead.

[Mug]

7 hours ago, Bhav said:

You honestly have no clue what your blabbering about

Speak for yourself mate

5 hours ago, Bhav said:

What actually happened that led to this referendum becoming a thing and why so many people wanted out of the EU:

 

Immigrants from middle east found guilty of terrorist plots / actions.

 

UK law trials judge them to be deported.

 

The criminals appeal to the EU human rights courts.

 

The EU over rides UK law and tells us that the criminal immigrants must stay and be imprisoned in the UK because deporting them is a violation of their human rights.

 

David Cameron comes along with a whole campaign of 'no human rights for criminals / terrorists'.

 

Most UK citizens agree. Only solution to the bullshit EU courts over ruling us is to leave the EU.

 

Now what exactly is too hard to understand about this? We dont want to be governed by fucking useless Brussels. 

• ECHR is a separate entity to the EU (besides, we were one of the creators of the ECHR so leaving it would be a great shame. In fact, it was based on British law)
• Most UK citizens want to stay in the EU, read the polls, there's up to a 10% lead for "remain"

Surprise surprise, I'm voting stay but I find that both sides give compelling arguments. I was shocked when I read Michael Gove's argument and to be agreeing with him, it's a similar story with Boris.

I'm also shocked how little I've been hearing from Jeramy Corbyn on this, I think that perhaps he's more eurosceptic than perhaps he would like to make out.

[Bhav]

9 hours ago, laminutederire said:

Undeletable quote

2 hours ago, Mug said:

Speak for yourself mate

• ECHR is a separate entity to the EU (besides, we were one of the creators of the ECHR so leaving it would be a great shame. In fact, it was based on British law)
• Most UK citizens want to stay in the EU, read the polls, there's up to a 10% lead for "remain"

Surprise surprise, I'm voting stay but I find that both sides give compelling arguments. I was shocked when I read Michael Gove's argument and to be agreeing with him, it's a similar story with Boris.

I'm also shocked how little I've been hearing from Jeramy Corbyn on this, I think that perhaps he's more eurosceptic than perhaps he would like to make out.

 

I never stated which there was a lead for, and I know what I am talking about, everything I have said is correct.

 

I never doubted that the vote would go in favor to remain, because most people who vote are idiots who have little idea about the reality of such situations. 

 

There is no actual benefit for the UK to either be in or not be in the EU, just like it hasn't affected Norway at all or stopped them from becoming the worlds most desirable country to live in. The only thing the EU does is drain our economy and prevents full border control based on EU laws allowing open migration between its member states. I agree fully with everything Nigel Farage has said over the last several years for wanting to leave, the reasons for people who want to do so aren't exactly current nor can they be condensed into a 1500 word essay.

 

And there hasn't even been any mention of how the EU isn't a democratic practice. In other countries, their EU representatives were never voted in, and neither has there ever been a vote previously for the UK public to decide on whether or not to say.

 

Also a 10% lead in votes is hardly a landslide lead, but that's the flaw with democracy, people think that if 51% of people vote in favour of something that's a significant lead.

[Quinnbeast]

18 hours ago, Bhav said:

BTW theres actually a reason why I hate EU migration to the UK. We have so little housing space that in recent years landlords were forced to evict disabled tenants to make space for Romanians and refugees.

 

Its funny that Norway isnt an EU member and has severely strict immigration laws compared to the UK, but no one cares about that, lets just blame the evil UK for wanting to 'leave Europe' and have tighter controls on its own borders.

 

And once again, the entirety of EU membership gets boiled down to one, single-minded argument: immigration.  I guess you're just doing what a right-wing government wants you to do, but it's sad to see the prevalence of such an empty argument. The housing shortage was primarily caused by a Tory government (beginning with Thatcher) who have systematically sold off social housing and failed to construct anything to replace it. Blaming a lack of housing on the people who require housing is a pointless deflection of where the UK is failing it's citizens. Border control has little to do with immigration laws, and pulling Norway out of a hat as some sort of defense of your own opinion amounts to absolutely zero. Who said anything about wanting to model themselves on Norway, or anywhere else?

