Intel Making a HEDT Comeback??? W790 Sapphire Rapids Workstation & HEDT CPU Platform Detailed

[CommanderAlex]

 

 

 

 

Summary

 

Intel is set to roll out its Xeon W-2400 and Xeon W-3400 series processors for HEDT (High-End Desktop) and extreme workstations on February 15^th, with a supposed review embargo date of February 22^nd. This will be Intel's first HEDT platform in more than 3 years, since X299 was launched in Q2 2017 and Cascade Lake-X being the last architecture to be launched in 2019. Intel will bring a new socket, Socket LGA4677 as well as a flagship CPU carrying 56 Golden Cove cores and 112 threads, dubbed Xeon W9-3495X. The W9-3495X will have a base clock of 1.90 GHz and a boost clock of 4.80 GHz. Expert Xeon W-3400 series will carry 112 PCIe lanes as well as 8 memory channels. Mainstream workstation Xeon W-2400 series will bring 24 cores and 48 threads, 64 PCIe lanes and remain with 4 memory channels. Review Embargo will be 22 Feb 2023 09:00AM PT. This is an important moment for Intel after AMD basically kicked Intel out of these markets with their Ryzen Threadripper CPUs. 

 

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Although Intel will be launching these new processors under a Xeon brand, they are the spiritual successors to long forgotten Core-X series, not updated since the 10th Gen series. The upcoming Xeon W2400 and W3400 lineup will not only have many more cores built with the latest architecture, they will also support all modern technologies such as DDR5 or PCIe Gen5. It is no doubt, a major update to Intel’s Xeon/HEDT portfolio.

According to Wccftech, a embargo date of 15 Feb 2023 09:00AM PT, followed a week later by a review embargo on 22 Feb 2023 09:00AM PT will occur. Intel will be splitting the launch of the "Mainstream W2400" series and "Expert W3400" series. A brand new W790 motherboard will be launched as well. 

 

A Mainstream W3400 SKU series spec sheet has been posted as well, shown below. 

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A Expert W2400 SKU series spec sheet has been posted as well, shown below. 

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Enthusiasts will be pleased with the bump in core counts, unlocked multipliers and quad or octa-channel DDR5 memory support with TDP ranges of 110W to 350W. Prices are unknown at this time but are expected to be not cheap.

 

W790 'Fishhawk Falls' Chipset Platform

 

Intel's Xeon 2400 series and 3400 series CPUs will launch on a new platform, W790. Intel's new W790 chipset will provide 16 PCIe 4.0 lanes, up to 12 PCIe 3.0 lanes, up to 8 SATA ports, up to 5 USB3.2 Gen2x2 connections, up to 10 USB3.2 Gen2 ports, Wi-Fi 6E capabilities, and supports two 2.5GbE PHY controllers. 

 

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A Leaked Motherboard: SuperMicro X13SWA-TF

There has been a leaked motherboard that has surfaced online, the SuperMicro X13SWA-TF for LGA4677 processors that are codenamed Sapphire Rapids, confirming more of the leaks based on the new Xeon 2400 and Xeon 3400 CPUs

mentioned above.

 

Details emerged from the source, Chiphell. 

 

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Also, a spec sheet for the motherboard is listed here. 

 

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This motherboard appears to have 6 x16 slots, although for the "Mainstream" Xeon 2400 series, only 3 slots will be full speed directly from the CPU due to the # of PCIe lanes these processors carry. This motherboard alone is an E-ATX form factor, powered by a normal 24-pin and three 8-pin CPU EPS power. 

 

Projected Release Timeline: Q1 2023

 

The expected launch time of the new W790 chipset is Q1 2023, towards the end of March as the leaked sales embargo dates for the Xeon 2400 series and W790 chipset is 08 March to 22 March 2023. For the Xeon 3400 series, 12 April to 26 April 2023.

