Yet again restricted military vehicle documents leak on the war thunder forums

[goodtofufriday]

Summary

 In what is the umpteenth time now, military personal have leaked documents in how their vehicles operate on the war thunder forums for the sake of correctness. 

This time for a ah-64 longbow apache.

 

The post was swiftly removed but of course not before plenty of people saw the document. 

 

It was argued that since the document wasn't classified it was fine, but as noted by other users the document is still restricted to the DOD and it's contractors only.

Quote

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Fireball_2020: that document says it is restricted to DoD members and contractors, making is distribution limited and therefore still against the rules.

My thoughts

 They might just want to restrict posting PDFs to the forums to make it a tad more difficult for the average guy to post documents. That forum is bound to get shutdown or already crawling with bots from other nations at this point that copy every second of every page hoping to capture documents like these.

 

Sources

 https://forum.warthunder.com/t/technical-manual-for-ah-64d-longbow-apache/27350

[Dedayog]

Hell, we've all known how the Apache works since C64 days!!!

 

See, cockpit design schematics...

 

 

[dizmo]

I really hope the people that post these get hunted down and prosecuted accordingly.

[Taf the Ghost]

The War Thunder forums are so notorious I've heard jokes in YT Videos only roughly in the mil-tech space. 

 

I kind of love that the Tech Nerds do these things. They shouldn't, but it'll never not be funny.

[Shreyas1]

1 hour ago, goodtofufriday said:

Summary

 In what may be the third or fourth time now

More like third or fourth time this month

[CarlBar]

3 hours ago, dizmo said:

I really hope the people that post these get hunted down and prosecuted accordingly.

 

So far of the various incidents only maybe one, (big maybe), involved active service personnel posting things. Everything else is various documents either publicly available or found elsewhere on the web being posted. I wouldn't be surprised to find that this PDF is another example, (like with the Typhoon manual, and the F-16, and F-15 manuals that all got posted), of something thats publicly available but isn't supposed to be shared outside a specific set of nations.

[StDragon]

"loose lips sink ships"

[tkitch]

it's funny cuz it's kinda true

[ToboRobot]

I think the flash card leaks are the funniest

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2021/05/28/us-soldiers-expose-nuclear-weapons-secrets-via-flashcard-apps/

[dizmo]

18 hours ago, CarlBar said:

 

So far of the various incidents only maybe one, (big maybe), involved active service personnel posting things. Everything else is various documents either publicly available or found elsewhere on the web being posted. I wouldn't be surprised to find that this PDF is another example, (like with the Typhoon manual, and the F-16, and F-15 manuals that all got posted), of something thats publicly available but isn't supposed to be shared outside a specific set of nations.

Where do you get that number from? A quick Google shows at least 10 classified information leaks.

[Fasterthannothing]

Lol this is kinda hilarious. But here is an interesting theory I have. What if the leaks are actually how hackers for other countries are getting their files to their intended recipient. Kinda of just lose themselves in the noise 

[ThousandBlade]

1 minute ago, Fasterthannothing said:

Lol this is kinda hilarious. But here is an interesting theory I have. What if the leaks are actually how hackers for other countries are getting their files to their intended recipient. Kinda of just lose themselves in the noise 

This is ducking brilliant

[Poinkachu]

25 minutes ago, Fasterthannothing said:

Lol this is kinda hilarious. But here is an interesting theory I have. What if the leaks are actually how hackers for other countries are getting their files to their intended recipient. Kinda of just lose themselves in the noise 

 

Why would the intended recipient, who most likely paid a ton of money wants the file to be spread to others who doesn't pay for it ?

 

I mean, if I am paying premium for something that is supposed to be "for me only", I'd be pissed if tomorrow the vendor gives it to everyone else for free. :x

Since now my "special item" lost some of it's value.

[CarlBar]

6 hours ago, dizmo said:

Where do you get that number from? A quick Google shows at least 10 classified information leaks.

