[updated] Epic boss accuses MicroSoft of trying to "monopolise game development on PC"

[zMeul]

25 minutes ago, Humbug said:

Linux gaming has improved massively in the last 3 years.

the people who say that Linux gaming sucks only do so because they are directly comparing it to windows (I.e. The greatest video gaming platform of all time).

they do not understand how great Linux gaming now is compared to what it was. Just off the top of my head you can now natively play stuff life metro redux series, bioshock infinite, civilization series, valves catalog including CS GO and DOTA2, GRID racing games, Alien Isolation, Talos principle, Shadow of Mordor, Witcher 2, ARMA 3, ARK survival etc apart from the scores of simpler and indie games. Add to that the fact is that the developer tools and API ecosystem is modernizing with so much of the industry coming behind Vulkan and they are getting HTC vive virtual reality. All this good stuff is incredible for Linux compared to what it used to be...

 

of course none of this means that it's the year of the Linux desktop or that Linux will start replacing windows etc. I just posted above because the people who shit on Linux gaming have no ideas how unprecedented their current situation and rate of improvement is. I have an AMD GPU (who doesn't focus on openGL performance) and even I can now easily game smoothly on Linux now with more great games than I have time to play, again note that I am not saying it's a match for windows yet. Anyway my point is that all the right things have happened or are happening with regard to Linux PC gaming. But if Linux wants to ever compete with windows PC there is so much more to it than gaming. And for that it's upto canonical with Ubuntu, to debian, the Linux mint guys, fedora, and all the other Linux distros to figure out their trajectory and pose a challenge leveraging a number of factors only one of which is the improved gaming ecosystem. So far they haven't...

yes, but the performance is horrible, in most cases

 

and let's get back to Linux as a work environment ... people that spent decades on Windows will have a very hard time transitioning

I started learning Linux, specifically started with RedHat and transitioned to Debian based distributions about 10y ago - to this day, I can't say I know as much compared to Windows

Mint, Ubuntu, STEAM OS have a nice interface .. but what's beneath it, it can be a horror show for the initiate

[Warcony]

16 minutes ago, FakezZ said:

Lol let's be honest I have seen you a lot of times on the forum defending MS for a bunch of shady stuff... Is there a particular reason that is, or is it just personal obsession?

People also crap on Microsoft every day on this forum and blow any small piece of "news" way out of proportion. People are still up in arms about Windows 10 "spying on them" while they walk around with an Android phone in their pocket that is literally tracking every step they take throughout the day. To be clear, I am not saying MS is better than Google, I am just trying to point out that what they are doing is no worse than what all other companies are offering.

 

Bottom line: if you don't like what Microsoft is doing then don't use their products and/or services. At this point in time there are a lot of other options to fulfill your needs.

[MEC-777]

Here's Logan, Kane and Wendel's views on this whole situation. 

 

 

 

If you don't want to be chained down by the monopoly that is MS, Linux is the future. 

[GoodBytes]

13 minutes ago, FakezZ said:

Lol let's be honest I have seen you a lot of times on the forum defending MS for a bunch of shady stuff... Is there a particular reason that is, or is it just personal obsession?

I don't defend Microsoft. I explain the reality of things. Now yes, granted, sometimes I am wrong, and that is fine. I don't claim I am all knowing, I correct myself, and apologies. We all here to learn something, at least that is how I am seeing it. And the reason why I can comment on all of this, is that I am in the industry. Software development is what I do, and I need to know everything about Windows, and do analysis of Microsoft direction. I use beta OS of Windows say day1 since they started opening beta program, all on order to test my software. My work PC is on Fast ring Win10, not because it is cool, but as I do my work, at the same time I do preliminary tests of the software. part of the team I am in, is also doing the same, to ensure our software continue to work properly. I need to read everything from Microsoft. I have also worked as IT in the past, giving me knowledge of on software deployment, how it works for IT, how they manage things, know better Microsoft tools, all knowledge that has serves me and my team in better improve our software. That is why I know a lot on Microsoft. 