 

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My thoughts

Phew!!! Probably one of the longest Tech News articles to write and will be updated throughout the launch period. I'm pretty excited to see Sapphire Rapids and most importantly, Intel, returning back to the HEDT lineup after no new launches since Cascade Lake-X back in 2019 on X299 platform. The W790 chipset appears to provide everything a workstation client will ever need, especially using the Xeon 3400 CPUs with up to 112 CPU PCIe lanes. DDR5 now being mainstream and an octa memory channel for the "Expert" lineup is as if Intel is moving into the spot that the Intel based Apple Mac Pro (2019) will take once Apple updates the Mac Pro to their own processors and finally move away from Intel. For the mainstream, Xeon 2400 series take the spot that the Core Extreme processor once had with X299. I'm afraid that they may price these processors too high and will be DOA, essentially leaving it up to the "Expert"/workstation to compete with Threadripper PRO and AMD. 

 

I'm excited to see where this goes. 

 

Sources

https://videocardz.com/newz/intel-xeon-w-2400-workstation-hedt-cpus-are-launching-in-march-reviews-on-february-22nd

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-return-to-hedt-xeon-w9-3495x-hits-geekbenched

https://videocardz.com/newz/supermicro-next-gen-intel-w790-xeon-hedt-motherboard-pictured-up-close

https://wccftech.com/intel-w790-desktop-workstation-hedt-cpu-platform-detailed-up-to-8-channel-ddr5-oc-support/

[leadeater]

26 minutes ago, CommanderAlex said:

Intel is set to roll out its Xeon W-2400 and Xeon W-3400 series processors for HEDT (High-End Desktop) and extreme workstations on February 15^th, with a supposed review embargo date of February 22^nd. This will be Intel's first HEDT platform in more than 3 years, since X299 was launched in Q2 2017 and Cascade Lake-X being the last architecture to be launched in 2019.

I just want to say Xeon W is not HEDT and X299 is not in this family of product announcement. HEDT still does not exist from Intel on the HEDT family product line.

 

Xeon W and Core X (HEDT) have always co-exited and are different platforms. Note realistically we don't use the same naming Intel does so I'm intentionally using community names for these things.

 

LGA2066 had two chipsets, X299 and Intel C422

• C422 = Xeon W
• X299 = Core X

 

From what I see here is that Intel is removing the split socket of Xeon W and going with a single socket and pulling the lower product tier up in to the larger socket. That means there isn't a new X299 coming and while you can buy in to this new platform it's going to cost a lot more than an equivalent X299 would have. Sadly because they have Xeon naming I don't think we'll get any RIP GN/Jay OC wars with them and I doubt they will get review samples or bother buying them, argh.

 

TL;DR HEDT is still dead.

[CommanderAlex]

9 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I just want to say Xeon W is not HEDT and X299 is not in this family of product announcement. HEDT still does not exist from Intel on the HEDT family product line.

 

Xeon W and Core X (HEDT) have always co-exited and are different platforms. Note realistically we don't use the same naming Intel does so I'm intentionally using community names for these things.

 

LGA2066 had two chipsets, X299 and Intel C422

• C422 = Xeon W
• X299 = Core X

 

From what I see here is that Intel is removing the split socket of Xeon W and going with a single socket and pulling the lower product tier up in to the larger socket. That means there isn't a new X299 coming and while you can buy in to this new platform it's going to cost a lot more than an equivalent X299 would have. Sadly because they have Xeon naming I don't think we'll get any RIP GN/Jay OC wars with them and I doubt they will get review samples or bother buying them, argh.

 

TL;DR HEDT is still dead.

Well, the Mainstream W series appears to be replacing what was once Core Extreme processors found on X series chipsets. Yeah it appears they are just rebadging and consolidating into one socket. 

 

EDIT: Also, these new W-series SKUs include X SKUs, meaning they have unlocked multipliers; essentially bringing back HEDT. 

[leadeater]

10 minutes ago, CommanderAlex said:

Well, the Mainstream W series appears to be replacing what was once Core Extreme processors found on X series chipsets. Yeah it appears they are just rebadging and consolidating into one socket.

