Intel Making a HEDT Comeback??? W790 Sapphire Rapids Workstation & HEDT CPU Platform Detailed

[CommanderAlex]

5 hours ago, Rolling2405 said:

Does anyone know when motherboard models will be announced? Will we be getting gaming/enthusiast boards such as Asus ROG?

ASUS is teasing W790 motherboards. Haven't seen anything from other manufacturer's such as MSI, Gigabyte etc. 

https://wccftech.com/intel-w790-motherboards-roundup-asus-w790-sage-w790-ace-asrock-w790-ws-supermicro-x13-series/

[CommanderAlex]

Noctua has unveiled 4 new CPU coolers that will fit on LGA4677, consisting of NH-U14S DX-4677, NH-U12S DX-4677, NH-U9 DX-4677 and NH-D9 DX-4677 4U.

https://noctua.at/en/noctua-presents-cpu-coolers-for-intel-s-lga4677-xeon-platform

 

 

I can't see how a 140mm single tower cooler will be able to cool a 16+ core Xeon without running at base clock speeds...

[porina]

1 hour ago, CommanderAlex said:

I can't see how a 140mm single tower cooler will be able to cool a 16+ core Xeon without running at base clock speeds...

Should be no problem for the W-2400 series, maybe only the W-3400 series could give it some challenge. Based on Noctua's own rating the older NH-U12S DX-3647 is near enough the same cooling performance as the consumer NH-D14. The reasoning they give is they optimise the CPU contact, and these are some BIG CPUs so lots of area to work with. The cooling of the heatsink itself is less a problem than getting the heat out of the CPU itself.

[CommanderAlex]

11 minutes ago, porina said:

Should be no problem for the W-2400 series, maybe only the W-3400 series could give it some challenge. Based on Noctua's own rating the older NH-U12S DX-3647 is near enough the same cooling performance as the consumer NH-D14. The reasoning they give is they optimise the CPU contact, and these are some BIG CPUs so lots of area to work with. The cooling of the heatsink itself is less a problem than getting the heat out of the CPU itself.

So, it's just due to the larger contact area/die with multiple cores that make it more manageable to cool? 

 

I just think about my 5950X and NH-D15 and that alone, I find to be hard enough to cool. (Still waiting for the "updated" NH-D15...Noctua any day now if it's just different fans after multiple delays and nothing changed on the cooler itself w.r.t. heat pipes and fin density)

[porina]

Just now, CommanderAlex said:

So, it's just due to the larger contact area/die with multiple cores that make it more manageable to cool? 

 

I just think about my 5950X and NH-D15 and that alone, I find to be hard enough to cool. (Still waiting for the "updated" NH-D15...Noctua any day now if it's just different fans after multiple delays and nothing changed on the cooler itself w.r.t. heat pipes and fin density)

Small(er) contact area on AMD chiplets. Been a thing since around Zen 2. Intel of the time while using higher power was easier to keep cool from bigger dies. There's still an element of that going on.

[CommanderAlex]

Just now, porina said:

Small(er) contact area on AMD chiplets. Been a thing since around Zen 2. Intel of the time while using higher power was easier to keep cool from bigger dies. There's still an element of that going on.

Yeah this is my first time running Ryzen, so I never gave thought about the chiplets being smaller than an Intel monolithic die. 

[BiG StroOnZ]

 

[CommanderAlex]

2 minutes ago, BiG StroOnZ said:

 

Thanks!!

 

@Zando_ placed it in the General HEDT Xeon/i7 thread too. Just watched it and Linus seems pretty stoked about it. 

[cretsiah]

but we going to have to pay a subscription to use the cores arent we???