 

Also, by your logic, removing EU immigrants from the UK should by extension force all EU countries to send their own UK immigrants back here; Spain alone has around 400k British born workers/citizens adding to a total of 1.2 million across the EU. Should some or all of them be sent back?

 

The arguments about not enough room and too much strain on resources is empty rhetoric from a government who are doing a remarkable job of placing 100% of the blame for their own failings on people with little money or power of their own. It may be the 21st century, but collectively, we're incredibly slow to learn.

[Citadelen]

Oh my, so much bitter bullshit in this thread.

Firstly, it is true that there aren't enough houses in this country. You don't fix that by deporting or not letting people in, you fix it by building more houses. Secondly, the economic repercussions of leaving, both for us and the rest of Europe, are not justifiable for leaving.

Secondly, we created the clusterfuck that is the middle east, we have a moral obligation to help those stuck there. Also, a successful Brexit, would spearhead Boris Johnsons leadership bid for the Conservatives, if he becomes leader then this country will go to shit. He's absolutely ridiculous, like this thread.

[Mug]

8 hours ago, Bhav said:

And there hasn't even been any mention of how the EU isn't a democratic practice

imo the EU is democratic, the upper house is elected by proportional representation directly and the European council is appointed by each country's democratically elected government. Yes, we should make it more democratic but this level of democracy is currently adequate.

[Duck-dono]

 

[maulemall]

4 hours ago, Citadelen said:

 

Secondly, we created the clusterfuck that is the middle east, we have a moral obligation to help those stuck there. Also, a successful Brexit, would spearhead Boris Johnsons leadership bid for the Conservatives, if he becomes leader then this country will go to shit. He's absolutely ridiculous, like this thread.

Oh yea because it was all sunshine and roses for 2000 years before...

I have no horse in the race but I personally hope whatever happens that England thrives and prospers.

[Mug]

4 hours ago, Citadelen said:

Also, a successful Brexit, would spearhead Boris Johnsons leadership bid for the Conservatives, if he becomes leader then this country will go to shit. He's absolutely ridiculous, like this thread.

Just out of interest then, who would you rather, Jeramy Corbyn or Boris if the election was between the two of them?

[DXMember]

I believe my opinion on the matter is best described by a Venn diagram:

[Kobathor]

21 hours ago, Bhav said:

What actually happened that led to this referendum becoming a thing and why so many people wanted out of the EU:

Immigrants from middle east found guilty of terrorist plots / actions.

UK law trials judge them to be deported.

The criminals appeal to the EU human rights courts.

The EU over rides UK law and tells us that the criminal immigrants must stay and be imprisoned in the UK because deporting them is a violation of their human rights.

David Cameron comes along with a whole campaign of 'no human rights for criminals / terrorists'.

Most UK citizens agree. Only solution to the bullshit EU courts over ruling us is to leave the EU.

Now what exactly is too hard to understand about this? We dont want to be governed by fucking useless Brussels. 

This happens all the time in the EU and the UK. The UK has fought many EU laws. In a video I watched I heard they've gone to fight over 130 times, and they're lost all of those times. The UK has no control over lots of things. The EU is a messed up system that needs to be punished. The EU has too much control over their countries, and the UK doesn't like that. If I lived in Britain, I'd vote leave.

[Kobathor]

24 minutes ago, DXMember said:

I believe my opinion on the matter is best described by a Venn diagram:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

 

Move the "my influence" circle far, far away from your interests, and you've got the UK vs the EU.

[Citadelen]

1 hour ago, maulemall said:

-snip-

No, it wasn't, but the countries were stable. Invading Iraq under the false pretense of WoMD was a terrible idea. More so, not providing the new governments with proper support. Thus giving way to the rise ISIL.

1 hour ago, Mug said:

Just out of interest then, who would you rather, Jeramy Corbyn or Boris if the election was between the two of them?

Easily Jeremy, his election to leader of Labour turned me from the Green party over to Labour.

[maulemall]

10 minutes ago, Citadelen said:

No, it wasn't, but the countries were stable. Invading Iraq under the false pretense of WoMD was a terrible idea. More so, not providing the new governments with proper support. Thus giving way to the rise ISIL.

Easily Jeremy, his election to leader of Labour turned me from the Green party over to Labour.

All of the problems in the middle east are problems they created.