I don't see it that way since Xeon W used to live on X290/C422 and both could cross work in each chipset and board. The lower end of Xeon W was incompatible with the higher end since it lived on the server socket. With this release it's all on the server socket, so I just see it as low end Xeon W getting pulled up to a more expensive socket and platform leaving Core X still dead with no future.

 

10 minutes ago, CommanderAlex said:

EDIT: Also, these new W-series SKUs include X SKUs, meaning they have unlocked multipliers; essentially bringing back HEDT. 

The last generation of Xeon W had unlocked options. This isn't new. Unlocked Xeon W and Core X co-existed like I mentioned.

[CommanderAlex]

4 minutes ago, leadeater said:

The last generation of Xeon W had unlocked options. This isn't new.

A single SKU...the W-3175X it did.

[leadeater]

24 minutes ago, CommanderAlex said:

A single SKU...the W-3175X it did.

True and it wasn't to successful at the time so more got shelved. But that's not really the problem. The Xeon W CPUs alone like for like compared to Core X are around triple the cost and the larger server socket only comes with very, very expensive motherboard options.

 

That's why I'm saying HEDT is still dead because even those with the deepest pockets that were buying HEDT aren't the ones buying Threadripper Pro or these. I do really want a new HEDT but this simply isn't it sadly.

 

Edit: Also note I have been highly critical of HEDT moving off the server socket in the past and I want it back on it like this but I don't want to be paying Xeon pricing.

[CommanderAlex]

13 minutes ago, leadeater said:

True and it wasn't to successful at the time so more got shelved. But that's not really the problem. The Xeon W CPUs alone like for like compared to Core X are around triple the cost and the larger server socket only comes with very, very expensive motherboard options.

 

That's why I'm saying HEDT is still dead because even those with the deepest pockets that were buying HEDT aren't the ones buying Threadripper Pro or these. I do really want a new HEDT but this simply isn't it sadly.

 

Edit: Also note I have been highly critical of HEDT moving off the server socket in the past and I want it back on it like this but I don't want to be paying Xeon pricing.

Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of what's going to happen even to the "Mainstream" W processors they plan on releasing on this socket type. 

 

You are right in theory that bringing back HEDT, economically is dead for the majority of consumers. "Expert" will just compete with Threadripper Pro and nothing really will come to us that favored what can be called the OG HEDT...X79, X99, X299 etc.

[leadeater]

26 minutes ago, CommanderAlex said:

nothing really will come to us that favored what can be called the OG HEDT...X79, X99, X299 etc.

Maybe these lower core count Xeon W's won't be that costly, I just can't bring myself to be hopeful of that lol. I'm still running my X79 system and I'm still salty about what happened to HEDT over the years and it's death.

[porina]

Been wanting a successor to my X299 system for a while. I'd love to see consumer facing HEDT again but Workstation parts aren't going to be cost viable for me. Still I wont rule it out and see what we get once it releases.

[CommanderAlex]

8 hours ago, leadeater said:

Maybe these lower core count Xeon W's won't be that costly, I just can't bring myself to be hopeful of that lol. I'm still running my X79 system and I'm still salty about what happened to HEDT over the years and it's death.

 

2 hours ago, porina said:

Been wanting a successor to my X299 system for a while. I'd love to see consumer facing HEDT again but Workstation parts aren't going to be cost viable for me. Still I wont rule it out and see what we get once it releases.

Who knows, just like with AMD AM5, we have to wait for cheaper motherboards to launch or come down in price. Maybe to bring back an "X" chipset motherboard pricing instead of a full spec W790 chipset motherboard, a cut down version may release?? 

[leadeater]

17 minutes ago, CommanderAlex said:

Who knows, just like with AMD AM5, we have to wait for cheaper motherboards to launch or come down in price. Maybe to bring back an "X" chipset motherboard pricing instead of a full spec W790 chipset motherboard, a cut down version may release?? 