 

to get maximum usage out of the chips

[KPKPBGKP]

On 2/16/2023 at 1:50 PM, CommanderAlex said:

ASUS is teasing W790 motherboards. Haven't seen anything from other manufacturer's such as MSI, Gigabyte etc. 

https://wccftech.com/intel-w790-motherboards-roundup-asus-w790-sage-w790-ace-asrock-w790-ws-supermicro-x13-series/

ASRock Also https://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/W790 WS/index.asp 

[NumLock21]

Out of the spotlight. Intel silently launches Sapphire Rapids Xeon Max

 

Comparison between the 2 flagship cpus

[leadeater]

4 hours ago, NumLock21 said:

Out of the spotlight. Intel silently launches Sapphire Rapids Xeon Max

Because they are nearly twice the cost of EPYC CPUs that have more cores and are also limited to 2 socket. One of the things Intel still had over AMD was 4S and 8S options, which still exist just not with Xeon Max.

 

It's just as bad on the cheaper range of Xeons like the Gold series, 25% more for equivalent server configurations.

 

HPE DL325 (Baseline): 7713P, 512GB RAM Dual M.2 Boot, 2x 2p 25Gb

HPE DL365 (Baseline +7%): 2x 7543, 512GB RAM Dual M.2 Boot, 2x 2p 25Gb

HPE DL360 (Baseline+25%): 2x Xeon 6338, 512GB RAM Dual M.2 Boot, 2x 2p 25Gb

HPE DL365 (Baseline +50%): 2x 9354, 512GB RAM Dual M.2 Boot, 2x 2p 25Gb

 

Quote 2 days old. I need a reason not to go AMD here at 25% more cost to be able to achieve the same ESX host capacity. Mind you EPYC 9004 suffering from even worse value.

 

At $13k for the top Xeon Max with 56 cores where as EPYC3 comes in at $7k/$7.8k for 64 and EPYC4 $9k.

 

Xeon 6338: $3k MSRP

EPYC 9354: $3.4k MSRP

EPYC 7543: $3.7k MSRP

EPYC 7713P: $5k MSRP

 

As you can see by my above actual server quotes the pricing of server CPUs isn't even close to the list MSRP people can see online. The Intel DL360 should be the second cheapest behind the DL325.

 

[Rolling2405]

On 2/16/2023 at 3:50 AM, CommanderAlex said:

ASUS is teasing W790 motherboards. Haven't seen anything from other manufacturer's such as MSI, Gigabyte etc. 

https://wccftech.com/intel-w790-motherboards-roundup-asus-w790-sage-w790-ace-asrock-w790-ws-supermicro-x13-series/

It seems like we won't be getting any ROG boards which is really sad. Although, the workstation boards seem like they might be similar.

[gRaN-Ma project]

w5-3435X vs W7-2495X, interesting challenge!

 

In my humble opinion, the supermicro X13SWA-TF motherboard is the best in the market so far. It would be interesting to build DIY gpu servers with supermicro X13SWA-TF and Asus PRO WS W790E-SAGE SE with identical RAM, ssd and gpu cards in order to check the benchmarks of the aforementioned processors.
In fact, despite the lower price of the w5-3435X processor, in multi gpu mode the w5-3435X with the supermicro X13SWA-TF motherboard would be able to win the W7-2495X with the Asus PRO WS W790E-SAGE SE motherboard. Otherwise in single gpu mode the W7-2495X with the Asus PRO WS W790E-SAGE SE motherboard would win. Also in my humble opinion the w5-3435X with supermicro X13SWA-TF motherboard has a better total cost of ownership than the W7-2495X with PRO WS W790E-SAGE SE motherboard. Of course still Gigabyte has to launch its W790 motherboard.

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, gRaN-Ma project said:

In my humble opinion, the supermicro X13SWA-TF motherboard is the best in the market so far

Looks really great right until it only has 1Gb onboard networking. I'd rather not have to use a PCIe NIC for 10Gb/25Gb, not a huge deal but for these products not having much higher speed onboard networking is a little questionable.

