NASA's Accidental Warp Field

[Ertman]

Well this certainly looks interesting. I hope to see that this turns out to be true. It may not be practical for quite a long time, but it would mean it's the first step to a promising future.

[LukaP]

Glad to see there was an explanation on how warp tech actually works, many don't know though

And yeah, Mass Effect style fast travels awesomeness ^^

Mass Effect didnt use a warp field drive though. As its name suggests, the Mass Relays actually changed the mass of the ship in the "bubble" to zero and then propelled it at FTL speeds.

[Sunako]

@LukaP  Before I enter into discussion With you can you answer a few questions for me.

Are you basing your compression and elongation of space behind the craft from the

viewpoint of inside or outside the vehicle. Also were you implying of using the the ino

drive before forming a warp field or after.

[LukaP]

@LukaP  Before I enter into discussion With you can you answer a few questions for me.

Are you basing your compression and elongation of space behind the craft from the

viewpoint of inside or outside the vehicle. Also were you implying of using the the ino

drive before forming a warp field or after.

The warp drive compresses space inside a "warp bubble". That compression is seen from inside that bubble as moving towards wherever youre going. but from outside the bubble, the ship would be stationary and the bubble (if it were visible) would warp itself (and the ship) towards the target. This is due to the law that laws of physics must apply in any inertial system.

 

One uses an ion drive (or really whatever kind of conventional engine) to traverse the now shortened space between oneself and the target. that is because the warp drive as it is does not change the ships coordinates in spacetime, it merely warps coordinates around it to be closer or futher away from it. 

 

Edit: i should also note that the ship would not stay stationary of course, because to properly work, the drive would have to "elongate" the space behind the ship to bring the total energy back to the zero point, so from the outside, even without the conventional propulsion, the ship would seem to be moving.

[The Riddlesmith]

One uses an ion drive (or really whatever kind of conventional engine) to traverse the now shortened space between oneself and the target. that is because the warp drive as it is does not change the ships coordinates in spacetime, it merely warps coordinates around it to be closer or futher away from it. 

Interesting, so the propulsion system would not have to emit too much thrust? I'm assuming this only because NASA has used ion engines in the past, the Dawn probe being a prime example. I suppose that the mechanism that expands and contracts space-time would be doing most of the work in any case. Would a more powerful engine or array mean faster travel?    

It's nice to see NASA looking at more elegant ways of traveling to another star. This is a far cry better than Project Orion. Detonating nuclear bombs behind a craft isn't exactly sexy. 

[LukaP]

Interesting, so the propulsion system would not have to emit too much thrust? I'm assuming this only because NASA has used ion engines in the past, the Dawn probe being a prime example. I suppose that the mechanism that expands and contracts space-time would be doing most of the work in any case. Would a more powerful engine or array mean faster travel?    

It's nice to see NASA looking at more elegant ways of traveling to another star. This is a far cry better than Project Orion. Detonating nuclear bombs behind a craft isn't exactly sexy. 

Well a more powerful engine would of course mean faster travel through the compressed space, but if that space is compressed to a high degree, it really doesnt matter if it takes you 1 day or 2 days to travel to a different part of the galaxy

 

Well Orion was cool from a technical standpoint, but never really feasible. waaay too many things could go wrong on a journey as long as interstellar journeys are....

[Sunako]

Luka a better way to explain this would be while inside a warp field you would observe a

contraction or in other words a area of low pressure of space in the direction of travel. Pulling

the craft forward and and expansion an are of higher pressure behind pushing the back end

of the the field. From the outside  If you were able to observe this craft it would look to 

elongate during the duration of motion to the point it was just a line from point A to point B.

But  because it moves in warp field time dilation doesn't occur we are keeping a stable part

around the craft.

 

   As for some of the parts of the effects of  FLT on human bodies. Warp drives would not

have the same effects as accelerating to c. Matter can not travel at c only energy can.

Basically space and time are made of a fluid very low in viscosity but there is still something

there. Only particles moving as waves can move above c because they pass right thru most

matter and space. Some particles are even believed to pop in and out of this dimensional

plane.   The negative effects that warp drive might have on humans or any types of life might 

be different types of radiation or unseen factors we have yet to understand or see.