Cheaper boards could be possible. Intel requires the server C series chipset boards to have 8 channel DIMM slots where as W790 allows 4 channel single or dual DIMM per channel as well as 8 channel so there is a decent cost saving there in board design. A decent W790 with only 4 DIMM slots sounds good to me and should come in at much lower cost, only leaves the PCIe 5.0 issue but Asrock will probably do an ITX/mATX option further lowering costs.

 

The potential is already there, I just worry simply because it's all under the Xeon banner that the gamer brands might shy away from it because of that. My fear is every motherboard trying to be too high end with too many DIMM slots and too many PCIe 5.0 slots off the CPU. I know sounds dumb but that's the main difference between a $300 motherboard and a $700+ motherboard.

[Kisai]

I'd love to have a computer I could stick 3 GPU's in, but there is simply no way to power one at home. Two 600w GPU's + a 300w CPU is likely the same thermal power as a large space heater.

 

[StDragon]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

I'd love to have a computer I could stick 3 GPU's in, but there is simply no way to power one at home. Two 600w GPU's + a 300w CPU is likely the same thermal power as a large space heater.

 

20a circuit at 120v = 2,400w

 

Such a rig isn't going to happen unless it's an OEM rack mounted chassis where you have both power and cooling. And if by chance you build one yourself (assuming you can with aftermarket MB and PSUs), getting a dedicated 20a circuit installed will be costly. That's not including additional cooling that a mini-split installation might be required. All assuming using it for both AI processing and rendering consistently.

[porina]

3 hours ago, CommanderAlex said:

Who knows, just like with AMD AM5, we have to wait for cheaper motherboards to launch or come down in price. Maybe to bring back an "X" chipset motherboard pricing instead of a full spec W790 chipset motherboard, a cut down version may release?? 

Having had a closer look, W790 + a 2400X series CPU would be like HEDT of old in all but consumer X name. Sucks a bit it will still be stuck on quad channel but it can be OC so overall bw could still be ball park 2x that of a X299 system. 64 PCIe lanes is sufficient. Wonder how it would be set up. Are there dedicated lanes for storage or is it expected to be cut up by the mobo designer? For instance, 4x x16 is a logical configuration without M.2 CPU support. If you funnel some lanes out maybe it'll end up 2x x4 for storage, and x16/x16/x16/x8 for expansion? My X299 only offers x16/x16/x8 anyway.

[HenrySalayne]

On 2/4/2023 at 3:11 AM, leadeater said:

TL;DR HEDT is still dead.

On 2/4/2023 at 3:54 AM, leadeater said:

That's why I'm saying HEDT is still dead because even those with the deepest pockets that were buying HEDT aren't the ones buying Threadripper Pro or these. I do really want a new HEDT but this simply isn't it sadly.

 

Edit: Also note I have been highly critical of HEDT moving off the server socket in the past and I want it back on it like this but I don't want to be paying Xeon pricing.

IMHO with 16 core (or 8+16 core) CPUs, the market segment for HEDT has shrunken considerably.

And 32+ core processors, more than 2 channels or RAM and PCIe connectivity come at the premium for professional workstations. If you only need the RAM or the PCIe lanes, you are out of luck and you simply have to buy into a different class of product.

 

[dogwitch]

22 hours ago, Kisai said:

I'd love to have a computer I could stick 3 GPU's in, but there is simply no way to power one at home. Two 600w GPU's + a 300w CPU is likely the same thermal power as a large space heater.

 

 

yeah folding. max out... i was pulling 850 to 900 watts with my flair build.

then another TR build less spec. 650

[porina]

45 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

IMHO with 16 core (or 8+16 core) CPUs, the market segment for HEDT has shrunken considerably.

And 32+ core processors, more than 2 channels or RAM and PCIe connectivity come at the premium for professional workstations. If you only need the RAM or the PCIe lanes, you are out of luck and you simply have to buy into a different class of product.

