[updated] Epic boss accuses MicroSoft of trying to "monopolise game development on PC"

[typographie]

2 hours ago, Kierax said:

The way I see it Steam used to be the diamond in the rough, but let us all be honest, their customer service has dropped.  If moving more of their games to their own stores, equals competition towards all the other gaming clients, then it's a good thing.  

 

It's been too stagnant for way too long.

It will only mean more competition if they actually implement features and services that are better than what the others offer. For example, Uplay offers little or nothing that other platforms don't already offer. It's a hoop you have to jump through to play your games, but as far as competition goes it's completely inert. Their prices aren't better, their service isn't more reliable, and while I've never heard specifics about their customer service that alone suggests it's probably middling at best.

 

If Microsoft goes this route, the only thing that might make it competitive with the other platforms are exclusive games. But that's where Microsoft is weakest as a publisher. EA and Ubisoft have huge, diverse portfolios of very popular games, and most gamers will eventually need to use Origin or Uplay for something. I don't think Microsoft has exclusive rights to a large enough library of must-have titles to push lots of PC gamers into their store, and I don't see many third-parties locking their games down in such a way unless it's to their own store.

[MEC-777]

1 hour ago, zMeul said:

just a few months ago I tried to install the STEAM client on Ubuntu x64 - ran into dependencies problems and some other stuff related to the MESA / nVidia's video drivers;I couldn't even get back to the Unity desktop

scoured the internet and Ubuntu forums for a fix, couldn't find anything short of performing a reinstall and doing things in a particular order - I gave up; wiped the drive and installed W10 Insider

The Unity UI is part of the problem and I don't recommend that UI to anyone. I too have run into issues with installing steam on Ubuntu with Unity. Steam needs proper drivers to work as well but there's some other issue with Unity dependencies for some reason. Also, it's better to be running Nvidia proprietary drivers, not the MESA/open source drivers.

 

Ubuntu with Gnome UI/desktop is much more stable and complete/workable (if that makes sense). Just installed Ubuntu Gnome 15.10 on one of my latest PC build projects and everything installed without a single problem. After the OS installation, I first installed the latest Nvidia proprietary drivers from the mamarley repositories, which went through without a hitch, then installed steam through the terminal and it runs like a charm. (apt-get install steam)

 

Some distros and UI's work better and are easier to deal with than others. I don't know what's going on with Ubuntu + Unity in the last couple years, but it's not that great, IMO. But I can pretty much guaranty that if you used Gnome instead of Unity, you wouldn't have had this problem. Gnome is a much better/nicer UI as well, IMO - completely different than Unity. 

 

With gaming on Linux, yes, there is *some* knowledge needed for primary setup, in terms of installing the latest drivers and a few other things. But it is FAR from how difficult it used to be not very long ago. Literally a handful of commands in the terminal and you're ready to go (which, BTW, this process is much faster than going to each website and individually downloading the drivers/programs, then running the .exe's). Is it for everyone? No. Is it "horrible"? Not at all. It's just different. That is an important key distinction to make.

 

It's no different than teaching someone or learning yourself, how to do something on windows that you've never done before. 

[FakezZ]

4 hours ago, Warcony said:

People also crap on Microsoft every day on this forum and blow any small piece of "news" way out of proportion. People are still up in arms about Windows 10 "spying on them" while they walk around with an Android phone in their pocket that is literally tracking every step they take throughout the day. To be clear, I am not saying MS is better than Google, I am just trying to point out that what they are doing is no worse than what all other companies are offering.

 

Bottom line: if you don't like what Microsoft is doing then don't use their products and/or services. At this point in time there are a lot of other options to fulfill your needs.

Well in the case of Windows spying vs Google with android, Microsoft is in the wrong here. Windows is (officially at least) a $100 minimum OS. If they spy you on top of that, then that is a dick move. On the other hand, since Android is open-source, it is Google services that actually do the "spying", so unless you are ok with using something else, you will have to deal with it, no matter which platform you're on. Even if that was not the case, though, it is still something you pay for and they are also mining your data vs something that is free. Remember, no company is a charity. If the product is free, then you become the product most of the time.

