Gamers Nexus alleges LMG has insufficient ethics and integrity

[drcheeseman]

I love Linus Media Group, the products they have engineered and developed, etc. I also am very sympathetic to all of Steve's comments. The quality of content seems to have become more and more sloppy over time. Maybe instead of stepping down as CEO because Linus couldn't keep up, he should've slowed things down to keep quality and control of his goals. In any case, I don't see how this doesn't end with a formal apology to Steve. There are so many good people at LMG that I enjoy watching every day and this seems like a huge misstep that needs correcting. Make the company match the vision again; Steve pointed out some very objective points and this reaction has me questioning whether I should stay subscribed since Steve's comments reflect my own impressions on the quality of content over time.

 

Wish LMG the best either way. Please do the right thing in response to Steve's comments.

[Skipple]

10 minutes ago, jitteryzeitgeist said:

If it is unsolicited, which I'm not sure it is since Billet made a Reddit post several months ago pointed directly at LTT asking if they wanted to "play with it."

...right so back to your original point: 

  

25 minutes ago, jitteryzeitgeist said:

God listening to people who have clearly never been involved in business talk about it like they're borrowing shit from their friends is painful.

It sounds like "borrowing shit from their friends" may be exactly what happened here. 

To be clear: this certainly doesn't absolve LMG of responsibility. I think it's rude and wrong to give away something that isn't yours, regardless of a B2B relationship or a friend. I'm just trying to figure out if this is the norm for companies to do business dealings in this way or not. 

[xg32]

4 minutes ago, Icedman181 said:

Agreed. The billet labs issue might be a touchstone event but the selling of it was probably a procedural error handled poorly after. A one-off.

 

The truly concerning part is the systemic errors and rushed content leading to compounding cycles of bad, inaccurate content. LMG can fix it but only if they acknowledge the true scope without the knee-jerk emotional response.

As long as billet gets compensated, i'm more concerned about a lab employee firing shots at GN/HUB unprovoked who could have led to this whole debacle. The accuracy/technical problems with benchmarks are a watch/don't watch problem for me.

[DrHax34]

4 minutes ago, SethNW said:

This is sad day, because, oh, how mighty have fallen. I was going initially write a rant to get myself banned and all, but I won't. Because you need to have some worth to be worth me bothering. This this situation and handling, is so low quality level that we got word for it that I won't speak. All this needed was for someone to take a day, write well thought response in how thing will be handled and apologize and that is it. It however highlighted disconnect between what LTT wanted to be years ago and what they are now, views driven corporation that figuratively is willing to walk over corpses to make profits and get more views. Without second thought about consumer, or anything else. And I recommended people to go to LTT. Out of all things, I don't really care if LTT collapses or not, I don't care about Linus, I do however care that I did send some people over to LTT thinking I am sending them to a good channel that cares about data accuracy, morals, or anything other than growth.

So I will just say one thing, I am disappointed.

 

And to those I told to go to LTT, I am sorry for leading you astray.

 

Ban me if you will, I am not coming back.

Did you literally create an account 10 minutes ago just to say that? You know this is just spam on a real discussion right?

[HiTechLowSpec]

20 minutes ago, ZombieMan762 said:

 

What's disturbing about that attitude is Linus is presuming he knows what is best for his viewers. People like to build PC's with parts that don't make financial sense. Linus has made a name for himself with ridiculous builds that don't make financial sense such as the $100,000 desk PC video they just did. So, it's ok for Linus to make money off producing content on products that don't make financial sense but thinks his viewers don't need to know if a product even works or not because he had already made up his mind no one should buy the water block so it didn't even deserve using the right parts in the review. Just pure arrogance and disregard for everyone involved from Billet Labs to viewers. 

Would you put $800 into making your 3090 maybe go a little faster, or would you put that toward a 4090 and make it even faster? You can do whatever you want with your money, but logic dictates that I'm going for the 4090, even on air.

[K4shira]

15 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Linus still represents LMG and is being the the face of LMG, unless he plans on handing over the job of CEO, and having someone else manage the PR then Linus is partly to blame and should publicly apologize for the Billet block issue.

Well if Linus though it wasn't worth $800 then why was it even accepted for review?

Also overclockers and enthusiasts spend way more than $800 on hardware, a full custom water cooling loop with glass or copper tubing isn't worth $1000, but that is what some of them cost because people buy them.

