[updated] Epic boss accuses MicroSoft of trying to "monopolise game development on PC"

[zMeul]

source: http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/mar/04/microsoft-monopolise-pc-games-development-epic-games-gears-of-war

via: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-03-04-epic-boss-accuses-microsoft-of-trying-to-monopolise-game-development-on-pc

 

just this week I posted an article that sheds some light on this whole mess that is Windows 10, DirectX12 and Universal Windows Platform 

 

here's what going on

Quote

Sweeney called on Microsoft to make UWP an open platform, and he pulled no punches in expressing concern for the future.

 

"Valve's Steam distribution service is booming with over 100m users, and publishers like Adobe, Autodesk, Blizzard, Riot Games and EA are operating highly successful businesses selling their games and content directly to consumers.

"Microsoft's situation, however, is an embarrassment. Seven months after the launch of Windows Store alongside Windows 10, the place remains devoid of the top third-party games and signature applications that define the PC experience. Where's Photoshop? Grand Theft Auto V? Fifa 2016? There are some PC ports of what were great mobile games, and some weirder things, such as the Windows 10 port of the Android port of the PC version of Grand Theft Auto from 2004.

 

"But the good PC stuff isn't there, with the exception of Microsoft's own software products. Does Microsoft really think that independent PC developers and publishers, who cherish their freedom and their direct customer relationships, are going to sign up for this current UWP fiasco?

"In my view, if Microsoft does not commit to opening PC UWP up in the manner described here, then PC UWP can, should, must and will, die as a result of industry backlash. Gamers, developers, publishers simply cannot trust the PC UWP 'platform' so long as Microsoft gives evasive, ambiguous and sneaky answers to questions about UWP's future, as if it's a PR issue. This isn't a PR issue, it's an existential issue for Microsoft, a first-class determinant of Microsoft's future role in the world."

Sweeney said Epic had spoken with Spencer and Microsoft to express its concern about UWP ahead of its announcement. But, it seems, this concern had fallen on deaf ears.

"Because they listened very patiently, I hoped and believed that Microsoft would do the right thing, but here we are. Microsoft's consumer launch and PR around UWP are in full swing, and this side of the story must be told."

 

in yesterday's podcast (TechTalk #104) with JayZTwoCents, Barnacules (a former MS employee, now a independe SW developer) had some not so nice things to say about MS and their Universal Windows Platform

^ jump to 52min

 

the rundown is this

while a universal platform sounds good, for the PC gaming is rather (very) bad since it puts restrictions on the development and directly hinders the natural capabilities of DX12

apps trough MS' Store will run in borderless window, with V-Sync always on and capped at 60FPS

on top of that, UWP introduces a lot of overhead, and reducing overhead that was the main reason why DX12 exists

he also speaks of the possibility that MS one day could just remove the Win32 environment and will leave you (the consumer) with just UWP apps - just like Metro on W8

 

MircroSoft is a monopoly, and so, they can force whatever they envision onto their customers

if HW manufactures, specifically AMD and nVidia, and game developers, do not come forward ,,, well, PC gaming as we know it, will be no more - every PC running Windows OS will be just another X-Box

 

GabeN, praise his name, saw this with W8 launch - the result of that, STEAM OS

the bad part .. STEAM OS is a pile of stinking shite

 

I hope Vulkan and Linux game development takes a huge leap ahead, otherwise ..... rest in pieces

 

---

 

update: MS replies to Sweeney's accusations via Kevin Gallo (corporate vice president of Windows at Microsoft) :

Quote

The Universal Windows Platform is a fully open ecosystem, available to every developer, that can be supported by any store. We continue to make improvements for developers; for example, in the Windows 10 November Update, we enabled people to easily side-load apps by default, with no UX required.
We want to make Windows the best development platform regardless of technologies used, and offer tools to help developers with existing code bases of HTML/JavaScript, .NET and Win32, C+ + and Objective-C bring their code to Windows, and integrate UWP capabilities. With Xamarin, UWP developers can not only reach all Windows 10 devices, but they can now use a large percentage of their C# code to deliver a fully native mobile app experiences for iOS and Android. We also posted a blog on our development tools recently.