[NateGSR117]

This is a concern but I don't see this being pull off anytime soon. Plus if MS was really doing it, it wouldn't take long for people to call them out on it and have a complete shit storm on their hands.

[zMeul]

11 minutes ago, MEC-777 said:

The Unity UI is part of the problem and I don't recommend that UI to anyone. I too have run into issues with installing steam on Ubuntu with Unity. Steam needs proper drivers to work as well but there's some other issue with Unity dependencies for some reason. Also, it's better to be running Nvidia proprietary drivers, not the MESA/open source drivers.

that's the part of the problem as I understood it, was to install nVidia's driver before installing STEAM

that creates some changes STEAM doesn't like

[MEC-777]

8 minutes ago, zMeul said:

that's the part of the problem as I understood it, was to install nVidia's driver before installing STEAM

that creates some changes STEAM doesn't like

The missing dependency issue with trying to install/run steam in Unity has been a known, on-going issue for some time now. I'm surprised it still is, TBH. 

 

Our old laptop is running with Unity and Steam won't run on that either for the same reason, eventhough the drivers are correct. It could also be related to the age of the drivers being used - which is what I believe the issue is with our laptop. I actually have been meaning to wipe it and reinstall with Gnome instead and see if it will work then. If I ever get around to it and it does work, I'll let you know.  

[zMeul]

1 minute ago, MEC-777 said:

The missing dependency issue with trying to install/run steam in Unity has been a known, on-going issue for some time now. I'm surprised it still is, TBH. 

 

Our old laptop is running with Unity and Steam won't run on that either for the same reason, eventhough the drivers are correct. It could also be related to the age of the drivers being used - which is what I believe the issue is with our laptop. I actually have been meaning to wipe it and reinstall with Gnome instead and see if it will work then. If I ever get around to it and it does work, I'll let you know.  

I remember trying Mint Cinnamon and ended up facing other issues, forgot exactly what

[MEC-777]

11 minutes ago, zMeul said:

I remember trying Mint Cinnamon and ended up facing other issues, forgot exactly what

As I seem to recall, plenty of people face plenty of issues on windows as well...  

[shermantanker]

27 minutes ago, MEC-777 said:

As I seem to recall, plenty of people face plenty of issues on windows as well...  

Year, but nooooooo where near the level of issues with linux.

[MEC-777]

9 minutes ago, shermantanker said:

Year, but nooooooo where near the level of issues with linux.

Some people would beg to differ. In many cases, it's simply due to lack of knowledge. Like anything different or new you try in life, you run into user-issues until you learn how to use/deal with it. You need to add context when you say "Linux has issues" because it's not that simple and you make it out to be something FAR worse than it actually is. This is the kind of parroted misinformation that is constantly spread all the time which scares people away from it. 

 

When was the last time you installed and used Linux on a daily basis?  

[Lazmarr]

9 hours ago, zMeul said:

 

apps trough MS' Store will run in borderless window, with V-Sync always on and capped at 60FPS

Apps from the windows store run in fullscreen just like any normal desktop, not borderless windowed mode.

Normal fullscreen gives the application that is running higher priority and more resources. This is the same thing windows store 'apps' do when they are running in 'fullscreen'.
 

[shermantanker]

29 minutes ago, MEC-777 said:

Some people would beg to differ. In many cases, it's simply due to lack of knowledge. Like anything different or new you try in life, you run into user-issues until you learn how to use/deal with it. You need to add context when you say "Linux has issues" because it's not that simple and you make it out to be something FAR worse than it actually is. This is the kind of parroted misinformation that is constantly spread all the time which scares people away from it. 

 

When was the last time you installed and used Linux on a daily basis?  

I was meaning issues getting it set up and fully configured. Last time was about 2 years ago to goof off with it, but that didn't last long. I am an architecture student, and none of my day to day software is even remotely available for Linux.