 

That is a great point. There are actually people willing to pay that price for hardware. But probably not if the hardware sucks. For Linus it may not matter how well the block performs as that is not a factor in his opinion, but for the potential niche customer that Billet Labs tries to attract it sure does matter.

 

[Monolithic]

4 minutes ago, HiTechLowSpec said:

Because he knows he's ultimately responsible. That doesn't mean he's directly responsible.

So "He is responsible, but he is not responsible" is your response? huh....

[saintlouisbagels]

Just now, xg32 said:

The accuracy/technical problems with benchmarks are a watch/don't watch problem for me.

Literally the majority of GN's video is about these problems.

The concerns brought up in his video exist regardless of the LMG employee's off-hand comment.

[Guest]

I am so shocked people are not seeing the full picture here. Has LMG been having accuracy issues over the past lets say year? Yes 100 percent. This was addressed even in one of the last WAN shows when they were talking about using some floatplane members to help with fact checking. This is not new info. Linus has talked about this at length over the past several months. They do need to do better but damn, Linus was right about everyone with there pitchforks. You telling me that not 90 percent of other creators don't make slimier mistakes. Its really the pot calling the kettle black.

 

The situation with Billet is unfortunate however, we do not know the whole story. As far as the review, I think Linus was 100 percent right. Nothing would have changed the outcome of the video. Should they have done the extra testing on a proper graphics card, yes but Linus was right but not wasting anyone else's time for a product that they were never going to recommend to buy. People are getting really mad about that point, like LTT was trying to ruin a small company. That is just dead wrong. The company did not have a real product yet. Linus wanted them to make a good product. This was not it. No additional testing was going to fix that.

 

Now for the auctioning off the unit, that was not good. However I will say this stuff happens all the time. An ex employer of mine accidentally sold $150,000 worth of copiers in our warehouse that did not belong to them but rather a client of ours. No one realized it until the client wanted one of there copiers. Then we had to tell our client and send them a nice fat check of $150,000. Should this of happened? Of course not. But in the real world, business make mistakes. It takes one person to make a mistake to affect the whole company. Anyone that has worked for a company with more than 50 people knows how it can be. If LTT pays Billet then problem solved. People are freaking out way to much about this.

 

Last point I want to make is about the GN video. I watched the main video twice and the follow up video today and what I see come out of it is smugness and jealousy. I always liked GN but I lost complete respect for them how they had acted in this situation. They handpicked issues and completely ignored context around many of thouse said issues to paint there narrative. Steve said its his job to ignore personal relationships, however no one can watch the video yesterday but especially the follow up today and say Steve does not have a personal issue with Linus. His entire demeanor and attitude in both videos was not professional and simply uncalled for. If he wanted to make a purely fact based video on LTT issues, I would no problem with that, but making an obvious hit piece with extreme biased is not. Also one thing I was shocked to see Steve not understand is the whole selling vs auctioning it off to charity thing with Billet. Neither is good but saying that auctioning it off to charity is worse is just wrong. Not sure how much it was auctioned off for or what charity got the money, but said that to someone who actually gets to benefit from that money. I know many people here have been disagreeing about this but the biggest issue to me is that GN never reached out to Linus or LMG for a comment. There is no professional media that does not reach out for a comment before a story like this. I am not saying anything in the story would have changed or even should have changed, but being able to read a response in the video would have made it look to be a touch not as biased. That both sides of the story were being told. That is the whole point of having journalistic standards. Also GN did monetize there video today and gained tons of extra views and subs over this whole thing. They have a financial dog in this fight as well even if they say they don't.

 

I am not a super fan of LTT. I have gone years without watching and come back for a video here and there. I am not going to say everything they do is right but people need to put the pitchforks down and see the full picture. People are going way to hard on Linus and praising Steve as a hero when I really think Steve should not only issue an apology but a retraction to both videos on many of the falsehoods that were said. Linus has proved to us more time than I can count that he has our back. I am not saying you should trust anyone on the internet, but Linus has never actually screwed over his viewers. I don't want to see this situation change Linus because even though that is what everyone says they want, it is not.