My Grandmother came to the US from Lebanon when she was 13.

Any and all problems today were there then. 

If people need to blame themselves for others crap that's fine but it isn't the truth.

(WMD's were used by Iraq a decade before the invasion and they were threatening the use throughout the conflict. So I don't really care about that and Patreas had Iraq stabilized before barak got his peace prize.)

 

[Citadelen]

11 minutes ago, maulemall said:

-snip-

Yeah sure millions have always died and feld Syria and Iraq. In the end my belief is that the area should never have been decolonised, this isn't a PC attitude to have, but the region isn't able to remain stable with constant intervention then sudden desertion by western powers. The governments installed were left to it, which is exactly what shouldn't have happend.

[maulemall]

1 minute ago, Citadelen said:

Yeah sure millions have always died and feld Syria and Iraq. In the end my belief is that the area should never have been decolonised, this isn't a PC attitude to have, but the region isn't able to remain stable with constant intervention then sudden desertion by western powers. The governments installed were left to it, which is exactly what shouldn't have happend.

That is 100% correct

[handymanshandle]

As an American I hope Brexit fails and the UK stays in the EU. 

[handymanshandle]

Inb4 Brexit success causes economic destabilisation in the EU leading to a third world war. Good going UK.

[maulemall]

2 minutes ago, wcreek said:

Inb4 Brexit success causes economic destabilisation in the EU leading to a third world war. Good going UK.

because England wants to self rule?

All the crap going on in the world and England not wanting to hang into a failed euro experiment is going to cause WW3..

BWAAAAHAAAAHAAAA

Their Monetary systems aren't even the Same.

[Mug]

2 hours ago, Kobathor said:

This happens all the time in the EU and the UK. The UK has fought many EU laws. In a video I watched I heard they've gone to fight over 130 times, and they're lost all of those times. The UK has no control over lots of things. The EU is a messed up system that needs to be punished. The EU has too much control over their countries, and the UK doesn't like that.

The fundamental thing is that we all recognise that the EU has its issues, but we either think that  we can change it or give up and leave (by the way we oppose a small minority of the directives and mandates that the EU passes, Britain is hardly ever overrued).

 

I'm a wierd one really, I support the UK handing over more and more sovereignty to the EU I think we should join the Euro, join Schengen and integrate fully into the bloc. On failing to do this, we should leave. I don't think there's any point in compromise with the left and right, we need to be in or out. If we stay in, we can help push things our way, voting for treaty change etc. So yes, the EU in its current state is really unsustainable but that means that we should attempt to reform it rather than walk away. What I really want to see is an EU with one constitution, one that we can all agree will work in the people's benefit.

[handymanshandle]

1 hour ago, maulemall said:

because England wants to self rule?

All the crap going on in the world and England not wanting to hang into a failed euro experiment is going to cause WW3..

BWAAAAHAAAAHAAAA

Their Monetary systems aren't even the Same.

Not that, many European countries rely on the Euro having some kind of value. By the UK leaving it sort of destabilizes that. 

Of course their monetary systems aren't the same. You could sort of tell that it was a joke, which is good. But it was purely meant as a joke. I don't think it's likely it would cause too many issues with other European countries. 

I mean the EU has its pros and cons. I think its pros outweigh its cons. Being able to travel from Lyon to Munich or vice versa with out needing a passport and being able to use the same currency is pretty cool. While it does mean that the EU is able to override the laws of other nations and that's not particularly fair. It still is a nice thing to have and sure Germany did pay the bulk of helping Greece get out of their economic crisis. Those are small downfalls imo. 

 

Now where does the UK benefit from the EU? Well existentially it does. Is the British Isles part of Europe? If so then they should remain a part of the EU. If you think they're not then I suppose there isn't much point into the UK being part of the EU. Personally I think the British Isles are part of Europe and therefore should be part of the EU. 
 

Sort of tempted to bring in Godwin's law and how nationalism tends to lead be a horrid thing But Patriotism=/=Nationalism but it's more than just Nationalism that is the problem. We see this going on with the Front Nationale in France. Though François Hollande could've responded better to Charlie Hebdo and the 2015 Paris Attacks.  

Regardless I'm digressing. 