----

 

 

 

 

Edited March 4, 2016 by zMeul

[Sauron]

This is simply microsoft trying to fidelize their customers like apple has done for years. Unfortunately, unlike apple, MS has a choke hold on the vast majority of PC commercial software, including games. Hopefully vulkan can stop them.

[sof006]

I still don't see vulkan replacing DX 12. As awesome as that would be, it won't happen. At least, not unless developers are on board.

[Delicieuxz]

Major developers are on board. Check my signature. They're not dedicated to just Vulkan and not DX12 (well, maybe apart from Valve), but they're implementing Vulkan into their engines just as they are DX12 (while Valve may be only implementing Vulkan... my guess). If Vulkan receives competitive development and documentation to DX, then I think it will be a superior choice for developers who expect a large portion of their sales to come from non Windows 10 versions of Windows, as well as Linux.

[thexzenon]

Well you can't blame them for trying to make their Store more popular. The only problem I see is that they are too late in the game and people won't switch to their service when they have Steam.

Off-topic: Why do you always spell MS's name MicroSoft? It's not a complaint or anything of that kind, but just by reading the title I thought to myself "Is this by zMeul?". 

[zMeul]

1 minute ago, crisro996 said:

Off-topic: Why do you always spell MS's name MicroSoft? It's not a complaint or anything of that kind, but just by reading the title I thought to myself "Is this by zMeul?". 

[GoodBytes]

Correction to your post zMeul:

• Universal Apps aren't limited to 60fps
• Disabling of V-Sync is in the works (probably with Redstone 1 update).
• You can sideload Universal Apps (Settings > Update & Security > For developers).

Also, Epic boss says that he has no proof of this, only a fear/concern, and nothing else.

 

And, also, what Epic co-founder, Tim Sweeney, forgot to consider, is that Steam already has a monopoly, practically. Heck, many games you go at the store and buy, is nothing more than a Steam game key in the box, and a disk, where the is only Steam on it. You have to download and install the game through Steam. And, as gamers are conditioned to go to Steam for games, if a developer doesn't release their game on the platform (making Valve get a 30% cut of sales, including Valve forced sales, whether the devs agrees or not), the game won't sale well.

 

We need choice.

[CommandMan7]

Well I can see what M$ is trying to do here - they're trying to say, "Hey Developers! Develop once, works across all platforms!". Instead, they've locked and restricted their store so much that most people would rather not deal with the hassle and controversy. 

 

Windows got popular because M$ left their greedy fingers out of the software sales business, at least for a while. Now they just want as many people as possible to be using their store, which won't happen because almost every software on the windows store you can get elsewhere, easier. They're now bringing in almost the full xbox lineup to try and incentive people to use their store. It's not going to work.

 

When will M$ learn that their Windows platform got successful because it mostly left people alone after they purchased the OS? 

 

M$ failed things:

Bing (15% market share, but only after they've forced it as default onto every W8 and W10 PC)

Windows 8 Metro UI (let's make a type of program on windows that you can't put in a window hurr durr durr)

Windows Phone (2.8% market share, due to the horrible windows store)

Windows Store (for more, read this - http://www.irrlicht3d.org/pivot/entry.php?id=1485)

Every promise that they care about PC gaming, ever. See spoiler below.

Spoiler

• 2005 - We care about PC gaming, Longhorn (Vista) to usher in modern PC gaming with "Tray and Play"
  Vista launches with none of the stuff MS promised, Vista itself sucks the ass of a thousand camels. 
   
• 2006 - MS: Don't Count PC Games Out
  MS announces GFWL and how utterly amazing it will be, suckers everywhere rejoice in the eventual ass reaming they don't know is coming yet.
   
• 2007 - MS continues PC push
  MS launches GFWL...and it has a $50 a year fee, and they announce a whole slew of games to include Shadowrun with cross platform play and Gears of War 1! What are you paying for you ask? Jank ass software that crashes and has the most unintuitive updating system known to man. Load a game, game says you need update. Signs you out, downloads update, you jump back in...oh GFWL client has a update too! signs you out, downloads up date and you log back in... 
  