[The Riddlesmith]

Well a more powerful engine would of course mean faster travel through the compressed space, but if that space is compressed to a high degree, it really doesnt matter if it takes you 1 day or 2 days to travel to a different part of the galaxy

 

Well Orion was cool from a technical standpoint, but never really feasible. waaay too many things could go wrong on a journey as long as interstellar journeys are....

I'm impatient as all hell. If a couple more quadrillion horsepower will get me there before I have to sit in interstellar traffic, I'm going with a bigger engine.  :lol:

 

I'm not sure what could go wrong with a system like Orion's. (The fact that you are exploding reeaaallllyyyy big bombs behind your pressurized tin can not withstanding.) I'd think that you'd only need to fire things up in order to break orbit and to begin moving in the direction you're headed in. Chemical rockets could handle directional control. The only issue I can think of would be "How in the hell are we supposed to stop this thing!?!" Would there be another detonation disk at the front of the craft? If so, then rather than dropping the bombs from the disk, we'd need to use rockets to propel them far enough in front of the craft as to not damage it in the explosions.

[LukaP]

Luka a better way to explain this would be while inside a warp field you would observe a

contraction or in other words a area of low pressure of space in the direction of travel. Pulling

the craft forward and and expansion an are of higher pressure behind pushing the back end

of the the field. From the outside  If you were able to observe this craft it would look to 

elongate during the duration of motion to the point it was just a line from point A to point B.

But  because it moves in warp field time dilation doesn't occur we are keeping a stable part

around the craft.

 

   As for some of the parts of the effects of  FLT on human bodies. Warp drives would not

have the same effects as accelerating to c. Matter can not travel at c only energy can.

Basically space and time are made of a fluid very low in viscosity but there is still something

there. Only particles moving as waves can move above c because they pass right thru most

matter and space. Some particles are even believed to pop in and out of this dimensional

plane.   The negative effects that warp drive might have on humans or any types of life might 

be different types of radiation or unseen factors we have yet to understand or see.

yeah one can use pressure as an analogy to this.

 

a more accurate representation would be foam, for spacetime yeah most of this is true, but in a very simplified manner. Everything can travel as a wave, every single particle. one just has to observe it at the right circumstances. This popping you are reffering to is the zero point quantum energy, or energy of a vacuum. It comes from the heisenberg uncertainty principle, so even in a vacuum there is some uncertainty of location versus momentum.

 

It is the driving force behind black hole radiation described by hawking, and some other effects feynman & co described.

[Sunako]

   You don't need a more powerful engine or ion drive when your using a warp

drive the limiting factor on how far and how fast you can travel if your power

limitations. Propulsion Used while inside a warp field will not lead to any thrust

your field will just move no velocity change. 

[LukaP]

I'm impatient as all hell. If a couple more quadrillion horsepower will get me there before I have to sit in interstellar traffic, I'm going with a bigger engine.  :lol:

 

I'm not sure what could go wrong with a system like Orion's. (The fact that you are exploding reeaaallllyyyy big bombs behind your pressurized tin can not withstanding.) I'd think that you'd only need to fire things up in order to break orbit and to begin moving in the direction you're headed in. Chemical rockets could handle directional control. The only issue I can think of would be "How in the hell are we supposed to stop this thing!?!" Would there be another detonation disk at the front of the craft? If so, then rather than dropping the bombs from the disk, we'd need to use rockets to propel them far enough in front of the craft as to not damage it in the explosions.

The bigger the engine the worse the efficiency for going far you want efficiency

 

Well apart from the obvious nuclear radiation problems, its a good solution. very efficient. 

 

You never break orbit in space, you just orbit around a different thing. first you orbit around the earth, then you break that orbit and orbit around the sun, then you break that and orbit around whatever the fuck has lots of mass there, might already be the center of the galaxy. then you keep doing orbital manouvers to move yourself. only the warp drive can really forget about orbits and go in a straight line.

