Toyota's new hydrogen sedan will be on sale next year for $57,500, free fuel for 3 years

[BloodySinner]

Their not fighting so it's all good. I just think they should post relevant sourced information for this. 

 

Agreed!

 

Guys, please don't do this.... 

 

It must be done.

 

Yeah right. It's a freaking Japanese truck of course it would have good gas mileage, you probably got an untrustworthy source. Plus, it can still tow a 5th wheel fine.

 

Nope. Sorry. It's the worst in the truck segment.

 

*2014 Toyota Tundra: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/2014_Toyota_Tundra.shtml

 

2014 Ford F-150: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/2014_Ford_F150_Pickup.shtml

 

2014 GMC Sierra: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/2014_GMC_Sierra.shtml

 

2014: Chevrolet Silverado: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/2014_Chevrolet_Silverado.shtml

 

2014 Ram 1500: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/FEG/bymake/Ram2014.shtml

 

Those are only just the 2014 models. What makes this even worse is that Toyota literally used the same engine from the prior years and called this 'new'.

[bcredeur97]

i hear it only goes one speed though. SLOW.

 

ill pass

 

jk, should be a good car if u have a place near u to fill it up with hydrogen. should be reliable too since hydrogen burns so cleanly... that engine will probably last forever (figuratively not literal)

 

I approve. though if i had the money i wouldnt buy one.

[AlexStriz]

It must be done.

Well, If you must 

 

Whatever you two end deciding, these are my kinda trucks:

 

[Toxiguana]

But it's Hydrogen. The most plentiful element ever.

Hydrogen can be separated by water.  However the process of doing so requires sending a high amount of electric current through water in a process known as electrolysis.  It seems that it would be take more energy to harvest hydrogen than it would to charge an electric car.

[rashdanml]

What I meant was the process of putting that energy into a cell is higher than the energy a cell can output. As of now we don't have tons of hydro plants making fuel cells lol. Plus I don't remember correctly but one of the materials used for making the battery cells is really hard to obtain or has some sorta negative effect to the environment. 

1) Depends on a lot of factors (namely rate of production or consumption), but for any given rate, electrolysis of water requires the same amount of energy that the cell can output at that rate of consumption. The problem is, right now, water isn't being used as a source of hydrogen. The energy requirement and output is just basic chemistry - you apply a certain voltage to produce hydrogen, and when you combine hydrogen and oxygen, you get that same voltage out. However, as you try to force the reaction to occur faster, your current output is lower when combining hydrogen and oxygen, so your power output is lower. Making the reaction go faster increases power losses too (through both voltage and current losses).*

 

2) Hard to obtain, yes; harmful to environment, not really. Platinum is that material, it's used to make the reaction happen (catalyst), and it's the best one available, the alternatives come nowhere close to the required efficiency. It competes with the jewelery industry, hence the added cost. 

 

Long term, Hydro/Solar + electrolysis is the best option for mass production of hydrogen, assuming storage issues are worked out. Like I said, Hydrogen production isn't the problem (we have unlimited energy to throw at it through renewables), hydrogen storage is. 

 

* I've seen a fuel cell demo setup which runs infinitely. A small light source powers a solar panel, which produces electricity to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. The gases are separated, and piped into the fuel cell, where they're combined and used to power a small light bulb. The re-combined water is then fed back to the start where it's re-electrolysed. It's only a proof of concept, but it can run indefinitely. Theoretically, you can use the same fuel cell powered light source to split water. The reason it doesn't work in cars though, is that solar power needs larger surface area, so producing it on-demand on cars is not efficient, and it's better to be offloaded to power plants. 

[SirSquid]

A hydrogen Wankel? lol. Mazda make this now

Mazda has had countless concept cars running a hydrogen wankel engine but yet no consumer versions. Mazda has a little page on it here. http://www.mazda.com/stories/rotary/hre/history/index.html

[AlexStriz]

Mazda has had countless concept cars running a hydrogen wankel engine but yet no consumer versions. Mazda has a little page on it here. http://www.mazda.com/stories/rotary/hre/history/index.html

Whaaat

 

[ionbasa]

Interesting tech, but I get this feeling that hydrogen isn't going to be viable. Just the process of converting it requires more energy than it produces. 

 

I'll stick with Solar Panels and a Tesla made car.