  MS will shortly thereafter disband Ensemble because MS feels that they're (MS) moving in a different direction! But don't worry we tots <3 you PC gamers.
   
• 2008 - MS: PC gaming is A-okay
  Yea we've looked at some money pie charts and can see that PC gaming brings in billions in revenue. Here is our open letter to how awesome PC gaming is and our promise to support it! We finally put some new titles up on GFWL! Oh and we got rid of the $50 a year fee for GFWL, see we're serious about PC gaming! If that's not a sign of commitment, I don't know what is!
   
• 2008 - MS: PC gaming is not dead!
  Look at this event we're throwing for PC gaming, you think we'd throw this if we didn't truly care about it?! Look at these games that will be on GFWL. We <3 PC gaming. You want fixes for GFWL issues? We'll look into that.
   
• 2008 - MS bolsters PC gaming with all new Games for Windows Live!
  Hey gaiz remember those GFWL client issues you were having...well we didn't fix those per say but....here is the same shit in a slightly newer skin! PROGRESS
   
• 2009 - MS: PC gaming still a priority for us!
  Okay gaiz look, this time we're serious about our upcoming push in PC gaming. It's so vital to us at MS that we give the PC our love and support!
   
• 2010 - MS: "We're doubling down on PC gaming
  By doubling down we mean we're keeping this shittastic GFWL client around because! We might even throw an update at it to fix the problem of game saves being randomly deleted or rendered worthless...maybe. 
   
• 2010 - MS Launches Games for Windows Marketplace
  Hey gaiz, we're making GFWL even better because it's now called Games for Windows Marketplace. Everything is brand new and easy to use, anonymous journalists have even said it's better than Steam. We had 3 interns and a janitor work on this, so you know we're committed!
   
• 2010 - MS: Windows 8 is going to relaunch gaming!
  Hey gaiz, MS again. With Windows 8 we're totally going to put our full weight behind PC gaming just like we promised back in 2006! Pls be excite.
   
• 2012 - MS: We won't ditch GFWL!
  We're committed to PC gaming and we absolutely think GFWL is the best play to get PC games and play with others. Our client is awesome....ly bloated and deletes shit randomly, but that's really one of the charms of PC gaming that we captured! It's a balanced experience! Hope you rike!
   
• 2013 - MS to discontinue GFWL
  Hey gaiz new manager here, so like a bunch of your games might stop working come 2014...but that's okay! We expect there to be transitions as we build out new investments, but we remain committed to bringing first party gaming services and games to Windows for years to come. We will share more details in the future!
   
• 2013 - MS promises core first party games coming to PC
  We're so committed we swear!

Original source:  Angelus Errare  on the neogaf forums.

 

 

Microsoft is just plain bad at providing features that people actually want.

[zMeul]

11 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

• Universal Apps aren't limited to 60fps

explain this: 

 

the observed frame rate does not, ever, jump above 60 FPS - this is with VSync OFF

even tho the internal benchmark reports framerates above 60

Quote

Ashes of the Singularity can self-report frame rates higher than 60Hz (or the maximum refresh of your screen) even though what is being shown on the screen is actually only running at 60 FPS.

 

---

 

Quote

You can sideload Universal Apps (Settings > Update & Security > For developers)

sideloading is for developers, not the consumer

[Misanthrope]

AFAIK you dont need to be in Windows store to be DX12 so their version will be demonstrably worst than steam's. 

 

 

[GoodBytes]

2 minutes ago, zMeul said:

explain this:

sideloading is for developers, not the consumer

1. Sure. Get a  better graphics card, and get a monitor that can do more than 60Hz.
2. Nope, the 3 options are:

• Windows Store apps (default)
• Sideload apps. Install apps from other sources that you trust
• Developer mode. Install any signed app and use advance development features. [If you wonder: "any signed app", means that the app has a generic signature included with it, and not one provided by Microsoft. This is to allow devs to, well develop their app. Since Windows XP, programs needs a digital signature. That is why, when you run an app with a generic isgnature, or none, you have this:
  

[zMeul]

Just now, GoodBytes said:

1. Sure. Get a  better graphics card, and get a monitor that can do more than 60Hz.

mate, do you even read what I quoted you?

the Ashes benchmark internally reported framerates over 60FPS while the orbserved FPS does not ever go above 60, even if V-Sync was OFF

 

this is not about the performance of the video card nor is it about the monitor, VSync is OFF

do you understand this?!

