An Alarming 87 Percent Of Retro Games Are Being Lost To Time

[OhioYJ]

45 minutes ago, starsmine said:

Like that's not done for music, that's not done for books, that's not done for movies, but games? They just yoink out a song after the fact?

*edit* I misread your post the first time through. 

 

Actually they do. Several games have had removed licensed music before:

 

Grand Theft Auto's History of Removing Music (Example Reference)

 

I believe music done specifically for a game or show wouldn't be pulled as that's done differently. I don't know if any cases of that happening off hand. However, it wouldn't surprise me if it's happened before.

[starsmine]

56 minutes ago, OhioYJ said:

*edit* I misread your post the first time through. 

 

Actually they do. Several games have had removed licensed music before:

 

Grand Theft Auto's History of Removing Music (Example Reference)

 

I believe music done specifically for a game or show wouldn't be pulled as that's done differently. I don't know if any cases of that happening off hand. However, it wouldn't surprise me if it's happened before.

No I meant music does not just suddenly lose their samples that they license 10 years down the road. 
I see where I was not clear.

I meant like Movies and Music dont just lose the stuff that is included just because its licensed. Tv shows generally dont, but it has happened and I don't understand why that's acceptable. Its COMMON in games, when in all other art mediums it either does not happen or is rare.

[RejZoR]

Apparently for car licenses they only apply for that game and for that release. If you want to remaster the game and re-release it years later, you need to negotiate new licenses again. It's stupid, but that's apparently the reason why we never got TNFS, NFS2, NFS3 Hot Pursuit, NFS4 High Stakes/Road Challenge and ultimately, NFS5 Porsche 2000/Unleashed. If there was none of this crap we could see amazing remasters of those older games, especially NFS5 that everyone would gladly experience again in remastered form.

[tikker]

On 7/17/2023 at 6:37 PM, Brooksie359 said:

Honestly if something isn't available through legal means I don't see how piracy is even illegal at that point. I mean there would be zero damages to the copyright holder as again it's not like they could have paid for said game. Honestly I think copyright holders should lose their copyright if they don't have the copyrighted material available in a legal means or they are currently working on a project related to the copyrighted material. 

I mean I still see it as illegal, but I 100% understand resorting to it. Perhaps a middle ground could be to not lose copyright, to avoid ripoffs, but to move towards some sort of archive or preservation policy where it has to be made available X years after it went out of sale or after the console went end-of-life.

7 hours ago, starsmine said:

Like that's not done for music, that's not done for books, that's not done for movies, but games? They just yoink out a song after the fact?
I know it has happened for TV shows, and I just. WHAT? A show should not just suddenly lose its intro 10 years later because of licensing. 

I hate this. Didn't the GTA remasters suffer from this as well? [Edit] welp, should've read the second page.

[Brooksie359]

28 minutes ago, tikker said:

I mean I still see it as illegal, but I 100% understand resorting to it. Perhaps a middle ground could be to not lose copyright, to avoid ripoffs, but to move towards some sort of archive or preservation policy where it has to be made available X years after it went out of sale or after the console went end-of-life.

I hate this. Didn't the GTA remasters suffer from this as well? [Edit] welp, should've read the second page.

I would see it as illegal if someone was making money off of it but if they are just letting other people get access to copies it doesn't really hurt anyone and I would argue it mostly is beneficial to the world as a whole. I don't see why any company would have the right to sue someone who made no money off of distribution of games they no longer support or sell. 

[Kisai]

14 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Apparently for car licenses they only apply for that game and for that release. If you want to remaster the game and re-release it years later, you need to negotiate new licenses again. It's stupid, but that's apparently the reason why we never got TNFS, NFS2, NFS3 Hot Pursuit, NFS4 High Stakes/Road Challenge and ultimately, NFS5 Porsche 2000/Unleashed. If there was none of this crap we could see amazing remasters of those older games, especially NFS5 that everyone would gladly experience again in remastered form.

Yep this is a thing. This is why you also never see Konami release Bemani (music/rhythm) games outside Japan. It's literately too much of a pain in the ass to license music for video games. Once your license expires, those games suddenly become illegal in practice (since they are still effectively jukeboxes that should be paying mechanical licences.) There is a separate "Jukebox" clearing house for this. 

 

But...

https://www.ascap.com/~/media/920D3FAF327B404CA8138B6E62A51689.pdf

 

Home versions of DDR are clearly not Jukeboxes, but ones that exist in an arcade are effectively the same as one.

 

I can name at least one cartoon that had all it's music stripped from it ("Super Mario Brothers Super Show" aside from two tracks, the opening, and the SMB1 music cues. Every use of licensed music (which was typically one per episode) was replaced with the same 30 second loop. The SMB3 music actually "covered" every track the first time, but even that stuff is kinda awful.)  There are lots of other shows that have licensed music stripped from it because the DVD producer didn't want to pay for ANY of it.

 

Games are worse for this, because the assets are easily stripped out of the game. Due to the propensity for games to be streamed now, it's even riskier to even have licensed music because it will result in backlash against the developer if a popular youtuber gets a DMCA for streaming a game that suddenly decides to play a billboard top 100 song.