 

1 hour ago, gRaN-Ma project said:

Asus PRO WS W790E-SAGE SE motherboard

This one has dual 10Gb networking and support both Xeon W 2400/3400. The Asus also support the same number for PCIe slots and GPUs as the Supermicro for the 3400 CPUs and support 1 additional PCIe slot when using 2400 compared to the Supermicro.

 

For such a high end system the Asus option has more compelling features. That said personally I wouldn't be using the onboard 10Gb anyway since I'd want 25Gb and I suspect no workstation motherboard is going to have that. Supermicro will bring out workstation boards later with 10Gb though.

 

I would more likely end up going with a server motherboard that supports the Xeon W's if they do and choose one with OCP3 slot and put in a 2x 25Gb OCP card. I don't need lots of USB ports and onboard audio etc, I use HDMI audio and hardly anything USB.

[CommanderAlex]

4 hours ago, Rolling2405 said:

It seems like we won't be getting any ROG boards which is really sad. Although, the workstation boards seem like they might be similar.

Yeah I don't think ASUS is gonna make ROG boards for a workstation socket. Even if they do and launch them later, they'll probably be over $1,000 simply due to the ROG name. 

[gRaN-Ma project]

28 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Looks really great right until it only has 1Gb onboard networking

Yes,  X13SWA-TF motherboard has one 10Gb networking.

Yes, 7 PCI Express x16 slots of Asus PRO WS W790E-SAGE SE motherboard supports PCIe 5.0, but I don't think that all of them run at x16, even with the 3400 line CPUs.

Then these are personal choices.

 

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, gRaN-Ma project said:

Yes,  X13SWA-TF motherboard has one 10Gb networking.

Ah I see, sorry I assumed the Marvell controller was the BMC/IPMI since that's really common usage for them on server motherboards. I only checked the Intel ethernet controller specs haha oops.

 

1 hour ago, gRaN-Ma project said:

Yes, 7 PCI Express x16 slots of Asus PRO WS W790E-SAGE SE motherboard supports PCIe 5.0, but I don't think that all of them run at x16, even with the 3400 line CPUs.

The Asus has one extra slot compared to the Supermicro and it supports x8 if all other slots are being used. Not that it matters since if you are using dual slot GPUs the slot will be covered anyway like the other half will be anyway so it really doesn't matter at all. It's something that is only applicable if you are using 7 single slot cards or a mixture and specially for some weird reason can and will be using that slot while the other slot it's paired with is also populated but not a dual slot card.

 

Asus

Quote

Intel® Xeon® W-3400 Series Processors*
7 x PCIe 5.0 slot(s) (Seven at x16/x16/x16/x16/x16/x8/x16)**
Intel® Xeon® W-2400 Series Processors*
4 x PCIe 5.0 slot(s) (Four at x16/x16/x16/x16)**

 

Supermicro

Quote

6 PCIe 5.0 x16 Slots, support up to 6 Single Width/4 Double Width/2 Triple Width GPU cards (Xeon® W-3400, 112L) 3 PCIe 5.0 x16 Slots, support up to 3 Single Width/3 Double Width/2 Triple Width GPU cards (slot 3/5/7) (Xeon® W-2400, 64L)

 

If you look at the two boards the additional slot on the Asus is where the gap is between the slots on the Supermicro where they choose an M.2 instead. Either way both have 6 PCIe slots that will do x16 in the same layout meaning no difference at all other than an extra PCIe slot where a 25Gb NIC would be suitable (that you can't use with 4 dual slot GPUs).

 

1 hour ago, gRaN-Ma project said:

Then these are personal choices.

Such as? Like cost for sure but the Asus has dual 10Gb with a superior Intel X710-AT2 controller along with better support for XMP if you don't intend to use RDIMMs. The Supermicro has twice the number of DIMM slots so supports up to 4TB compared to 2TB of the Asus.