 

To Linus - If you happen to ever see this message, do not let this change you. You still be you. Do not just bend over and take the abusive. Stand up for yourself and your company. Admit on what you have done wrong but also fight back on things that are just not true. The second you change who you are, then none of this is worth doing anymore. And lastly, please either do a full video about this, or do talk about it on the WAN show. I feel like the worst thing in your comment you made yesterday is that you were not going to discuss it. This should be discussed.

[tbonedude]

4 minutes ago, JoshuaScholar said:

Welcome to late stage capitalism, where you're either an owner, the child of a rich person or LITTLE PEOPLE!

 

And little people don't get a voice!  Your point of view will never be allowed anywhere!

Thank you, by the time I had even found the first reference 2 more pages had passed and I seen your marvelous post. 

[aka473]

1 minute ago, PandaSasquatch said:

LMAO. ChatGPT is not a source, and is not an intelligent being. I could care less what a large language model regurgitates in reaction to this. They all also have built in biases, all AI does.

It is still a neutral party to all of this. And it has it's own biases just like any other human. AI, and LLMs in particular are especially good at understanding the definition of words in context. It's part of why they are so much better than machine translators.

[maxstuff.net]

They probably just watch on YT - just because they didn't have an acct. on the forum it doesn't mean they are new to the community.

[Clipboards]

On 8/14/2023 at 5:25 PM, LinusTech said:

There won't be a big WAN Show segment about this or anything. Most of what I have to say, I've already said, and I've done so privately.

 

Of course, i'm coming into this fray 24 hours later, so your stance may have changed - until we get confirmation, i'd like to respond to this directly. 

 

As a weekly WAN shower watcher, the owner of hundreds & hundreds of dollars of LMG merch, an OG floatplane supporter, and just overall a long time supporter of LMG: you absolutely better have a long WAN show segment about this. You talk a constant & significant game about viewer/community expectations, and about how you expect LMG employees to live up to those expectations. This exact same obligation applies to you, more so than anyone downstream, and it's abundantly that you need to take accountability for all the problems noted. It actually just entirely does not matter if Steve handled this situation appropriately - this has been a growing issue, and your attitude towards significant community concerns is finally hitting a ceiling.

 

Get your ducks in a row, admit that you're wrong live on the WAN show (or make a video/post about it with a follow-up WAN show discussion), slow down the pace of your analytical content, and do what's best for "Team Media" & your community. I don't intend to pretend i'll boycott LTT over this, or that I think you're some monster clouded by corporate interests - I generally don't speak up in response to your blunders, but hopefully, many of us breaking our non-participation makes it clear that you are in the wrong and you need a reality check. 

 

You've had a lapse of judgment in significant points of concern for your employees & community, and you can fix it. I am still overwhelmingly convinced you are acting in good faith & truly want to do whats best for your community - you're just failing to do so. You need to cover this, and don't give us excuses / shift the blame - the Linus ego is getting tiring in the face of genuine criticism. 

[DrHax34]

4 minutes ago, aka473 said:

AI really isn't good at sentiment analysis. I wouldn't take it at face value, but asking for contextual definition and connotation of a specific phrase in context, that is something AI can do.

It does seem like it would handle this response better, this is a literal output of ChatGPT after I asked it "What would be the plan for LMG to prevent these issues from happening again":
 

Quote

Preventing obvious mistakes in the future requires a comprehensive plan that addresses communication, internal processes, quality control, and accountability. Here's a plan that Linus Media Group could consider implementing to prevent similar issues:

1. **Clear Communication Channels**:
   - Maintain open and regular communication with partners like Billet Labs to ensure both parties are on the same page regarding agreements, compensation, and content representation.
   - Ensure that all communication, especially agreements, are documented in writing to avoid misunderstandings.

2. **Editorial Review and Quality Control**:
   - Implement a rigorous editorial review process for content before publication. This includes fact-checking, verifying claims, and ensuring the accuracy of information presented.
   - Designate specific team members responsible for reviewing content to catch any potential inaccuracies or issues.

3. **Internal Training and Guidelines**:
   - Provide ongoing training to team members about ethical journalism practices, including fact-checking, proper sourcing, and representing products or partners accurately.
   - Develop comprehensive content guidelines that outline expectations for accuracy, transparency, and responsible reporting.