 

EDIT: My bad, I was think the post I original quoted was only talking about installation issues. I'm not trying to bag on Linux, and it has its place in the pie for those that need it.

[GoodBytes]

Very well. We will wait for BUILD which is soon. I doubt they'll cover all the details, but we should see the idea/direction they have planned, and possibly thought process.

 

Ultimately I think the Universal App platform was design for Windows phone, tablet, HoloLens, and XBox One, which is all closed system, and you want full sandboxing, and it was put on PC for allowing users to use their mobile apps or simple games if that is what they like, on PC, and just now they decided to use the Store to target PC gaming, and sadly, currently, it is far from ready. Maybe Microsoft was hopping for feedback to know what to focus more on, and hence they decided to release different genre games to get gamers from different categories feedback (racing, action, adventure, etc.)

 

Well, we can't say, Microsoft isn't getting feedback. I suggest to push on the user feedback app, Steamworks system for games.

[shermantanker]

1 minute ago, GoodBytes said:

Very well. We will wait for BUILD which is soon. I doubt they'll cover all the details, but we should see the idea/direction they have planned, and possibly thought process.

 

Ultimately I think the Universal App platform was design for Windows phone, tablet, HoloLens, and XBox One, which is all closed system, and you want full sandboxing, and it was put on PC for allowing users to use their mobile apps or simple games if that is what they like, on PC, and just now they decided to use the Store to target PC gaming, and sadly, currently, it is far from ready. Maybe Microsoft was hopping for feedback to know what to focus more on, and hence they decided to release different genre games to get gamers from different categories feedback (racing, action, adventure, etc.)

 

Well, we can't say, Microsoft isn't getting feedback. I suggest to push on the user feedback app, Steamworks system for games.

Yeah I would like to see what they have to say at build.

[EChondo]

I guess I'll throw my 2 cents in and it isn't directly about Windows Store.

 

Microsoft, when it comes to gaming in general, does not know what to do, at all. They don't know what Xbox users want, they don't know what PC users want, and they will never know until we hurt their profits.

 

As an example, look at Kinect. Kinect is a great product for a vast amount of use cases, except gaming. However, Microsoft thought it was the best idea to take Kinect and force it on Xbox One users(by including it in the packaging) only to remove it from the packaging months later because no one was using it and people refused to buy it since it added cost to it. Microsoft even bought a developer and later turned them into a Kinect developer(RIP Rare). Kinect was NEVER a "gaming" product and Microsoft could not understand that for 5 whole years. But on the sideline for that 5 years there were tons of other industries wanting access to Kinect, whether it was robotics, medical, or just basic movement tracking. Even with the Xbox One version it took Microsoft a year(IIRC?) to bring out a PC version of the Kinect.

 

Now we're all familiar with GFWL, so I don't need nor want to go into that. But you can see my point.

 

Microsoft sucks when it comes to introducing and maintaining good ideas in the gaming space. They really need to turn this whole Windows Store situation around entirely and hopefully it doesn't take 5 years to kill it off after it's apparent they aren't going anywhere or end up dead after this decade when they tell us they're fixing it the whole time.

[LAwLz]

2 hours ago, dimitriianghelov said:

 Microsoft got to him

Wow... The responses he got from all the raging Microsoft fanboys really makes me sad. It's like watching a bunch of primitive cavemen trying to defend their tribe leader.

 

Quote

And the only reason UE is where it is, is because of Xbox, he should issue an apology note to MS for being foolish.

What a fucking tool.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, typographie said:

If Microsoft goes this route, the only thing that might make it competitive with the other platforms are exclusive games. But that's where Microsoft is weakest as a publisher. EA and Ubisoft have huge, diverse portfolios of very popular games, and most gamers will eventually need to use Origin or Uplay for something. I don't think Microsoft has exclusive rights to a large enough library of must-have titles to push lots of PC gamers into their store, and I don't see many third-parties locking their games down in such a way unless it's to their own store.