[GoodBytes]

8 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

AFAIK you dont need to be in Windows store to be DX12 so their version will be demonstrably worst than steam's. 

 

 

Exactly. Epic co-founder, Tim Sweeney said that this is what he is concerned about. It is a concern not the reality.

Microsoft COULD make exclusive features. And yes Microsoft could put ads bar everywhere on Windows including on the title bar of every program, and Microsoft COULD make it so that when you boot the computer you have a 3 min video ad play before you can login. Microsoft COULD make you answer questions about the ad to be sure you watch it, and if you get it wrong, it deletes all your files. But will they? I don't think so.

[GoodBytes]

1 minute ago, zMeul said:

mate, do you even read what I quoted you?

the Ashes benchmark internally reported framerates over 60FPS while the orbserved FPS does not ever go above 60, even if V-Sync was OFF

 

this is not about the performance of the video card nor is it about the monitor, VSync is OFF

do you understand this?!

V-Sync can't be turned off, on Universal Apps, currently, you said it yourself.

Do you know what V-Sync is?

[zMeul]

Just now, GoodBytes said:

Exactly. Epic co-founder, Tim Sweeney said that this is what he is concerned about. It is a concern not the reality.

Microsoft COULD make exclusive features. And yes Microsoft could put ads bar everywhere on Windows including on the title bar of every program, and Microsoft COULD make it so that when you boot the computer you have a 3 min video ad play before you can login. Microsoft COULD make you answer questions about the ad to be sure you watch it, and if you get it wrong, it deletes all your files. But will they? I don't think so.

MS already put adds in the login screen

we should all wait to see if MS does something?

 

like with the keylogging that went into the insider build - what people said then? "let's wait and see if MS puts this in the retail version"

and what MS did? they put it in the retail version, and not only!

[Misanthrope]

5 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Exactly. Epic co-founder, Tim Sweeney said that this is what he is concerned about. It is a concern not the reality.

Microsoft COULD make exclusive features. And yes Microsoft could put ads bar everywhere on Windows including on the title bar of every program, and Microsoft COULD make it so that when you boot the computer you have a 3 min video ad play before you can login. Microsoft COULD make you answer questions about the ad to be sure you watch it, and if you get it wrong, it deletes all your files. But will they? I don't think so.

That would be just flat out incompetent from a business perspective.

 

Which leads me to think that the windows store wouldn't focus on traditional hardcore games and it's aiming at competing with the Apple store and Google Play with that kind of games and apps: mobile-like but under a unified platform: you grab your windows phone and use your laptop or AIO and still can use the same apps you're used to. 

 

The only caveat is the xbox one to windows store exclusives with very different, "core" type games but probably just a (imho misguided) strategy to get some console users into the windows 10 platform on their other devices and such, offering a "familiar" game. 

[zMeul]

8 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

V-Sync can't be turned off, on Universal Apps, currently, you said it yourself.

nVidia did managed to bypass it with their own legacy instructions embedded in DX12

 

Quote

Do you know what V-Sync is?

you are joking .. right?!

 

---

 

you sir have come to a point where I cannot reply to your posts anymore

I cannot take you seriously when, presented with evidence of the contrary, still claim MS did not do it - and this is not the 1st time we "argue" about this

we're done! outside you as a moderator, we have nothing to talk about anymore

[GoodBytes]

19 minutes ago, zMeul said:

MS already put adds in the login screen

we should all wait to see if MS does something?

 

like with the keylogging that went into the insider build - what people said then? "let's wait and see if MS puts this in the retail version"

and what MS did? they put it in the retail version, and not only!