This is exactly the pain point I'm in. What I wanted in HEDT wasn't primarily more cores, but the ram bandwidth. So the current high end CPUs are the worse possible combo for me. More cores, and no way to feed them data. During quad core era (up to Kaby Lake) I estimated an optimal balance point of 2 channels per 3 cores. I haven't checked scaling since, as IPC and a load of other factors have changed, but even if we say that goes up to 6 cores for DDR5, for any serious system it is still severely choked. V-cache helps in many cases but above 8 cores you have fragmentation issues which are a new pain point. Gaming is not my personal driving force for this, but even now we see faster ram and/or bigger caches used to help out. Those are signs that we can use more ram bandwidth.

 

Intel HEDT was a good balance of platform and pricing. I didn't find WS CPUs that bad but the mobos were the killer.

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, porina said:

This is exactly the pain point I'm in. What I wanted in HEDT wasn't primarily more cores, but the ram bandwidth. So the current high end CPUs are the worse possible combo for me. More cores, and no way to feed them data. During quad core era (up to Kaby Lake) I estimated an optimal balance point of 2 channels per 3 cores. I haven't checked scaling since, as IPC and a load of other factors have changed, but even if we say that goes up to 6 cores for DDR5, for any serious system it is still severely choked. V-cache helps in many cases but above 8 cores you have fragmentation issues which are a new pain point. Gaming is not my personal driving force for this, but even now we see faster ram and/or bigger caches used to help out. Those are signs that we can use more ram bandwidth.

 

Intel HEDT was a good balance of platform and pricing. I didn't find WS CPUs that bad but the mobos were the killer.

Really depends on pricing but you could always use something like the W7-3455, it's basically the same as the W9-2495X but with 8 memory channels, higher TDP and more PCIe lanes. It's locked, next model up is unlocked, but that'll likely help lower the price of it.

 

Problem is 8 channel motherboards aren't going to be cheap.

[porina]

18 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Really depends on pricing but you could always use something like the W7-3455, it's basically the same as the W9-2495X but with 8 memory channels, higher TDP and more PCIe lanes. It's locked, next model up is unlocked, but that'll likely help lower the price of it.

I said before I don't need high core counts. I think the logical candidates for me are either the 2455X or 3435X, as lowest OC enabled CPU in each platform.

 

Thing is with the 2455X at same core count as my 7920X, it gives a tiny additional clock boost and potentially 28% IPC if it follows CFL>RKL>ADL consumer. This may help gaming perf, which is one area I'd like to improve. Memory bandwidth with standard ram is >50% extra, more possible if it allows XMP, or I might go the other way and throw some ECC in as I value stability over absolute performance. 

 

18 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Problem is 8 channel motherboards aren't going to be cheap.

I'm not sure the ram channels themselves are that costly. 8 mem slot boards don't have to be expensive, even if there is additional tracking required for 8ch 1DPC vs 4ch 2DPC. Feels like the bigger excess are the PCIe lanes, that's 7 full x16 equivalent of CPU connected lanes. Total overkill for me. Looking at some Ice Lake server boards (also 8ch, 7 slot) and they seem to be about 2x a mid range consumer Z chipset board, and boards for 34xx may be in this ball park. Hopefully boards for 24xx CPUs will be somewhat lower than this and make it viable.

 

Even if marketed as workstation, that some allow CPU OC brings it closer to what HEDT used to be like. Retaining ECC is a bonus over HEDT.

[leadeater]

6 hours ago, porina said:

I'm not sure the ram channels themselves are that costly. 8 mem slot boards don't have to be expensive, even if there is additional tracking required for 8ch 1DPC vs 4ch 2DPC.

Most 8 channel boards are going to be 2DPC though.

 

6 hours ago, porina said:

I said before I don't need high core counts. I think the logical candidates for me are either the 2455X or 3435X, as lowest OC enabled CPU in each platform.

Well I wouldn't call 20-24 cores high core counts now days 

 

6 hours ago, porina said:

Even if marketed as workstation, that some allow CPU OC brings it closer to what HEDT used to be like. Retaining ECC is a bonus over HEDT.