And on top of that, exclusives are terrible for us consumers. They are basically taking things we want hostage and going "you have to use our service or else we won't give this to you". Exclusives should be seen as a reason to boycott something, not follow them like a brainless sheep.

I totally agree with the first part of your post though. We customers don't get more choice if the new choice isn't competitive. Right now, there are absolutely 0 reasons why anyone would even think of buying a game from the Microsoft store if it was available somewhere else. if you buy from the store you end up getting an inferior product.

 

 

 

21 minutes ago, Lazmarr said:

Apps from the windows store run in fullscreen just like any normal desktop, not borderless windowed mode.

Normal fullscreen gives the application that is running higher priority and more resources. This is the same thing windows store 'apps' do when they are running in 'fullscreen'.

Not true. Apps from the Windows Store does not run in exclusive fullscreen mode. What they do is they run in their own engines, and then that gets passed along to Windows' compositing engine (this is how running in borderless fullscreen works, from now on referenced to as DWM). It is a requirement for any app in the store to go through that engine before the final image is sent to the monitor. That's because Microsoft want to be able to inject their overlays and other things (onscreen keyboard, notifications, etc) into the final image. Having it go through the DWM is a way to very easily standardize it. The problem is that the engine has a lot of drawbacks, and the security features of the UWP blocks a lot of things from being injected or read. So for example DWM currently does not understand FreeSync and G-Sync, so that becomes broken (works in some scenarios but not others) because it might work perfectly fine inside the game, but then it gets passed along to DWM which does not understand it. It is also the reason why VSync is forced to be on. Because DWM does not support running without VSync.

 

 

On top of the DWM being crap for games (which is understandable, it wasn't designed for it), the UWP has a lot of security features which puts some pretty extreme limitations on developers. For example Nvidia will no longer be able to create SLI profiles for games. The entire responsibility for fixing things like SLI support will now be on the developers, not Nvidia (because Nvidia won't be able to access the game). Another issue is that programs won't be able to inject the own visual changes to the final output. Want to have GeForce Experience overlay? Sorry, that program is blocked. Want FRAPs to see your FPS? Blocked. And so on.

 

It's just a very badly designed system for games.

[MEC-777]

1 hour ago, shermantanker said:

I was meaning issues getting it set up and fully configured. Last time was about 2 years ago to goof off with it, but that didn't last long. I am an architecture student, and none of my day to day software is even remotely available for Linux.

 

EDIT: My bad, I was think the post I original quoted was only talking about installation issues. I'm not trying to bag on Linux, and it has its place in the pie for those that need it.

No worries.  

 

FWIW, Linux has changed a lot in the last 2 years. I think now you would find it a lot easier to work with and setup. Now I can setup a fresh Linux install in minutes where as 2 years ago it took me MUCH longer. I also didn't know the majority of what I know now, which helps greatly. lol.

 

Some distros are easier to install/setup than others as well. 

[shermantanker]

9 minutes ago, MEC-777 said:

No worries.  

 

FWIW, Linux has changed a lot in the last 2 years. I think now you would find it a lot easier to work with and setup. Now I can setup a fresh Linux install in minutes where as 2 years ago it took me MUCH longer. I also didn't know the majority of what I know now, which helps greatly. lol.

 

Some distros are easier to install/setup than others as well. 

Yeah i'm always one to try new things, but autocad, revit, sketchup, adobe cc, ect... and all their plugins are not very linux friendly. And half of those don't even have OSX versions lol. I'm kinda stuck with windows for the moment.