3 min video ads on the login screen? Where? Oh you mean the using Windows Spotlight, which was clearly stated at the reveal that there will be ads. Simple, don't use it.

Someone has to pay for the photographer images. Go buy them yourself, if you don't want ads, or get what is free, or take them yourself.

 

16 minutes ago, zMeul said:

nVidia did managed to bypass it with their own legacy instructions embedded in DX12

 

you are joking .. right?!

 

---

 

you sir have come to a point where I cannot reply to your posts anymore

I cannot take you seriously when, presented with evidence of the contrary, still claim MS did not do it - and this is not the 1st time we "argue" about this

we're done! outside you as a moderator, we have nothing to talk about anymore

Excellent! Don't say crap, and you don't have to deal with me, with your completely anti-Microsoft views, spreading false facts, and miss informing people, with the inability to expect ones mistake or update your own anti-Microsoft posts. And if you say I am a Microsoft fanboy, then all I can say, is not my problem if you don't read more of my posts, because I sure am criticizing Microsoft.

 

[GoodBytes]

23 minutes ago, Misanthrope said:

That would be just flat out incompetent from a business perspective.

 

Which leads me to think that the windows store wouldn't focus on traditional hardcore games and it's aiming at competing with the Apple store and Google Play with that kind of games and apps: mobile-like but under a unified platform: you grab your windows phone and use your laptop or AIO and still can use the same apps you're used to. 

 

The only caveat is the xbox one to windows store exclusives with very different, "core" type games but probably just a (imho misguided) strategy to get some console users into the windows 10 platform on their other devices and such, offering a "familiar" game. 

I believe you are right. Doing this, and aiming at XBox One players, would allow Microsoft to target XBox One players for other games (possibility also the same IP but different game styles), that works better with mouse and keyboard, boosting sales. Also, boosting XBox One players to upgrade their PC to Windows 10, let alone, maybe even push them to upgrade their possibility aged old PC to a new gaming one (personal stats: I see many console players sticking with console gaming, because their PC is really really old, and a simply graphics card upgrade would just not do, and they see the PC replacement as a big expensive, especially that they do the rest with their phone/tablet).

 

What ads confusing is that Microsoft games are only available in their store,  so PC hardcore gamers thinks that this is the direction Microsoft is going for, but ultimately it makes sense, why should Microsoft loose 30% of their sales to another store, when they have theirs? Plus it can push people to their store (at least, that is how they probably see it).

 

Anyway, before I take judgment, because no one here knows Microsoft plans, I like to wait for Redstone 1 update, to get a better hint of the direction of things. I think the action/decision they are taking now is new, and it would requires possibly big changes to the Universal App platform to reach the end goal, and so a simple system update won't be able to provide it, a big update can (Redstone 1).

[Master Disaster]

Microsoft trying to monopolise PC gaming, lmao.

 

To get a monopoly you have to be in a strong position in the industry/market and MS are, well they're not even in a strong position in the console market and they prioritised that over PC gaming.

 

PC gamers have such a disdain of MS that the notion they could ever take over the market is beyond laughable and venturing into the straight up absurd.

[Warcony]

I love how game developers cry monopoly on the PC platform while currently developing paid games exclusive to iOS and other controlled platforms. I hope that the Microsoft's platform will draw companies like Ubisoft and EA from their own platforms and clients on the PC.

 

At this point, Steam is synonymous with "PC Gaming" and that isn't a good thing.

[Humbug]

3 hours ago, zMeul said:

 

GabeN, praise his name, saw this with W8 launch - the result of that, STEAM OS

the bad part .. STEAM OS is a pile of stinking shite

 

I hope Vulkan and Linux game development takes a huge leap ahead, otherwise ..... rest in pieces

Linux gaming has improved massively in the last 3 years.

the people who say that Linux gaming sucks only do so because they are directly comparing it to windows (I.e. The greatest video gaming platform of all time).

they do not understand how great Linux gaming now is compared to what it was. Just off the top of my head you can now natively play stuff life metro redux series, bioshock infinite, civilization series, valves catalog including CS GO and DOTA2, GRID racing games, Alien Isolation, Talos principle, Shadow of Mordor, Witcher 2, ARMA 3, ARK survival etc apart from the scores of simpler and indie games. Add to that the fact is that the developer tools and API ecosystem is modernizing with so much of the industry coming behind Vulkan and they are getting HTC vive virtual reality. All this good stuff is incredible for Linux compared to what it used to be...