 

[dimitriianghelov]

they can't monopolize shit after losing the case with Internet Explorer even if they wanted

 

also i'll never use SteamOS as long as Valve doesn't get their shit together , public firing of a employee and then the shitshow that was Dota 2 Majors , please for the love of god act like a fucking company not like a headless chicken

[MEC-777]

This is actually much more serious than most people think it is, IMO. After the free Windows 10 update, I was actually OK with using Windows as my primary OS. But now that this scary stuff has surfaced, Windows isn't looking so nice any more. 

 

Ultimately, I think we will have to wait and see how this developes before drawing further conclusions about how bad the Windows gaming platform will be. There will always be steam, gog, origin etc. 

[MEC-777]

5 minutes ago, dimitriianghelov said:

they can't monopolize shit after losing the case with Internet Explorer even if they wanted

 

also i'll never use SteamOS as long as Valve doesn't get their shit together , public firing of a employee and then the shitshow that was Dota 2 Majors , please for the love of god act like a fucking company not like a headless chicken

I keep telling people not to use SteamOS. It makes far more sense to install a Linux distro of choice (like Ubuntu or what ever) and just install steam on that. That way you have a fully functional OS which can run steam just as windows does.

 

All SteamOS is, is a modified version of Debian that automatically opens to Steam big picture mode on boot up. That's it. It's stupid. lol.  

[Humbug]

8 minutes ago, MEC-777 said:

I keep telling people not to use SteamOS. It makes far more sense to install a Linux distro of choice (like Ubuntu or what ever) and just install steam on that. That way you have a fully functional OS which can run steam just as windows does.

 

All SteamOS is, is a modified version of Debian that automatically opens to Steam big picture mode on boot up. That's it. It's stupid. lol.  

yep Even Valve said not to use steamOS on the desktop.

steamOS only exists to be a game development target for Linux and to be a console like OS in the living room to boot straight into big picture mode to give an out of the box experience which can be operated with a controller from the couch and has the right drivers for gaming etc. But it was never meant as windows competitor... For that you can use Ubuntu or debian or mint or whatever and install steam on top of that ( all the steamOS games work).

[Nineshadow]

1 hour ago, deviant88 said:

Have you seen the level of support developers gave khronos to make vulkan? 

Nothing is going to replace anything. Developers aren't free to do whatever they want, most engines are part of massive corporations with hundrets of employees, if the decision is to use DX12 for future engine on Windows because its like 10 times easier to port from DX11 code to DX12 code they will do just that.

Vulkan is an infant it lacks so many things, its very complex to get up and running and has poor performance right now due to lack of experience and drivers, while DX12 on the other hand not only it had a head start but it has proven with Futuremark a huge draw call/cpu improvement, where as vulkan runs worse than anything else at the moment.

 

Vulkan is going to be a niche just like opengl was because microsoft holds the whole desktop platform in a firm grip and they can drive the platform and marketing togheter with nice integration, apple doing their own thing with metal, and the linux community are a bunch of retards, they should unify most distros and bring a stable alternative to desktop, instead everyone loves doing their own little puppydistro and they all suck because core problems still are not solved no matter what flavour.

 

The only one right now that can make vulkan relevant is Google and their android platform.

 

I seriously hope as portable devices become better that windows becomes less relevant and google decides to port android as a desktop OS x86 that can also run most google store apps on x86 thats the only scenario in which vulkan can become relevant imo.I know theres remix os but it needs to backed and marketed by google with opengl/vulkan api as default render api's integrated for everything including GUI. I dont think either google or nvidia/amd/intel would commit to support at least most modern hardware on such a platform thats why windows succeeds and microsoft screws us all in buttox.

OpenGL was not a niche.

[DEDRICK]

You can't turn V-Sync off because the game is running in Borderless Fullscreen, which means DWM(Aero) is applying Triple Buffered V-Sync.  The game can report 500 FPS internally but DWM caps the game at your refresh rate.