 

I don't think Brexit should pass for a variety of reasons, which aren't necessarily related to my digression above.  

I think these articles best describes the potential to cause more harm than good if the UK leaves the EU.

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21693584-leaving-eu-would-hurt-britainand-would-also-deal-terrible-blow-west-real-danger

http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21693568-david-cameron-will-struggle-win-referendum-britains-eu-membership-if-he-loses

 

[handymanshandle]

1 hour ago, Mug said:

The fundamental thing is that we all recognise that the EU has its issues, but we either think that  we can change it or give up and leave (by the way we oppose a small minority of the directives and mandates that the EU passes, Britain is hardly ever overrued).

 

I'm a wierd one really, I support the UK handing over more and more sovereignty to the EU I think we should join the Euro, join Schengen and integrate fully into the bloc. On failing to do this, we should leave. I don't think there's any point in compromise with the left and right, we need to be in or out. If we stay in, we can help push things our way, voting for treaty change etc. So yes, the EU in its current state is really unsustainable but that means that we should attempt to reform it rather than walk away. What I really want to see is an EU with one constitution, one that we can all agree will work in the people's benefit.

Well it's fine if you guys keep your £ and and stay out of the Schengen but I mean at the bare minimums just stay part of the EU just to prevent a global economic crisis.

 

But yes the EU does have it's problems, I admit that too. Even as one of the few people especially few Americans that think that the EU isn't horrible. While it could be better. So could our "democratic republic" so I mean it's sort of arrogant of Americans to pretend that the EU is a terrible system and some how our system is the best system. When we have many flaws of our own. 

 

Leaving the EU won't fix its issues. It might only cause more issues.

[Quinnbeast]

5 hours ago, maulemall said:

All of the problems in the middle east are problems they created.

My Grandmother came to the US from Lebanon when she was 13.

Any and all problems today were there then. 

If people need to blame themselves for others crap that's fine but it isn't the truth.

 

Didn't mean to drag this off-topic, but...

 

It's certainly admirable for someone of Lebanese heritage not to lay any blame on colonial forces, but the capacity of the British Empire to fuck around with other countries and regions is very well documented. The conflicts that exist today are based almost entirely on the arbitrary divisions created across large chunks of the Middle East during WW1, which had no regard for religious or ethnic (or even geographic) boundaries. It's hard to imagine that the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire by European occupation, and a series of conflicting agreements made by Britain (plus general mismanagement in the area) had otherwise no impact on the newly formed countries. The current state of the Middle East really was a western creation to a lesser or greater degree - and if recent 'foreign policy' is anything to go by - continues to be so.

 

http://lostislamichistory.com/how-the-british-divided-up-the-arab-world/

[Castdeath97]

On 2 June 2016 at 6:20 PM, Bhav said:

Refugees get a free house, television and sky subscription.

 

And wheres my free house? Oh right, I cant have one because unfortunately I was born in the UK instead of seeking refuge there.

 

 

I'm a student from abroad and I don't get sky even with the massive amounts of money I pay for the dorm, do you have a source for this? Who pays the TV license?

[maulemall]

8 minutes ago, Quinnbeast said:

 

Didn't mean to drag this off-topic, but...

 

It's certainly admirable for someone of Lebanese heritage not to lay any blame on colonial forces, but the capacity of the British Empire to fuck around with other countries and regions is very well documented. The conflicts that exist today are based almost entirely on the arbitrary divisions created across large chunks of the Middle East during WW1, which had no regard for religious or ethnic (or even geographic) boundaries. It's hard to imagine that the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire by European occupation, and a series of conflicting agreements made by Britain (plus general mismanagement in the area) had otherwise no impact on the newly formed countries. The current state of the Middle East really was a western creation to a lesser or greater degree - and if recent 'foreign policy' is anything to go by - continues to be so.

 

http://lostislamichistory.com/how-the-british-divided-up-the-arab-world/

The problems in the middle east are of and only of Muslim extremism.

They got whatever they wanted and pissed it away and now their jihad and (Thanks to the royal Saudi family for funding it) is going to keep them in poverty for centuries to come.

The past doesn't mean shit. What happened yesterday or a thousand years ago doesn't mean shit.

if they are to willfully ignorant to see that then they ask for their own extinction.