 

Let me go through what i remember of the various incidents, i'm probably going to miss a few:

 

Leclerc Leaks: This involved someone sharing a video, can't remember if it was a French military release from an exercise and a manufacturer video from testing, (lots of manufacturers are involved in these stories, it gets confusing), showing the tanks turret doing a 360 spin. It did so much faster than the in game model can and thus was posted to show this was inaccurate. Gaijin declared that because it showed a value other than their made up one and because the full value was officially classified the video amounted to classified information and deleted it. 

 

Chinese APFSDS Leaks: These are of unknown source, they were dug up on a Chinese language site and had been circulating there for years apparently. The info is supposedly classified and these documents should not be out there, but the user who posted them was just a random using google and the ability to read Chinese to stumble across them.

 

Manual Leaks (F-16, F-15, Typhoon): Lumping these 3 together as they're all very similar. The first two were publicly available documents, (manufacturers website if i recall correctly), that are in a weird state where any US citizen civilian or otherwise can view them, but they can't legally be shared with anyone who isn't a US citizen. The poster was apparently unaware of this and just found them via google or another forum, (not clear which).

 

The Typhoon leak was similar except it has a "do not share outside NATO" classification and you have to pay to get it, but otherwise anyone can access it.

 

Challenger 2 Leaks: The most complex, hence why it's here are the end. The User was/is, (there's been zero news of any kind of prosecution on the matter, something i'd honestly expect the MoD to make a big song and dance about), a member of the UK armed forces involved with the CR2. He was according to his posts taking various photo's, video's, e.t.c. and modifying them to hide whatever the local intel section said couldn't be released. Then once that was done he was posting them to the forums. Eventually one specific incident set Gaijin off claiming they'd been told the document was still classified. It should be noted it happened within hours of the document being posted which would be extremly short for any kind of response from the MoD to a random query.

 

There's multiple variations of an explanation running the whole spectrum, in order from worst to best:

 

1. The user was lying about running things past the intel section and posting willy nilly.

2. The local Intel section exceeded their authority in clearing the document in question.

3. The MoD internal comms FUBAR'd and whoever Gaijin deals with didn't get the memo about the Intel section on base clearing it so Gaijin got a wrong answer when they asked.

4. Gaijin asked the wrong question, this was a single page from a larger manual that had been modified. Even if the MoD had cleared it for release and it was passed up the chain, if the MoD was asked about the whole unmodified manual they'd still say it was classified.

5. Gaijin flat out lied, (the info they were getting would have made the CR2 vastly overpowered).

 

 

There was at least one other incident from memory but i forget the details, i could dig up what it was about to jog my memory, but AFAIK everything has just been more of the same of either found on the web, or officially posted stuff that revels info not officially declassified.

[Beskamir]

At this point I'm inclined to consider war thunder to be a psyops.

[Sil3nt1]

You can learn how to start and takeoff with an F18

 

[williamcll]

12 minutes ago, Sil3nt1 said:

You can learn how to start and takeoff with an F18

 

I wished people would leak on DCS so we get some more immersive planes.

[Ydfhlx]

On 9/19/2023 at 7:19 PM, goodtofufriday said:

In what may be the third or fourth time now, military personal have leaked documents

It's at least 25th time. Yes, really.

[SpaceGhostC2C]

Budget cuts 101:

1. shut down your entire country's intelligence agency

2. open a War Thunder forum account

3. Profit

 

23 hours ago, Poinkachu said:

 

Why would the intended recipient, who most likely paid a ton of money wants the file to be spread to others who doesn't pay for it ?

 

I mean, if I am paying premium for something that is supposed to be "for me only", I'd be pissed if tomorrow the vendor gives it to everyone else for free. :x

Since now my "special item" lost some of it's value.

 

I don't think you have the right angle. The point is not for the information to be "for you only", the point is tat it was "certainly not for you" and now you have it. Keeping it from others, or keeping the fact that you now have it a secret, may or may not be a relevant concern, depending on the information being passed.