4. **Accountability and Oversight**:
   - Establish a system for cross-checking information and content before publication. This could involve peer reviews or approvals from multiple team members.
   - Assign a dedicated individual or team responsible for overseeing content quality and ensuring it aligns with the organization's standards.

5. **Transparency with the Community**:
   - Continuously emphasize transparency with the community. When issues arise, openly acknowledge them and explain the steps being taken to rectify the situation.
   - Provide regular updates to the community about improvements being made to internal processes and quality control measures.

6. **Learning from Mistakes**:
   - Conduct post-mortem analyses of situations where mistakes occurred. Identify the root causes, breakdowns in communication, or lapses in quality control that led to the issue.
   - Use these analyses to implement targeted improvements and adjust internal processes to prevent similar mistakes.

7. **Enhanced Partner Relations**:
   - Strengthen relationships with partners through regular communication and collaboration. Keep partners informed about content plans that involve them and seek their input when necessary.

8. **Sensitivity to Community Priorities**:
   - Develop a keen understanding of the community's values, expectations, and priorities. Ensure that content aligns with these priorities while remaining factual and transparent.

9. **Escalation and Conflict Resolution**:
   - Establish a clear escalation path for resolving disputes or misunderstandings with partners. This could involve direct communication with relevant stakeholders or mediation if necessary.

10. **Continuous Improvement Culture**:
    - Foster a culture of continuous improvement where team members are encouraged to identify areas for enhancement and innovation.
    - Regularly review and update internal processes to reflect best practices and industry standards.

By implementing these strategies, Linus Media Group can create a more resilient system that not only prevents obvious mistakes but also fosters a culture of accuracy, transparency, and accountability in their content creation and partnerships.

 

[jitteryzeitgeist]

Just now, Skipple said:

...right so back to your original point: 

  

It sounds like "borrowing shit from their friends" may be exactly what happened here. 

To be clear: this certainly doesn't absolve LMG of responsibility. I think it's rude and wrong to give away something that isn't yours, regardless B2B relationship or a friend. I'm just trying to figure out if this is the norm for companies to do business dealings in this way or not. 

A casual post on reddit doesn't really betray all of the legalese and corporate cluckfuckery that happens behind the scenes.  I mean, it's very possible that LTT dropped an address and Billet just sent it off, completely unaware that they just did a huge no-no.  And that this was, as they say in the biz, a "Come to Jesus" moment where you realize you don't know how things work and you need to learn it.

 

I expect that from a company that is 2 people in a garage.  I do not expect nor accept it from a $100 million company with a hundred and thirty employees.  That's an unacceptable oversight.

[Nafis]

32 minutes ago, ILikeHardware said:

Steve made a video with publicly available content stating facts only. His character is not coming into question. Attacking his character under these circumstances is the very definition of an ad hominem.

You are dealing with a lot of school kids who are very good at bashing rather than constructive criticism, just don't bother replying in such cases.

[xg32]

2 minutes ago, saintlouisbagels said:

Literally the majority of GN's video is about these problems.

The concerns brought up in his video exist regardless of the LMG employee's off-hand comment.

ya and my stance on that is, don't like it, don't watch it, as i haven't relied on a LTT benchmark for at least 2 years.

The comments made by tim were extremely...uncalled for, and even though steve said it didn't matter, i believe it did.

 

Linus can say it's because of the lab setting up, and he'll throw more money at it, i don't buy it. And i'm not emotionally invested enough to make a big deal out of LTT improving their videos.

[Color Deaf]

21 minutes ago, Saeumii said:

i think distinguishing between a charity and a sale is important in this case. "sale" implies personal profits, i.e greed. "charity" implies goodwill, i.e generosity. these haters will take any opportunity they can to dogpile linus, whether or not he deserves it, so i think it's important to not feed into that toxicity

The charity part is irrelevant, the words "auction" and "sale" have meaning and both of them mean you have sold an item. Whether you donate the proceeds of that sale to charity doesn't change the fact that the item was sold.

[ManWithHabits]

The project managment triangle: Cost / Quality / Speed.

Pick two.

.

.

.

OK, that didn't work. Pick again

[Icedman181]

1 minute ago, xg32 said:

As long as billet gets compensated, i'm more concerned about a lab employee firing shots at GN/HUB unprovoked who could have led to this whole debacle. The accuracy/technical problems with benchmarks are a watch/don't watch problem for me.