Erm, nowadays we use metals (Alkali Metals) and that react with water to produce hydrogen. I'm nost claiming Toyota's car will use the same principles found here: http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Inorganic_Chemistry/Descriptive_Chemistry/Main_Group_Reactions/Reactions_of_Main_Group_Elements_with_Water

 

But, using metals, is really the way to go nowadays, some companies have even started making a business out of it.

It really is more efficient to drop a chunk of metal in a tank and have it produce hydrogen and hydroxide. The hydroxide can then be recycled, and reclaimed into water.

[Fred Castellum]

Erm, nowadays we use metals (Alkali Metals) and that react with water to produce hydrogen. I'm nost claiming Toyota's car will use the same principles found here: http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Inorganic_Chemistry/Descriptive_Chemistry/Main_Group_Reactions/Reactions_of_Main_Group_Elements_with_Water

 

But, using metals, is really the way to go nowadays, some companies have even started making a business out of it.

It really is more efficient to drop a chunk of metal in a tank and have it produce hydrogen and hydroxide. The hydroxide can then be recycled, and reclaimed into water.

Take a gander at the other posts in the thread. I'm aware

[Opcode]

I'd blow it up in a week of driving it. Call me old fashion but I can't stand foreign motor companies, they don't make em like we do here in the USA.

 

Yes I know Toyota does have a branch in USA now, but it's still nothing more than a foreign car company.

 

Cars are honestly the only thing any real man (including geeks/nerds) don't want technology involved with.

[shadowblitz3]

still way out of my reach

[ionbasa]

Take a gander at the other posts in the thread. I'm aware

Ahh, sorry. Must have missed it. Are you reffering to:

Actually, water to hydrogen requires the same amount of energy produced by hydrogen + oxygen to water. 

The best option is to use renewable energy like hydro to electrolyse water into hydrogen. The water makes it back to the environment when it's recombined by the fuel cell car. Right now, natural gas is being used, but it's not sustainable. 

 

The problem with hydrogen isn't production, it's storage. Pressurized gas tanks (painful process to pressurize) or liquid hydrogen (painful to liquefy). 

 

That said, electric cars are more logical, as it takes advantage of existing grid infrastructure. Fuel cell cars will need hydrogen refueling stations to be built as densely as gas stations, or include a hydrogen portion in gas stations. Suffice to say that oil/gas companies might take issue with that.

That still makes use of electricity though. With a chemical reaction, like with alkali earth metals, no electricity would be required. The only thing needed would be to replace a chunk of metal in a reservoir, or better yet, have it sold and dispensed as metal pellets, so the end user can do it themselves.

The energy in these types of reactions are exothermic, meaning, that they give off more energy than needed to start the reaction. Hell, you could make it even more efficient by using catalysts to lower the activation energy of the reaction. To give you an idea, this is what the reaction between magnesium and water looks like:

Mg (s) + 2H2O(g) -> Mg(OH)2(aq) + H2(g)

and can cause this massive release of energy (in the form of hydrogen) with little to know energy required to start the reaction.

[Fred Castellum]

-snip-

Indeed I am.

[bomerr]

Don't believe it.

 

Fuel Cell vehicles have been a diversion for years and considering the main catalyst is platinum I don't see how they can sell it for 1/5th of the cost of other fuel cell vehicles. 

[ionbasa]

Indeed I am.

Needless to say, the method I outlined uses no electricity. You'd only be needing to pay for the metal and the water. No charging or plugging in required.

 

 

Don't believe it.

 

Fuel Cell vehicles have been a diversion for years and considering the main catalyst is platinum I don't see how they can sell it for 1/5th of the cost of other fuel cell vehicles. 

In electrolysis, yes. But in a reaction based cell, no.

[Fred Castellum]

Needless to say, the method I outlined uses no electricity. You'd only be needing to pay for the metal and the water. No charging or plugging in required.

How about the possible monetization of this? 

[ionbasa]

How about the possible monetization of this? 

Well, think about it. Any gas station would be able to sell calcium or magnesium pellets. Then fill up with water from home, or any gas station.

 

Metal manufacturers could reap profits, along with retailers willing to sell the fuel source (metal pellets).Technically speaking, a two liter bottle of cesium pellets could produce enough energy to last you a good while.

[bomerr]

Needless to say, the method I outlined uses no electricity. You'd only be needing to pay for the metal and the water. No charging or plugging in required.