[Poinkachu]

13 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

Budget cuts 101:

1. shut down your entire country's intelligence agency

2. open a War Thunder forum account

3. Profit

 

 

I don't think you have the right angle. The point is not for the information to be "for you only", the point is tat it was "certainly not for you" and now you have it. Keeping it from others, or keeping the fact that you now have it a secret, may or may not be a relevant concern, depending on the information being passed.

That was a respond to this argument :

"What if the leaks are actually how hackers for other countries are getting their files to their intended recipient. Kinda of just lose themselves in the noise "

 

In that context, why would let's say Country Z's hackers obtaining classified data then giving it to -supposedly- Country Z through a public forum, where Country A to Y might be lurking as well.

 

If that's what Country Z wants, then honestly that must be the dumbest country. Since it might hold some bargaining value when dealing with Country A to X.

Not to mention that now the Victim Country knows about the leak, they might do some changes if there's a supposed weakness point described in the data.

 

Although it may also "Victim" own ploy to spread misinformation.

[SpaceGhostC2C]

 First, I don't think anyone is seriously considering War Thunder leaks as actual espionage. I hope you aren't either.

Second, back to Hypotheticaland:

4 minutes ago, Poinkachu said:

 

 

 

In that context, why would let's say Country Z's hackers obtaining classified data then giving it to -supposedly- Country Z through a public forum, where Country A to Y might be lurking as well.

I already explained that in the post you quoted: Z needs the information, need it to travel without blowing cover, and only cares about having it. Once it has it, it makes no difference if whether the victim is aware of it, and there's no value in country A also having it. In such scenario, it's as good as any other alternative. Once lack of awareness or hiding it from A matters, then it's no longer a viable route. It's rather straightforward.

[Poinkachu]

8 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

 First, I don't think anyone is seriously considering War Thunder leaks as actual espionage. I hope you aren't either.

I'm not.

 

Quote

I already explained that in the post you quoted: Z needs the information, need it to travel without blowing cover, and only cares about having it. Once it has it, it makes no difference if whether the victim is aware of it, and there's no value in country A also having it. In such scenario, it's as good as any other alternative. Once lack of awareness or hiding it from A matters, then it's no longer a viable route. It's rather straightforward.

My point was :

I'm pretty sure there is a shit ton of way to deliver that safely without needing to go through public forum.

For example : Since when airport checks the data inside every data storage device ?

[SpaceGhostC2C]

1 minute ago, Poinkachu said:

For example : Since when airport checks the data inside every portable storage device ?

Now you have a person traveling from A to B. Is it the person obtaining the data? If not, is there a physical handover of the data to another person? Each step are more tracks to cover. Now you're dealing with 100-year old espionage problems. Come to think about it, 100 years ago spies would use public media to send messages as well, although usually coded since one of my conditions (awareness is not a problem) typically didn't hold.

[Poinkachu]

1 minute ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

Now you have a person traveling from A to B. Is it the person obtaining the data? If not, is there a physical handover of the data to another person? Each step are more tracks to cover. Now you're dealing with 100-year old espionage problems. Come to think about it, 100 years ago spies would use public media to send messages as well, although usually coded since one of my conditions (awareness is not a problem) typically didn't hold.

 

Coded message in a public forum, I can accept.

 

Giving supposedly hacked classified data through Twitter to "lose it in the noise" , sure I might be able to accept that, that's a shit ton of people that might look at it, retweet it, save & repost it neverendingly. Still kinda dumb IMO, but okay.

 

Specifically through War Thunder forum while there's seriously many other places & methods ? no. What? did WT forum got some super safe anonimity protection or something?

 

All this supposing the hacker obtains the data while living in san francisco or something instead of from their home country. I guess ?

 

 

[SansVarnic]

-= Moved to GD =-

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