Queensland: Increase Solar Generation Causes Wholesale Electricity Price To Go Negative During Peak Hours

[wpirobotbuilder]

Last week, for the first time in memory, the wholesale price of electricity in Queensland fell into negative territory – in the middle of the day.

The price drops are reported as being caused by the influx of rooftop solar installations across much of the region.

 

“Negative pricing” moves, as they are known, are not uncommon. But they are only supposed to happen at night, when most of the population is mostly asleep, demand is down, and operators of coal fired generators are reluctant to switch off. So they pay others to pick up their output.

That's not supposed to happen at lunchtime. Daytime prices are supposed to reflect higher demand, when people are awake, office building are in use, factories are in production. That's when fossil fuel generators would normally be making most of their money.

 

What's most interesting is that the economics of coal-based energy production, even if it cost nothing to generate energy from coal, still aren't any better than that of solar energy, due to the distribution losses.

... let’s imagine that the wholesale price of electricity fell to zero and stayed there, and that the benefits were passed on to consumers. In effect, that coal-fired energy suddenly became free. Could it then compete with rooftop solar?

 

The answer is no. Just the network charges and the retailer charges alone add up to more than 19c/kWh, according to estimates by the Australian energy market commissioner.

 

The current response from power distributors is to prevent users from exporting surplus power to the grid, but they can install as much solar capacity as they want.

Network operators in Queensland, realising the pent up demand for rooftop solar, are now allowing customers to install as much as they want, on the condition that they don’t export surplus electricity back to the grid.

Households and businesses have little incentive to export excess power. They don't get paid much for it anyway. Ergon Energy admits that this will likely encourage households to install battery storage.

 

Source: The Guardian

 

I don't know much about the solar potential in Aus, but this is pretty impressive. There'll probably be some demand for coal-fired plants for a while, especially for industries which can't produce all of their power on-site.

[Bagmup]

Queensland is dependent on coal, pretty much the only industry in Queensland now that the bikers have been chased out of the state.  

[BloodWithIce]

Very nice, I own 8 solar panels myself producing between 8 and 11 Kw/h if I'm not mistaken. 

[qwertywarrior]

interesting

 

 

there is this one guy in england  (little wind not sun    )  who has a big battery  in the basement

what he does is charge it at night when the electricity is cheap and use the battery in the morning

saved him quite a bit of money

[Fred Castellum]

I'm dug into the solar industry in the US so I don't know too much about it elsewhere, I can safely say though Solar tech can definitely save you money in the long run and the tech itself is improving at a impressive rate.

 

 

interesting

 

 

there is this one guy in england  (little wind not sun      )  who has a big battery  in the basement

what he does is charge it at night when the electricity is cheap and use the battery in the morning

saved him quite a bit of money

 Smart bastard he is lol. 

[MetEishYa]

There'll probably be some demand for coal-fired plants for a while, especially for industries which can't produce all of their power on-site.

The iron and aluminium industry jumps to mind they small sized for the amount of power they draw when smelting and if people cant export then coal will live on.

 

This is awesome, yet here in South Africa like in Australia we have plenty of opposites for solar so what do we do in our electricity crisis, build 2 coal power stations, expected to be the largest dry-cooled coal-fired power stations in the world.  

 

Oh and just incase people wanted to know why they dont just shut down coal power stations at night is because they need huge amounts of power to start up again not to mention a cold start up can take upto 24 hours. 

[Jaybird]

I'd like someone with solar energy to post how much they are saving monthly and the initial cost as well as monthly maintiance cost. So far I have not been convinced that this is the way to go currently.

[dlf]

If I could build a house, it'd probably be 100 by 100 meters (more?) and the roof would have as many solar panels as possible as would the ground(s).  Also anyone from Canada have solar panels? Since I plan to eventually move up to Canada at some point and may (if possible) have solar panels on a existing house.

[onionring]

If I could build a house, it'd probably be 100 by 100 meters (more?) and the roof would have as many solar panels as possible as would the ground(s).  Also anyone from Canada have solar panels? Since I plan to eventually move up to Canada at some point and may (if possible) have solar panels on a existing house.

 

the snow is knid of a problem here, idk why but it reduces the effiency of the panels...

 

srsly, the electricity isnt that expensive (0.0557$ / kW/h) so solar panel arent rly worth it, and you would have to clear them during the winter.

 

it s possible but the advantages aren t that great here.

[Me1z]

the snow is knid of a problem here, idk why but it reduces the effiency of the panels...

 

srsly, the electricity isnt that expensive (0.0557$ / kW/h) so solar panel arent rly worth it, and you would have to clear them during the winter.

 

it s possible but the advantages aren t that great here.

 

Is electricity really that cheap in Canada? Where I live we regularly pay about $0.11 / kWh.....

[Bloodkil933]

Is electricity really that cheap in Canada? Where I live we regularly pay about $0.11 / kWh.....

 

You think yours is expensive, pay $0.3 per kWh here in the UK

[Me1z]

You think yours is expensive, pay $0.3 per kWh here in the UK

 

Isn't your gas(petrol) crazy expensive too? You'd think with these prices the UK would go all out into renewable energy sources. I don't know how you guys can afford anything.

[wpirobotbuilder]

Is electricity really that cheap in Canada? Where I live we regularly pay about $0.11 / kWh.....

They have a lot of falling water that allows them to install a butt load of hydro power.

[Bloodkil933]

Isn't your gas(petrol) crazy expensive too? You'd think with these prices the UK would go all out into renewable energy sources. I don't know how you guys can afford anything.

yeah, £1.30 a liter and about $10/gallon

[flibberdipper]

Our entire country would have to be covered in solar panels to make all of our power from them, since everyone in this damn country is wasteful.