 

Music is important for setting the games mood, but the complicated license model pretty much makes it impossible to ever "make music" with any intent of selling it to be used. If you want your music to associated with a game, you pretty much have to give it away to the developer for free with the stipulation that you receive credit for it and that you will never make a contentID claim against people playing the game on streaming platforms or youtube LP videos. Paying for a license for a specific track doesn't guarantee that some future owner of that track won't revoke it.

 

In all seriousness, the reason you don't see any more "Lemmings" games is because music is an integral part of the game, and the original versions of the game didn't license everything. So you can't really stream or record the game for youtube, you will get hammered for it.

 

[RejZoR]

The other thing is use of licensed music like EA does it. Old Need for Speed games had music composed specifically for the game. It not only sounded way better and felt more like an actual part of the game, it was also owned by the studio. EA Trax that they started using are just songs from other artists and that already creates a problem.

[Mark Kaine]

21 hours ago, starsmine said:

No I meant music does not just suddenly lose their samples that they license 10 years down the road. 
I see where I was not clear.

I meant like Movies and Music dont just lose the stuff that is included just because its licensed. Tv shows generally dont, but it has happened and I don't understand why that's acceptable. Its COMMON in games, when in all other art mediums it either does not happen or is rare.

tbh lots of samples were never "licensed" tho.

ex: fatboy slim keeps saying how he never asked for permission when using samples and thats just an example,  there's a gazillion techno and hip-hop tracks doing the same and all still available legally decades later... 

[Monkey Dust]

3 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

tbh lots of samples were never "licensed" tho.

ex: fatboy slim keeps saying how he never asked for permission when using samples and thats just an example,  there's a gazillion techno and hip-hop tracks doing the same and all still available legally decades later... 

That depends on how mangled the sample is and if it's identifiable. It's only illegal if you get caught...

 

Games don't attempt to disguise the music, so they have to adhere very strictly to licencing agreements. I find it telling that game publishers regard their product as short-lived by only licencing music in games for the bare number of years. Not exclusive to games though, some TV shows have fallen victim to this.

[Mark Kaine]

1 hour ago, Monkey Dust said:

It's only illegal if you get caught...

ig, but it probably depends on length too because a lot of these samples are *very* recognizable, they're just really short usually also.

 

was just saying its a thing that's technically "illegal" or at least used to be, nowadays you could maybe claim "fair use"

[Mark Kaine]

1 hour ago, Monkey Dust said:

I find it telling that game publishers regard their product as short-lived

tbf, most games *are* short lived, after 1-2 years nobody buys them anymore typically,  but i agree there should be an easier way for conservation for sure. 

[OhioYJ]

5 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

tbf, most games *are* short lived, after 1-2 years nobody buys them anymore typically,  but i agree there should be an easier way for conservation for sure. 

I would venture to say most games I buy are at least that old. I generally wait for good sales, which generally means games need to age some. 

[Mark Kaine]

1 hour ago, OhioYJ said:

I would venture to say most games I buy are at least that old. I generally wait for good sales, which generally means games need to age some. 

ya but that is irrelevant because most sales are in the first 1-2 months. 

 

generally people don't care about quality, they purely live on FOMO and hype 

[jagdtigger]

On 7/16/2023 at 12:41 PM, OhioYJ said:

With no legal way to archive / back these up. *see quote #2

Well if there is no legal way i guess one option is to end said games protection via law modification.....

[dizmo]

On 7/16/2023 at 7:49 PM, da na said:

Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing, for example, is a "fun-bad" trash fire that has become infamous for its horrible nature. 

 

Even shovelware deserves to be preserved. Someone somewhere will miss it if it's gone forever. Easy for things like DDI's Wii games, since there are physical releases but delisted iOS/Android games, eShop content, etc... very difficult.

 

Some kid in the future will be nostalgic for those "Amazing Spider Rope Hero Grand Theft City HD Free" games on the Play store. 

On their dime, sure. I don't agree that it deserves it at all. There's countless books that have simply gone by the wayside, the same is true for games. Not everything needs to be kept. 

[starsmine]

30 minutes ago, dizmo said:

On their dime, sure. I don't agree that it deserves it at all. There's countless books that have simply gone by the wayside, the same is true for games. Not everything needs to be kept. 

Dont make it on their dime.
ALLOW libraries to handle it then rather then blocking them from legally being able to preserve and rent it out.

[OhioYJ]

32 minutes ago, dizmo said:

Not everything needs to be kept. 

Your opinion. 

 

There are people willing to undertake these preservation efforts and do despite all the road blocks companies have tried to put up.

[Avocado Diaboli]

16 hours ago, dizmo said:

On their dime, sure. I don't agree that it deserves it at all. There's countless books that have simply gone by the wayside, the same is true for games. Not everything needs to be kept. 

Failed media and bad art is just as much a part of our culture and a learning experience as the good stuff. Nobody in their right mind would call The Eye of Argon a good story, but it developed a cultural trend around it that has kept it alive. The effort of preservation isn't to be an arbiter of quality, after all.