[Lazmarr]

36 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Not true. Apps from the Windows Store does not run in exclusive fullscreen mode. What they do is they run in their own engines, and then that gets passed along to Windows' compositing engine (this is how running in borderless fullscreen works, from now on referenced to as DWM). It is a requirement for any app in the store to go through that engine before the final image is sent to the monitor. That's because Microsoft want to be able to inject their overlays and other things (onscreen keyboard, notifications, etc) into the final image. Having it go through the DWM is a way to very easily standardize it. The problem is that the engine has a lot of drawbacks, and the security features of the UWP blocks a lot of things from being injected or read. So for example DWM currently does not understand FreeSync and G-Sync, so that becomes broken (works in some scenarios but not others) because it might work perfectly fine inside the game, but then it gets passed along to DWM which does not understand it. It is also the reason why VSync is forced to be on. Because DWM does not support running without VSync.

First off I never stated they run in exclusive fullscreen. I stated it was the same as running them in exclusive fullscreen. I apologise if that was not clear. What I mean by the same is that the applications are given the same resources/priority as it would if it was a desktop program run in exclusive fullscreen.

I am not arguing the fact of V-sync as it is not something I much care about at present. And you are correct on the issues of Vsync.

There was infact an article I had read, but cannot for the life of me find it due to the now increased number of google results of this very same type of post, where it was shown that windows 10 apps are given the same priority and resources as those in exclusive fullscreen mode.

If I do find the article I will gladly post it.

[Delicieuxz]

9 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

Microsoft trying to monopolise PC gaming, lmao.

 

To get a monopoly you have to be in a strong position in the industry/market and MS are, well they're not even in a strong position in the console market and they prioritised that over PC gaming.

Or, you be in a position to lock out the competition. Microsoft owning the platform (which includes a digital store) that PC games are released on gives them that ability.

[Tieox]

Just now, Delicieuxz said:

Or you be in a position to lock out the competition. Microsoft owning the platform (which includes a digital store) that PC games are released on, gives them that ability.

Then the only winning move is not to play.

[Delicieuxz]

2 hours ago, EChondo said:

I guess I'll throw my 2 cents in and it isn't directly about Windows Store.

 

Microsoft, when it comes to gaming in general, does not know what to do, at all. They don't know what Xbox users want, they don't know what PC users want, and they will never know until we hurt their profits.

 

As an example, look at Kinect. Kinect is a great product for a vast amount of use cases, except gaming. However, Microsoft thought it was the best idea to take Kinect and force it on Xbox One users(by including it in the packaging) only to remove it from the packaging months later because no one was using it and people refused to buy it since it added cost to it. Microsoft even bought a developer and later turned them into a Kinect developer(RIP Rare). Kinect was NEVER a "gaming" product and Microsoft could not understand that for 5 whole years. But on the sideline for that 5 years there were tons of other industries wanting access to Kinect, whether it was robotics, medical, or just basic movement tracking. Even with the Xbox One version it took Microsoft a year(IIRC?) to bring out a PC version of the Kinect.

 

Now we're all familiar with GFWL, so I don't need nor want to go into that. But you can see my point.

 

Microsoft sucks when it comes to introducing and maintaining good ideas in the gaming space. They really need to turn this whole Windows Store situation around entirely and hopefully it doesn't take 5 years to kill it off after it's apparent they aren't going anywhere or end up dead after this decade when they tell us they're fixing it the whole time.

MS company heads clearly do not have actual passion regarding their products and services. They have passion in dominating, and in wanting to make money, but not in the actual software, customer service, etc. MS acts like a sociopathic / psychopathic company, where they want the end result of being dominant, but they don't possess consideration of the qualities which makes a company the best in quality. MS tries to just brute force everything to impose the outcome they desire - but the lack of consideration in getting there makes it devoid of all the meaning that would substantiate the desired outcome as the truth.

 

Windows is largely not improving, but is growing in monetization and bloatware, and invasiveware. Microsoft as a company is not improving - its leaner state has produced buggier and less stable releases. I think that Microsoft is not particularly healthy for the computing industry, and is now looking for further ways to exploit its existing IPs, rather than ways to healthily develop them.

[LAwLz]

7 hours ago, Lazmarr said:

First off I never stated they run in exclusive fullscreen. I stated it was the same as running them in exclusive fullscreen. I apologise if that was not clear. What I mean by the same is that the applications are given the same resources/priority as it would if it was a desktop program run in exclusive fullscreen.