 

An actual personal choice from be would be to not use a Supermicro product like a motherboard since their firmware is quite substandard in my opinion and slow to fix issues. We have a lot of Supermicro ODM based servers and compared to HPE not nearly as good quality standards wise, but they are cheaper so 

 

If I was buying one to be productive with it only I'd get a HP or HPE, Dell or maybe Lenovo workstation with base specs and self upgrade it. Otherwise if it's going to be my home gaming system then something like the Asus is more likely what I'd want since I would try out OC just because I want to. I'd still rather have a motherboard with an OCP slot but something like that will not have OC support at all, very sad.

[gRaN-Ma project]

24 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Ah I see, ...

Frankly, I didn't understand you were referring to the IPMI. Supermicro's IPMI is handled by an intel i210AT (if source is reliable) at 1GbE. Evidently you use the IPMI. Regarding the dual 10 Gb port of Asus or other 'on board' gimmicks from Asus, note that the disclaimer in the motherboard instruction manual is a possibility:
"Because of the limited I/O resources of the PC architecture, the number of devices that can be used is dependent on the number of the PCI Express devices being installed."

Also about IPMI "Attackers can use IPMI to essentially gain physical-level access to the server.  An attacker can reboot the system, install a new operating system, or compromise data, bypassing any operating system controls." from CISA official report. 

However you like the Asus motherboard and you find it more convenient. Instead, I'm looking for something more like a developer that, money permitting, in the future it will allow me for example to experiment with OSS PCIe Expansion solutions (if PCIe Bifurcation works).

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, gRaN-Ma project said:

Frankly, I didn't understand you were referring to the IPMI. Supermicro's IPMI is handled by an intel i210AT (if source is reliable) at 1GbE. Evidently you use the IPMI.

I was referring to it originally because for such a high end board the only typical reason a Marvell controller is present is for the purposes of BMC/IPMI. I only checked the Intel one and found it to be 1Gb only and concluded that the board did not have 10Gb because I didn't see a reason to check the Marvell controller and the spec sheet didn't call out 10Gb support anywhere.

 

In terms of quality, performance and features Intel controller are superior to Marvell hence why I would expect the primary controller to have been the Intel.

 

1 hour ago, gRaN-Ma project said:

Also about IPMI "Attackers can use IPMI to essentially gain physical-level access to the server.  An attacker can reboot the system, install a new operating system, or compromise data, bypassing any operating system controls." from CISA official report. 

That's a non-issue for anyone not insane who does not port forward IPMI to the internet. That's like saying houses aren't secure because they have windows and doors, don't leave them open 

 

1 hour ago, gRaN-Ma project said:

Regarding the dual 10 Gb port of Asus or other 'on board' gimmicks from Asus, note that the disclaimer in the motherboard instruction manual is a possibility:
"Because of the limited I/O resources of the PC architecture, the number of devices that can be used is dependent on the number of the PCI Express devices being installed."

The two boards are near as much identical, as they should be being the same platform and chipset. Dual 10Gb is not a gimmick nor anything else on the board other than unnecessary VRM layout if you do not intend to OC.

 

The PCIe slots are direct to the CPU so other onboard devices/features have no impact here since they come off the PCH/Chipset. These same warnings equally apply to the Supermicro board.

 

1 hour ago, gRaN-Ma project said:

However you like the Asus motherboard and you find it more convenient. Instead, I'm looking for something more like a developer that, money permitting, in the future it will allow me for example to experiment with OSS PCIe Expansion solutions (if PCIe Bifurcation works).

They both literally support this. Like the original reason I replied to you was that your conclusion didn't make any sense because both motherboard support the same number of PCIe slots in x16 mode fully populated.

 

The Asus + 3435X is just as valid option as the Supermicro + 3435X where price is really the differentiator. Going with the Supermicro isn't going to give you more versatility with the PCIe slots, it will however sting the wallet less which is a significant factor to most people.