The unsubscribe moment for me was Linus' WAN show response to the Tim from the Labs comments. 

 

People say things but when the owner's reply is basically "well, he worded it poorly but the sentiment is right", I was done. I'll resubscribe if the ship turns around and I'm sure I'll watch some LTT stuff in the meantime but I have a lot of other sources I can turn to.

[jooroth18]

4 minutes ago, PandaSasquatch said:

LMAO. ChatGPT is not a source, and is not an intelligent being. I could care less what a large language model regurgitates in reaction to this. They all also have built in biases, all AI does.

I like how you instantly went to talking about AI and didnt bother to refute any other claim i made.

 

Its like you are trying to just poke holes in peoples post rather than evaluate all the points. Grow up.

 

You know, ive tried my best to be as non toxic and sympathetic as possible, but sometimes people need a firm hand.

[Vilacom]

39 minutes ago, jitteryzeitgeist said:

Nah I'm hoping they get a lawyer to work on contingency that has a chip on their shoulder and likes to deal with hucksters.

Don’t know many lawyers do you? 

[xg32]

1 minute ago, Icedman181 said:

The unsubscribe moment for me was Linus' WAN show response to the Tim from the Labs comments. 

 

People say things but when the owner's reply is basically "well, he worded it poorly but the sentiment is right", I was done. I'll resubscribe if the ship turns around and I'm sure I'll watch some LTT stuff in the meantime but I have a lot of other sources I can turn to.

WTF??? i didn't know that, do u have a clip? if so thats bad

[907rider]

On 8/14/2023 at 1:25 PM, LinusTech said:

There won't be a big WAN Show segment about this or anything. Most of what I have to say, I've already said, and I've done so privately.

To Steve, I expressed my disappointment that he didn't go through proper journalistic practices in creating this piece. He has my email and number (along with numerous other members of our team) and could have asked me for context that may have proven to be valuable (like the fact that we didn't 'sell' the monoblock, but rather auctioned it for charity due to a miscommunication... AND the fact that while we haven't sent payment yet, we have already agreed to compensate Billet Labs for the cost of their prototype). There are other issues, but I've told him that I won't be drawn into a public sniping match over this and that I'll be continuing to move forward in good faith as part of 'Team Media'. When/if he's ready to do so again I'll be ready.

To my team (and my CEO's team, but realistically I was at the helm for all of these errors, so I need to own it), I stressed the importance of diligence in our work because there are so many eyes on us. We are going through some growing pains - we've been very public about them in the interest of transparency - and it's clear we have some work to do on internal processes and communication. We have already been doing a lot of work internally to clean up our processes, but these things take time. Rome wasn't built in a day, but that's no excuse for sloppiness.

Now, for my community, all I can say is the same things I always say. We know that we're not perfect. We wear our imperfection on our sleeves in the interest of ensuring that we stay accountable to you. But it's sad and unfortunate when this transparency gets warped into a bad thing. The Labs team is hard at work hard creating processes and tools to generate data that will benefit all consumers - a work in progress that is very much not done and that we've communicated needs to be treated as such. Do we have notes under some videos? Yes. Is it because we are striving for transparency/improvement? Yeah... What we're doing hasn't been in many years, if ever.. and we would make a much larger correction if the circumstances merited it. Listing the wrong amount of cache on a table for a CPU review is sloppy, but given that our conclusions are drawn based on our testing, not the spec sheet, it doesn't materially change the recommendation. That doesn't mean these things don't matter. We've set KPIs for our writing/labs team around accuracy, and we are continually installing new checks and balances to ensure that things continue to get better. If you haven't seen the improvement, frankly I wonder if you're really looking for it... The thoroughness that we managed on our last handful of GPU videos is getting really incredible given the limited time we have for these embargoes. I'm REALLY excited about what the future will hold.

 

With all of that said, I still disagree that the Billet Labs video (not the situation with the return, which I've already addressed above) is an 'accuracy' issue. It's more like I just read the room wrong. We COULD have re-tested it with perfect accuracy, but to do so PROPERLY - accounting for which cases it could be installed in (none) and which radiators it would be plumbed with (again... mystery) would have been impossible... and also didn't affect the conclusion of the video... OR SO I THOUGHT...