[onionring]

Is electricity really that cheap in Canada? Where I live we regularly pay about $0.11 / kWh.....

 

yes it is, at least in Quebec, since the province owns the electricity company.

 

But, it was cheaper before they started going for wind turbines, idk why they even do that, the hydroelectricity is clean enough and cheaper and we have a surplus of electricity already...

 

source:

http://www.hydroquebec.com/residential/understanding-your-bill/rates/residential-rates/rate-d/

[dalekphalm]

Is electricity really that cheap in Canada? Where I live we regularly pay about $0.11 / kWh.....

Contrary to what people have said so far, the answer is "it depends on where you live", not an automatic "yes".

 

Many places in Canada have quite cheap electricity because there are highly developed hydro electric power stations in many places, and we also have very advanced Nuclear power stations in several Provinces. Canada exclusively uses the CANDU Reactor systems (Of course this could change in the future), of which there are 20 reactors in the Country. 1 of those is in New Brunswick, while the other 19 are all in Ontario. 2 of those reactors are currently decommissioned, but could be refurbished as needed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANDU_reactor

 

Also there are huge stretches of Wind farms, as there are many flat windy places in Canada.

[Panda689]

If you know Calgary weather you probably wouldn't even consider solar power

 

Also we pay about $0.05-$0.09/kWh.

[LegendKillerRG]

interesting

there is this one guy in england (little wind not sun ) who has a big battery in the basement

what he does is charge it at night when the electricity is cheap and use the battery in the morning

saved him quite a bit of money

What I learned is that people get charged more over night than day for electricity. Electricity is more expensive at night than the day in the US. During the day there is wind turbines(idk what they're called lol) that makes energy and solar panel to collect energy too so it makes sense to have electricity cheaper during the day because at night the energy source is dependence.

[dalekphalm]

What I learned is that people get charged more over night than day for electricity. Electricity is more expensive at night than the day in the US. During the day there is wind turbines(idk what they're called lol) that makes energy and solar panel to collect energy too so it makes sense to have electricity cheaper during the day because at night the energy source is dependence.

This may be true in some parts of the US, including where you live, but this is most certainly not a universal truth for the US, and definitely not for Canada.

 

Peak hours are the most expensive. That's 9 AM to 5 PM and like 7 to 9 PM (ish, it'll be slightly different per region). The reasons why?

1. AC during the summer and heating during the winter, especially for businesses and manufacturing, where people are at work mostly during the day.

2. People running most of their electronics during the peak hours. Most people are asleep after 10 PM, and therefore don't use as much electricity.

 

Here in Ontario (If you have a Smart Meter) and in many other places, the cheapest electricity is from 10 PM until early morning (Like 5 or 6 AM).

[rashdanml]

I'd like someone with solar energy to post how much they are saving monthly and the initial cost as well as monthly maintiance cost. So far I have not been convinced that this is the way to go currently.

With solar panels, the basic idea is: short term loss, long term gain. 

The biggest question is, when's the break even point? That depends on a lot of factors, but typically, you'd expect 10-15 years. Beyond that point, solar is always the most economical choice. Possible factors: cost of solar panels, amount of energy generated, household daily usage, government incentives from selling your electricity to the grid, etc. 

 

That's only if you focus on yourself. Switching to solar brings benefits to society as a whole. 

 

In British Columbia, specifically Vancouver, new houses are being built with geothermal and solar power connections built in, allowing the home owner to later retrofit the house for both. Both combined, despite the extra upfront cost, can result in huge savings in the long run.

 

The main issue though, is mindset. People are too focused on short term gain (and therefore, long term loss). Renewable energy is the opposite, and people are reluctant. It's the same reason electric cars, fuel cells, and other forms of renewable technology hasn't really kicked off yet: the target audience doesn't have the right mindset. 

[NInety]

I'd like someone with solar energy to post how much they are saving monthly and the initial cost as well as monthly maintiance cost. So far I have not been convinced that this is the way to go currently.

I don't know about solar, but geothermal heating and cooling cut my friends electric bill in half.

[Jaybird]

With solar panels, the basic idea is: short term loss, long term gain. 

The biggest question is, when's the break even point? That depends on a lot of factors, but typically, you'd expect 10-15 years. Beyond that point, solar is always the most economical choice. Possible factors: cost of solar panels, amount of energy generated, household daily usage, government incentives from selling your electricity to the grid, etc. 

 

That's only if you focus on yourself. Switching to solar brings benefits to society as a whole. 

 

In British Columbia, specifically Vancouver, new houses are being built with geothermal and solar power connections built in, allowing the home owner to later retrofit the house for both. Both combined, despite the extra upfront cost, can result in huge savings in the long run.

 

The main issue though, is mindset. People are too focused on short term gain (and therefore, long term loss). Renewable energy is the opposite, and people are reluctant. It's the same reason electric cars, fuel cells, and other forms of renewable technology hasn't really kicked off yet: the target audience doesn't have the right mindset. 

considering I havent staying in a place more than 2 years there is no benefit. 

[rashdanml]

considering I havent staying in a place more than 2 years there is no benefit. 

To you, yes, but it's a long term saving for everyone who passes through the house, combined over 10-15 years. 

Now, if every house you move to has solar, the benefit carries over to every house you move to. 

 

Individually, it's not economical. As a society/whole, it is. A self-centered mindset won't save the planet. 

[Jaybird]

To you, yes, but it's a long term saving for everyone who passes through the house, combined over 10-15 years. 

Now, if every house you move to has solar, the benefit carries over to every house you move to. 

 

Individually, it's not economical. As a society/whole, it is. A self-centered mindset won't save the planet. 

well I think the planet is doing a damn fine job of maintaining itself but im not in the mood to argue against global warming. maybe another time.