 

Here are the differences between the two:

• Price
• Dual 10Gb vs Single 10Gb
• 3 M.2 (2x PCie 5.0 off CPU, 1x PCIe 4.0 off Chipset) + 1 x16 PCIe slot (x8 mode) vs 4 M.2 (4x PCIe 5.0 off CPU)
• 8 DIMMs vs 16 DIMMs
• OC optimized BIOS vs standard BIOS (this not being a "negative")
• Minor USB port differences I don't care enough about

It's not that I like the Asus more I just found it very odd you saying the Supermicro would be better and could do more than the Asus and tried to limit the comparison when using that board to only 2400 series. These two boards are functionally identical neither being better or more limited than the other. Supermicro has more experience in servers and Xeon platforms than Asus does so firmware and PCIe device compatibility and support should be better than the Asus but from actual experience with many generations of Supermicro servers this is not something to count on sadly.

 

The Asus PRO WS W790E-SAGE SE was specifically designed for the 3400 series, the Pro WS W790-ACE was designed for the 2400 series. They both support 3400 & 2400 CPUs caveat being a 3400 in the ACE means you can't use the extra PCIe lanes of those CPUs and a 2400 in the SAGE means half the PCIe slots aren't connected to the CPU so can't be used, you still get 4 slots at PCIe 5.0 x16 in dual slot spacing so can use 4 GPUs.

[gRaN-Ma project]

 

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

I was referring to it originally because for such a high end board the only typical reason a Marvell controller is present is for the purposes of BMC/IPMI. I only checked the Intel one and found it to be 1Gb only and concluded that the board did not have 10Gb because I didn't see a reason to check the Marvell controller and the spec sheet didn't call out 10Gb support anywhere.

 

In terms of quality, performance and features Intel controller are superior to Marvell hence why I would expect the primary controller to have been the Intel.

https://www.supermicro.com/en/products/motherboard/x13swa-tf

 

In the meantime I found an official document from supermicro.

Ok, it's really important for you to use 1Gb intel port directly instead of 10 Gb marvell. But the term "hedt" can refer simply to the price or to the build "subjective or objective" quality of the components. For this reason I have already told you that they are personal choices.

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

These same warnings equally apply to the Supermicro board.

I doubt it, but no matter.

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

They both literally support this.

i.e for OSS PCIe Expansion solutions I doubt it, due to the Bios, but no matter. You can see about this well known issue the following videos:

 

However, it would be nice to be able to test both motherboards at this point. Therefore we are all available. If the manufacturers are also available....

[Rolling2405]

13 hours ago, CommanderAlex said:

Yeah I don't think ASUS is gonna make ROG boards for a workstation socket. Even if they do and launch them later, they'll probably be over $1,000 simply due to the ROG name. 

Would there be/ are there differences between regular Asus boards and ROG boards?

[CommanderAlex]

15 minutes ago, Rolling2405 said:

Would there be/ are there differences between regular Asus boards and ROG boards?

I'm not too sure about the technicalities such as VRM amperage, PCB layers, quality of components used. I think they're more aesthetically marketed (ROG) towards gamers and the price tag for them is higher as a result cause it's "gamer".

[leadeater]

3 minutes ago, CommanderAlex said:

I'm not too sure about the technicalities such as VRM amperage, PCB layers, quality of components used. I think they're more aesthetically marketed (ROG) towards gamers and the price tag for them is higher as a result cause it's "gamer".

It's just branding, the same design and engineering team (I think anyway) does ROG and non-ROG Asus motherboard products. Personally I would say the current SAGE & ACE motherboards are what an ROG branded one would be already since it has 2x 24 Pin connectors, 4x 8 Pin EPS and 8 & 6 Pin PCIe slot supplementary power and LN2 mode jumper. It's also quite "gamer" in aesthetics just a little sparse on the RGB (thankfully).

[Rolling2405]

On 2/16/2023 at 5:02 AM, CommanderAlex said:

Noctua has unveiled 4 new CPU coolers that will fit on LGA4677,

Have any companies announced AIO liquid coolers? I hope we get some liquid cooler options.