 

for stopping, there is an orbital manouver called a suicide burn. basically you thrust 100% towards your target (which is inefficient but fast) until youre at some point that is calculated beforehand. then you do a 180 turn and start breaking hard, until you land softly on your target

[LukaP]

   You don't need a more powerful engine or ion drive when your using a warp

drive the limiting factor on how far and how fast you can travel if your power

limitations. Propulsion Used while inside a warp field will not lead to any thrust

your field will just move no velocity change. 

no. you wont move. you jsut warp the space to almost a zero distance. (with this implementation of the warp drive). 

 

There is another possible version that also moves you, but that one takes more energy than we can currently create

[Sunako]

No that is incorrect luka the  field is being held stationary because the energy used

in the test in so low there is no measurable thrust. The time shift they observe for the

photon traveling thru the field is along the lines of gravitational lensing.

 

  We need to see the test in zero-g and a vacuum to assume we can even create the

type of warp field you suggest of folding or compressing space. That is much higher

energy requirements then the contracting and expanding space for thrust. The 

Compressing / folding of space you refer to is much more close to that of a worm 

whole and light hole. Theoretically you can bring two points closer together in space

with warp and gravitational fields but unable to travel that way without more energy than

is available within reason you would need a singularity / blackhole's energy to open that  

method of travel. 

[marldorthegreat]

ohh man, if this is true, IF NASA created a warp field by accident it shows yet again that the greatest discoveries are closley related to accidents or just side effects.

 

 

more serious:

 

with the ability to travel faster then the speed of light, i guess we should be sure of the fact that our bodies and tech are able to handle it because admit it, FTL seems like a very nice and interesting thing to have, but since our bodies already got trouble with 0 gravity or the force's on our bodies what are included with reaching the 0 gravity point(outer/outside athmosphere) and imagine what would happen with all atoms, molecule's and their bonds when basicly fired away FTL i truelly doubt that we are able to make use of FTL travel without negative effects on our bodies.

So FTL travel might be a way to discover the galaxy/universe with robots and drone's alike, but when it comes to going there ourselves there will be a major problem, unless ofcourse there comes a solution to that(cryo sleep?) so until that point i doubt humanity will be able to leave the solarsystem and explore the galaxy.

Its not travelling "faster than light" The space ship would move relativly slowly and space is warped around the ship. The effect on the human body will probably be from the fuel source or generator, and not the actual "FTL" movement

[PlayModeOn]

Maybe we can finally meet some Turians, Asari and Salarians.....in 200 years.

[Commander Llama]

So let me get this straight: a vaguely science news website I've never heard of posted some stuff about NASA making a warp bubble based on some data from NASA EM Drive experiments, itself based on some forum posts (however technical).

 

So this could only get less credible if it was posted by a Kardashian?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for warp drives and I'm definitely all for their accidental discovery, but this should trigger every single "citation needed" "cautious optimism" neuron in your brain to fire at the same time.

[Bouzoo]

We got Boeing patenting "Star Wars" shields, now it's NASA with Mass Effect/Star Trek Warp Field. I can see where this is going, and dis gon b gud

[DevilishBooster]

Here is the main article. http://www.cnet.com/news/nasa-tests-physics-defying-method-of-space-travel-em-drive/

There is a lot more information at this page, and I would strongly encourage everyone to read the whole thing. http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2015/04/evaluating-nasas-futuristic-em-drive/

The science behind the EM drive is, well, complicated to say the least, but the basic idea is to convert electrical energy into thrust without propellant (the fuel in rockets), which should be impossible becuase it violates the law of conservation of momentum.

Scientists from the US, UK, and China have demonstrated the EM drive over the past 15 years or so, but it's been controversial, since as mentioned above, the EM drive would seem to violate classical physics. NASA's tests in conditions that mimic outer space, however, bring a new sense of possibility to electromagnetic propulsion.

 

Needless to say, this is more than mind-blowing-freaking-awesome! While NASA is not making much ado about this because there is still a lot of testing and development to be done, they have confirmed that the tests were successful. 

 

After consistent reports of thrust measurements from the EM Drive experiments in the US, UK, and China - at thrust levels several thousand times in excess of a photon rocket, and now under hard vacuum conditions - the question is of where the thrust is coming from deserves serious inquiry. 