 

I wanted to evaluate it as a product, and as a product, IF it could manage to compete with the temperatures of the highest end blocks on the planet, it still wouldn't make sense to buy... so from my point of view, re-testing it and finding out that yes, it did in fact run cooler made no difference to the conclusion, so it didn't really make a difference.

 

Adam and I were talking about this today. He advocated for re-testing it regardless of how non-viable it was as a product at the time and I think he expressed really well today why it mattered. It was like making a video about a supercar. It doesn't mater if no one watching will buy it. They just wanna see it rip.  I missed that, but it wasn't because I didn't care about the consumer.. it was because I was so focused on how this product impacted a potential buyer. Either way, clearly my bad, but my intention was never to harm Billet Labs. I specifically called out their incredible machining skills because I wanted to see them create something with a viable market for it and was hoping others would appreciate the fineness of the craftsmanship even if the product was impractical. I still hope they move forward building something else because they obviously have talent and I've watched countless niche water cooling vendors come and go. It's an astonishingly unforgiving market.

 

Either way, I'm sorry I got the community's priorities mixed-up on this one, and that we didn't show the Billet in the best light. Our intention wasn't to hurt anyone. We wanted no one to buy it (because it's an egregious waste of money no matter what temps it runs at) and we wanted Billet to make something marketable (so they can, y'know, eat).

 

With all of this in mind, it saddens me how quickly the pitchforks were raised over this. It also comes across a touch hypocritical when some basic due diligence could have helped clarify much of it. I have a LONG history of meeting issues head on and I've never been afraid to answer questions, which lands me in hot water regularly, but helps keep me in tune with my peers and with the community. The only reason I can think of not to ask me is because my honest response might be inconvenient. 

 

We can test that... with this post. Will the "It was a mistake (a bad one, but a mistake) and they're taking care of it" reality manage to have the same reach? Let's see if anyone actually wants to know what happened. I hope so, but it's been disheartening seeing how many people were willing to jump on us here. Believe it or not, I'm a real person and so is the rest of my team. We are trying our best, and if what we were doing was easy, everyone would do it. Today sucks.

 

Thanks for reading this.

 

 

Linus I hope you or someone else in your staff reads this.  From creation date of my profile here on the forum you can see that I have been keeping up with LMG for over a DECADE now.  Hopefully that will add some credence to what I have to say here.  I also want to say that I have been a Floatplane supporter for a very long time (in the OG $3.00 tier) I tried Floatplane back in the day but due to my being in Alaska there were issues with streaming and it was basically unusable.  I still kept paying that $3.00 a month because I wanted to support you guys and what you guys were trying to accomplish.

 

With that being said I am now considering pulling my Floatplane subscription and un-sub'ing from all of the LMG channels.  Linus has changed, and quite frankly not for the better.  Here on the forum, a while back, I posted something on this but seriously go watch any of the recent WAN shows and then go back 10 years and watch a WAN show.  The way that Linus interacts with Luke is a clear indicator of just how much he has changed.

 

The way that this whole scenario is being handled is quite frankly not okay.  I wont claim to know what REALLY happened with Brandon but I definitely get the vibe that there was some mistreatment there as well.  The fact that you didn't want to spend a few hundred dollars more of someone's time to correctly evaluate a product from a fledgling startup is crazy.  As far as the errors in reviews goes, stop trying to shift the blame and take accountability for your mistakes.  Some of these mistakes that GN pointed out are pretty glaring and should never have made it past the reviewers (if anyone there is really reviewing things before posting).

 

Something else in closing: In the DECADE that I have been watching LTT, I have gone from being a union (IBEW) electrician to now having an Bachelors degree in Electrical Engineering, and I am currently on a full ride scholarship to get my Masters of Electrical Engineering.  This means I am uniquely qualified in both the application and theory of electrical systems.  I want to say that you guys need to take a serious step back and re-evaluate what you are doing in some of your videos otherwise someone WILL get hurt.  When I hear one of your EE's say something like "It's like DC but its AC"....that makes me very scared.  And while I love Alex some of the stuff that he has been done is quite frankly unsafe and should not be posted on the internet for millions of followers to see.

[Tugmaster]

I am ok if Linus isn’t on WAN show to allow him time to lick his wounds. Better to have new CEO and Luke talk about this Friday from PR perspective.