 

of course none of this means that it's the year of the Linux desktop or that Linux will start replacing windows etc. I just posted above because the people who shit on Linux gaming have no ideas how unprecedented their current situation and rate of improvement is. I have an AMD GPU (who doesn't focus on openGL performance) and even I can now easily game smoothly on Linux now with more great games than I have time to play, again note that I am not saying it's a match for windows yet. Anyway my point is that all the right things have happened or are happening with regard to Linux PC gaming. But if Linux wants to ever compete with windows PC there is so much more to it than gaming. And for that it's upto canonical with Ubuntu, to debian, the Linux mint guys, fedora, and all the other Linux distros to figure out their trajectory and pose a challenge leveraging a number of factors only one of which is the improved gaming ecosystem. So far they haven't...

[FakezZ]

56 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

3 min video ads on the login screen? Where? Oh you mean the using Windows Spotlight, which was clearly stated at the reveal that there will be ads. Simple, don't use it.

Someone has to pay for the photographer images. Go buy them yourself, if you don't want ads, or get what is free, or take them yourself.

 

Excellent! Don't say crap, and you don't have to deal with me, with your completely anti-Microsoft views, spreading false facts, and miss informing people, with the inability to expect ones mistake or update your own anti-Microsoft posts. And if you say I am a Microsoft fanboy, then all I can say, is not my problem if you don't read more of my posts, because I sure am criticizing Microsoft.

 

Lol let's be honest I have seen you a lot of times on the forum defending MS for a bunch of shady stuff... Is there a particular reason that is, or is it just personal obsession?

[deviant88]

2 hours ago, sof006 said:

I still don't see vulkan replacing DX 12. As awesome as that would be, it won't happen. At least, not unless developers are on board.

Have you seen the level of support developers gave khronos to make vulkan? 

Nothing is going to replace anything. Developers aren't free to do whatever they want, most engines are part of massive corporations with hundrets of employees, if the decision is to use DX12 for future engine on Windows because its like 10 times easier to port from DX11 code to DX12 code they will do just that.

Vulkan is an infant it lacks so many things, its very complex to get up and running and has poor performance right now due to lack of experience and drivers, while DX12 on the other hand not only it had a head start but it has proven with Futuremark a huge draw call/cpu improvement, where as vulkan runs worse than anything else at the moment.

 

Vulkan is going to be a niche just like opengl was because microsoft holds the whole desktop platform in a firm grip and they can drive the platform and marketing togheter with nice integration, apple doing their own thing with metal, and the linux community are a bunch of retards, they should unify most distros and bring a stable alternative to desktop, instead everyone loves doing their own little puppydistro and they all suck because core problems still are not solved no matter what flavour.

 

The only one right now that can make vulkan relevant is Google and their android platform.

 

I seriously hope as portable devices become better that windows becomes less relevant and google decides to port android as a desktop OS x86 that can also run most google store apps on x86 thats the only scenario in which vulkan can become relevant imo.I know theres remix os but it needs to backed and marketed by google with opengl/vulkan api as default render api's integrated for everything including GUI. I dont think either google or nvidia/amd/intel would commit to support at least most modern hardware on such a platform thats why windows succeeds and microsoft screws us all in buttox.

[GoodBytes]

If Microsoft wants a monopoly on the PC space, let alone anything significant in market share they have massive amount of work to do. How long did it take Steam to be good? How many years of intensive continuous work the company had to do?

 

Look at GOG Galaxy, it was announced how long ago, and still extremely bare bone.

 

On top of this, and the reason why I am not worried about anything, is that Microsoft has competition, they have Steam, they have Linux based OSs, and they have Vulkan. All if which runs outside of Windows. If we were back in XP days, I would agree with Epic, but currently there is no concerns.