I am not arguing the fact of V-sync as it is not something I much care about at present. And you are correct on the issues of Vsync.

There was infact an article I had read, but cannot for the life of me find it due to the now increased number of google results of this very same type of post, where it was shown that windows 10 apps are given the same priority and resources as those in exclusive fullscreen mode.

If I do find the article I will gladly post it.

I don't think anyone said the programs from the store gets a lower priority or lower resources allocated to them. The problems aren't related to resource usage though so even if that was true it still wouldn't matter. The problem is the way it was designed. Desktop gaming and gaming on consoles/phones are very different, and Microsoft trying to push a system designed for the latter. They should have reworked the entire system before releasing games on it. 

It seems like they rushed a very unfinished product and we consumers suffer from it. 

[Misanthrope]

13 hours ago, EChondo said:

I guess I'll throw my 2 cents in and it isn't directly about Windows Store.

 

Microsoft, when it comes to gaming in general, does not know what to do, at all. They don't know what Xbox users want, they don't know what PC users want, and they will never know until we hurt their profits.

 

As an example, look at Kinect. Kinect is a great product for a vast amount of use cases, except gaming. However, Microsoft thought it was the best idea to take Kinect and force it on Xbox One users(by including it in the packaging) only to remove it from the packaging months later because no one was using it and people refused to buy it since it added cost to it. Microsoft even bought a developer and later turned them into a Kinect developer(RIP Rare). Kinect was NEVER a "gaming" product and Microsoft could not understand that for 5 whole years. But on the sideline for that 5 years there were tons of other industries wanting access to Kinect, whether it was robotics, medical, or just basic movement tracking. Even with the Xbox One version it took Microsoft a year(IIRC?) to bring out a PC version of the Kinect.

 

Now we're all familiar with GFWL, so I don't need nor want to go into that. But you can see my point.

 

Microsoft sucks when it comes to introducing and maintaining good ideas in the gaming space. They really need to turn this whole Windows Store situation around entirely and hopefully it doesn't take 5 years to kill it off after it's apparent they aren't going anywhere or end up dead after this decade when they tell us they're fixing it the whole time.

Well we know that they've found some success in the console gaming space by just copying the competition and their strategies. Why couldn't they copy Steam or even Origin for that matter? 

 

You're probably right in your assessment here: they probably said "let's try to get PC gaming money" and a few meetings after it somehow shifted into "Integrate and consolidate platforms into the Windows environment" You know: the kind of shit corporate people love to hear about but gamers couldn't give a damn about. 

 

It's like your business manager uncle trying to throw you a party and instead of making things fun he comes up with power point presentations about the strategic plans and overall DNA of the party to achieve continuous improvement and synergy of Fun.

[Fetzie]

20 hours ago, Humbug said:

Linux gaming has improved massively in the last 3 years.

the people who say that Linux gaming sucks only do so because they are directly comparing it to windows (I.e. The greatest video gaming platform of all time).

When I am put before the choice of operating system, I can't just look at "who has improved the most in the last 3 years". I have to look at how the two OSs compare head to head, and Linux loses to Windows when it comes to game compatibility. The amount of hoops you have to jump through to get some games to even run (disregarding the performance) means that there is no way that I would install Linux as my daily driver OS on my personal rig. Not to mention the advice I found when researching how to run GTA5 on Linux being "dual-boot Windows" or TekSyndicate's "run a Windows VM with PCI-E passthrough on one of the more complicated Linux distris available" quite simply meant to me "Linux is not ready for use as a gaming OS". If I have to run a Windows VM, or dualboot Windows to play a game then I'm sticking with Windows.

 

Now, this may well change with Vulkan being included in the latest game engines, but we'll see a lot of time pass before Vulkan is as ubiquitous as DX3D (I'm also fairly sure, but correct me on this if I'm wrong, that the graphics API is not the only thing that is blocking the deployment of every game on Linux).