The anticipated uses for this new technology is everything ranging from sustained Low Earth Orbit and Geosynchronous Orbit,

For a typical geistationary communications satellite with a 6kW (kilowatt) solar power capacity, replacing the conventional apogee engine, attitude thrusters, and propellant volume with an EM Drive would result in a reduction of the launch mass from 3 tons to 1.3 tons.

to power flights from the Earth's surface to the moon in just 4 hours!

Moving out from LEO, MR March, from NASA EagleWorks, noted that a spacecraft equipped with EM drive technology could surpass the performance expectations of the WarpStar-I concept vehicle.

If such a similar vehicle were equipped with an EM Drive, it could enable travel from the surface of the Earth to the surface of the moon within four hours.

I cannot wait to see how fast and where this technology progresses to!! Imagine what it could do to boost commercial flights to the moon!

[blackadder]

no, we haven't even scratched the surface of what real physics is, we are also magnitudes away from having the energy need to really do this last time i saw some math. 

ever heard of the Orion project?

edit, ^ this may not apply i rushed to judgement and said something stupid, i was thinking this was like the post earlier about the wrap drive.  ok nvm its similar, i want to see some math on this. 

 Prof. Yang offered no scientifically-accepted explanation as to how the EM Drive can produce propulsion in space.

[DevilishBooster]

no, we haven't even scratched the surface of what real physics is, we are also magnitudes away from having the energy need to really do this last time i saw some math. 

If you read the article, we actually have already made good progress towards the energy production capabilities needed. 

Specifically, a useful EM Drive for space travel would need a nuclear power plant of 1.0 MWe (Megawatts-electric) to 100 MWe.

While that sounds significant, the U.S. Navy currently builds 220MW-thermal reactors for its "Boomer" Ohio class ICBM vehicles.

[blackadder]

If you read the article, we actually have already made good progress towards the energy production capabilities needed. 

thats a big reactor. currently its around a million per kilo if you want to get into space but, dropping. im still reading and looking into this. we just arent going to get free delta v. 

[DevilishBooster]

thats a big reactor. currently its around a million per kilo you want to get into space but, dropping. 

I know that's a big reactor, but it still doesn't change the fact that we have been making significant breakthroughs in propulsion technology, so I don't imagine it's going to be too long (see: hundreds of years) before we will be able to produce the powerplants needed. 

[blackadder]

I know that's a big reactor, but it still doesn't change the fact that we have been making significant breakthroughs in propulsion technology, so I don't imagine it's going to be too long (see: hundreds of years) before we will be able to produce the powerplants needed. 

we can only get so much out of nuclear reactions, fusion or fission. it also looks like we arent going to get nearly the energy output from fusion as we hoped to being as they prefer neutrinos to get rid or their excess energy. granted we can and should make these things much lighter in the future shielding goes into it and all kinds of other things, material science needs to play catch up. really check out the orion project, thats completely scale able, we can lift off a continent if we make it big enough.  check out the delta v needed for you to travel to our nearest star (besides the sun)

[DevilishBooster]

we can only get so much out of nuclear reactions, fusion or fission. it also looks like we arent going to get nearly the energy output from fusion as we hoped to being as they prefer neutrinos to get rid or their excess energy. granted we can and should make these things much lighter in the future shielding goes into it and all kinds of other things, material science needs to play catch up. really check out the orion project, thats completely scale able, we can lift off a continent if we make it big enough.  check out the delta v needed for you to travel to our nearest star (besides the sun)

Even so, don't get hung up on the power production just yet. That will come with time. The fact that the drive works, and works so well, is amazing. It's a huge step forward.

[blackadder]

Even so, don't get hung up on the power production just yet. That will come with time. The fact that the drive works, and works so well, is amazing. It's a huge step forward.

i wouldn't hold my breathe, i have seen many of these things come and go, when they release a real study and its verified by independent labs i give it some credit. they didn't even say what simga this is. i mean i trust nasa more than most but give me a sigma 4 or something.  im not worried about the power per say, we can make a dyson ball. it the distance that scares me. so much delta v, so much time. so much space....