 

This is why Borderless games don't Screen Tear with "V-Sync Off" in the game

[LAwLz]

I am very happy to hear that people are so displeased with the universal Windows platform. I've seen saying it is a piece of shit since day one but was worried that people would just eat that crap right up.

The last thing we need is more bloat and overhead in programs.

 

I want more alternatives to Steam, because I am not pleased with that either. But what we should be asking for are GOOD alternatives. Alternatives like GOG which don't build in a bunch of crap like DRM which only harms customers (not pirates). We should not be asking for more crap like the Windows Store which are in many ways worse than what we already got.

[MEC-777]

Some more technical insight on what's happening with this: 

 

Go to 19 minutes in.

 

 

[Tieox]

The way I see it Steam used to be the diamond in the rough, but let us all be honest, their customer service has dropped.  If moving more of their games to their own stores, equals competition towards all the other gaming clients, then it's a good thing.  

 

It's been too stagnant for way too long.

 

 

[MEC-777]

1 hour ago, zMeul said:

yes, but the performance is horrible, in most cases

 

and let's get back to Linux as a work environment ... people that spent decades on Windows will have a very hard time transitioning

I started learning Linux, specifically started with RedHat and transitioned to Debian based distributions about 10y ago - to this day, I can't say I know as much compared to Windows

Mint, Ubuntu, STEAM OS have a nice interface .. but what's beneath it, it can be a horror show for the initiate

No, it's not horrible in most cases. Also, the transition to Linux for most people would not be anywhere near as bad as you make it out to be. 

 

For what most people need a PC for, Linux is actually a better platform/OS for many reasons but people are too scared of change and thus have no idea. 

[samcool55]

Umm... I really really don't understand this, at all.

They create DX12, awesome piece of tech, and then they put up rules which forces devs to stop using pieces of it?

It's like a car manufacturer creating a supercar or hypercar, and then turning it's power down to make it more suitable for driving through town at 30Kph...

 

Really doesn't make any sense to any half-decent gamer. They probably said DX12 and W10 and whatever else will be aimed at pc gamers, but then they shoot themself in the foot and do this. I think this is what you get if MS fires the only dude with a brain at their company (yes i'm referring to barnacules).

[Tieox]

With an ailing economy, every company is seeking ways to create a forced if need be eco-system to maintain their survival.  

 

Whether it will sustain is irrelevant I believe.

[zMeul]

15 minutes ago, MEC-777 said:

No, it's not horrible in most cases. Also, the transition to Linux for most people would not be anywhere near as bad as you make it out to be. 

 

For what most people need a PC for, Linux is actually a better platform/OS for many reasons but people are too scared of change and thus have no idea. 

the people you talk about they'd rather pirate Windows than use a free OS

 

I'm not making it to be horrible, it just is

put a linux noobie to compile some software on his own - let's see how that goes

god forbid he'll encounter dependencies errors

[LAwLz]

11 minutes ago, samcool55 said:

Umm... I really really don't understand this, at all.

They create DX12, awesome piece of tech, and then they put up rules which forces devs to stop using pieces of it?

It's like a car manufacturer creating a supercar or hypercar, and then turning it's power down to make it more suitable for driving through town at 30Kph...

 

Really doesn't make any sense to any half-decent gamer. They probably said DX12 and W10 and whatever else will be aimed at pc gamers, but then they shoot themself in the foot and do this. I think this is what you get if MS fires the only dude with a brain at their company (yes i'm referring to barnacules).

The problem is not DX12. The problem is the Microsoft store. Things bought from the Microsoft app store has to comply with a bunch of different things, and the final image from the game has to go through a bunch of extra steps before being presented to the user.

As long as you don't use the Microsoft store, DX12 will be the same awesome piece of tech we expect it to be. If you do use the Microsoft store, then expect things like SLI/Crossfire, G-Sync/FreeSync, game overlays and game captures won't work, and things like VSync and DRM to always be enabled. Just overall a terrible experience.