 

 

In electrolysis, yes. But in a reaction based cell, no.

They say Toyota is using a new catalyst in their fuel cell engine that uses 85% less hydrogen.

[ionbasa]

They say Toyota is using an ew catalyst in their fuel cell engine that uses 85% less hydrogen.

That made no sense. Hydrogen is what is being produced, right? Also, I have no idea what the abbreviation "ew" means.

[brownninja97]

yeah they went a little too aggressive, this is like the zalman z11 of hybrids.

[bomerr]

That made no sense. Hydrogen is what is being produced, right? Also, I have no idea what the abbreviation "ew" means.

 

Electricity is being produced. 

 

Fuel-cell vehicles are kinda like hybrids except with a fuel-cell instead of a internal combustion engine. They make hydrogen outside the vehicle [which is an expense in it of it self] then pump it into the  vehicle and the platinum catalyist helps a chemical reaction take place that turns the hydrogen into water which in the process creates electricity to power the vehicle. 

[KamiKatze]

It is butt ugly!

[rashdanml]

Mg (s) + 2H2O(g) -> Mg(OH)2(aq) + H2(g)

and can cause this massive release of energy (in the form of hydrogen) with little to know energy required to start the reaction.

Problem: not sustainable. The current method of using natural gas is not sustainable. You can only use metal/natural gas for so long.

Electrolysis is. You use renewable energy (sustainable), using water (abundant sources of water on the planet), to produce hydrogen; when combined, you get the water back. As long as you keep using renewable energy, which never runs out, you'll never run out of water to produce hydrogen.

 

Yes, it still uses electricity, but when that source of electricity is limitless, it makes sense to use it. The goal isn't to eliminate the need to use electricity, it's to use sustainable sources of energy to produce hydrogen. 

 

Whatever alternative technology we come up with to replace gasoline HAS to be sustainable; if not, we're only prolonging the issue. Sooner or later we'll run out of gasoline/oil. Replacing that with something that requires metals or natural gas will eventually lead to a situation where both get depleted. It's better to stick to sustainable methods as a replacement, which will never run out.

[rashdanml]

Don't believe it.

 

Fuel Cell vehicles have been a diversion for years and considering the main catalyst is platinum I don't see how they can sell it for 1/5th of the cost of other fuel cell vehicles.

 

By finding ways to use as little platinum as possible, or by engineering a suitable substitute. The latter is more problematic, so a lot of research is being done into minimizing platinum use. Current fuel cells are paper-thin. The membrane where the reaction occurs is thinner, and that's where the platinum is deposited. You only need a small amount of platinum to get the reaction going, but it's difficult getting a thin layer of platinum on the membrane. 

[bomerr]

Problem: not sustainable. The current method of using natural gas is not sustainable. You can only use metal/natural gas for so long.

Electrolysis is. You use renewable energy (sustainable), using water (abundant sources of water on the planet), to produce hydrogen; when combined, you get the water back. As long as you keep using renewable energy, which never runs out, you'll never run out of water to produce hydrogen.

 

Yes, it still uses electricity, but when that source of electricity is limitless, it makes sense to use it. The goal isn't to eliminate the need to use electricity, it's to use sustainable sources of energy to produce hydrogen. 

 

Whatever alternative technology we come up with to replace gasoline HAS to be sustainable; if not, we're only prolonging the issue. Sooner or later we'll run out of gasoline/oil. Replacing that with something that requires metals or natural gas will eventually lead to a situation where both get depleted. It's better to stick to sustainable methods as a replacement, which will never run out.

Well the problem is they use the natural gas to create the hydrogen [using electricity]. 

Then they use the Hydrogen to create the electricity. 

 

It's just dumb, it's more efficient to simply create the electricity and call it a day. 

 

 

By finding ways to use as little platinum as possible, or by engineering a suitable substitute. The latter is more problematic, so a lot of research is being done into minimizing platinum use. Current fuel cells are paper-thin. The membrane where the reaction occurs is thinner, and that's where the platinum is deposited. You only need a small amount of platinum to get the reaction going, but it's difficult getting a thin layer of platinum on the membrane. 

Even if they accomplish it it'll be very difficult to scale up platinum to the point where vehicles cost $15,000 like Toyota's current Yaris.

 

There are other issues too but the main point is that fuel cell vehicles are a bad technology to invest in and the research is better spent on pure evs.