 

Basically, stay away from the Microsoft store like if it was the plague until they fix this shit. DX12 seems awesome though. It's just that the store has a bunch of restrictions nobody in their right mind likes or wants.

[MEC-777]

18 minutes ago, zMeul said:

the people you talk about they'd rather pirate Windows than use a free OS

 

I'm not making it to be horrible, it just is

put a linux noobie to compile some software on his own - let's see how that goes

god forbid he'll encounter dependencies errors

The average user, which is who I was referring to, is not compiling anything. They're checking email, listening to music, watching movies, YT/netflix, and facebook. If it does what they need it to do in pretty much the same way, they won't need to bother pirating windows.

 

As for Linux being horrible - you stated performance is horrible. Since we were talking about gaming primarily, I assumed you meant gaming performance. Which it is not. If you're referring to something else, then say so and be specific. Horrible in what way and how? 

 

There's a learning process to everything. I've never compiled any software in my life. Put me to compile something in windows and guarantee, I'll run into problems just out of pure lack of knowledge. That goes for just about anything. 

[shermantanker]

5 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

The problem is not DX12. The problem is the Microsoft store. Things bought from the Microsoft app store has to comply with a bunch of different things, and the final image from the game has to go through a bunch of extra steps before being presented to the user.

As long as you don't use the Microsoft store, DX12 will be the same awesome piece of tech we expect it to be. If you do use the Microsoft store, then expect things like SLI/Crossfire, G-Sync/FreeSync, game overlays and game captures won't work, and things like VSync and DRM to always be enabled. Just overall a terrible experience.

 

Basically, stay away from the Microsoft store like if it was the plague until they fix this shit. DX12 seems awesome though. It's just that the store has a bunch of restrictions nobody in their right mind likes or wants.

I'm in the same boat. I love windows, and could never use Linux or OSX. The Windows store is trash, but its also new. There is no one stopping them from making it better in the future. What the epic guy is saying is pure speculation/tin foil hat. I mean just look at what Phil Spencer has been saying over the last few weeks, and it is the complete opposite of what he is talking about. I mean really dropping win32?!?!?! are you effing serious....

[zMeul]

11 minutes ago, MEC-777 said:

There's a learning process to everything. I've never compiled any software in my life. Put me to compile something in windows and guarantee, I'll run into problems just out of pure lack of knowledge. That goes for just about anything. 

just a few months ago I tried to install the STEAM client on Ubuntu x64 - ran into dependencies problems and some other stuff related to the MESA / nVidia's video drivers;I couldn't even get back to the Unity desktop

scoured the internet and Ubuntu forums for a fix, couldn't find anything short of performing a reinstall and doing things in a particular order - I gave up; wiped the drive and installed W10 Insider

[dimitriianghelov]

Phil Spencer responded

 

 

 

 

[LAwLz]

28 minutes ago, dimitriianghelov said:

Phil Spencer responded
-snip-

Haha what a load of bull. There is nothing even remotely "open" about WUP. It would be possible, but hard, to even argue that for Win32 which is far less restrictive. You might as well say iOS is very open.

 

When a company describes something as an "opportunity", it's usually a very bad thing.

[Doobeedoo]

Don't like games being limited like current GoW:UE though it's fine as far as W10 and D12 I get that. As far as Windows Store and competitive ground I can see, but hopefully they change limitations that come with it. Sad that game got released with problems and it's remaster, not running well, limited graphical settings and limitations known.
Just kind of puts bad taste as far as Win10 and DX12 specially GoW as remaster.

Hopefully they fix the game and limitations following.

[dimitriianghelov]

45 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Haha what a load of bull. There is nothing even remotely "open" about WUP. It would be possible, but hard, to even argue that for Win32 which is far less restrictive. You might as well say iOS is very open.

 

When a company describes something as an "opportunity", it's usually a very bad thing.

 

 Microsoft got to him