 

6 hours ago, porina said:

Memory bandwidth with standard ram is >50% extra, more possible if it allows XMP

These use RDIMM, or are supposed to, so XMP and memory OC isn't really going to be a big thing. I'm not even sure you can OC RDIMMs and LRDIMMs 

 

Not that you'll be greatly limited by UDIMMs but if you want ECC then you'll being giving up memory OC, UDIMM or RDIMM most likely. ECC and OC just don't go together and I've never seen any ECC UDIMMs come with XMP profiles.

[porina]

11 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Most 8 channel boards are going to be 2DPC though.

That's fine. "Most" is not "all", and even if it is a niche I hope 8 channel 1DPC can exist.

 

11 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Well I wouldn't call 20-24 cores high core counts now days 

Relatively speaking. Consumer tier is pretty much still up to 16 cores and I feel that's plenty for me at the moment. Before anyone says Alder/Raptor Lake offers more, I'd keep it to P-core equivalents.

 

11 minutes ago, leadeater said:

These use RDIMM, or are supposed to, so XMP and memory OC isn't really going to be a big thing. I'm not even sure you can OC RDIMMs and LRDIMMs 

I did say "if". A detail that is often missed, not just now.

 

11 minutes ago, leadeater said:

ECC and OC just don't go together and I've never seen any ECC UDIMMs come with XMP profiles.

I'm thinking of one or the other, not both at the same time. They are going in opposite directions. Ram OC would be a nice feature along the lines of historic HEDT, but I'm ok with skipping that and take ECC instead.

[CommanderAlex]

21 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Well I wouldn't call 20-24 cores high core counts now days 

 

3 minutes ago, porina said:

Relatively speaking. Consumer tier is pretty much still up to 16 cores and I feel that's plenty for me at the moment. Before anyone says Alder/Raptor Lake offers more, I'd keep it to P-core equivalents.

Yeah even for a high end build, it's a ton of cores that most users would probably never end up using. 

[porina]

3 minutes ago, CommanderAlex said:

Yeah even for a high end build, it's a ton of cores that most users would probably never end up using. 

Even these rumoured offerings go as low as 6 or 12 cores depending on series for those wanting to make use of the other platform advantages other than core count. 

 

For a high end gaming focused build, until earlier this year I thought 8 cores was all anyone needed and more was just excessive. Now I'm not so sure. I've seen performance scaling in one title where 12 cores continued to give improvement over 8. I do wonder how many titles would show this? 4090 release showed us a CPU can be fast enough that today's best CPUs can be limiting, although it can be argued where the balance of fast vs wide goes. Still, 8 core CPUs are off my future shopping list if I want to move forward. Things don't remain static forever. Maybe in 10 years I'll be going "how did I manage with only 12 cores?" in a similar way it wasn't that long ago we thought 4 cores were fine. Ryzen is less than 6 years old. My 7920X is only 6 months younger than 1st gen Ryzen, although I did buy it later.

[CommanderAlex]

Just now, porina said:

Even these rumoured offerings go as low as 6 or 12 cores depending on series for those wanting to make use of the other platform advantages other than core count. 

 

For a high end gaming focused build, until earlier this year I thought 8 cores was all anyone needed and more was just excessive. Now I'm not so sure. I've seen performance scaling in one title where 12 cores continued to give improvement over 8. I do wonder how many titles would show this? 4090 release showed us a CPU can be fast enough that today's best CPUs can be limiting, although it can be argued where the balance of fast vs wide goes. Still, 8 core CPUs are off my future shopping list if I want to move forward. Things don't remain static forever. Maybe in 10 years I'll be going "how did I manage with only 12 cores?" in a similar way it wasn't that long ago we thought 4 cores were fine. Ryzen is less than 6 years old. My 7920X is only 6 months younger than 1st gen Ryzen, although I did buy it later.

Oh for sure, even those lower core count processors; the platform itself can provide a LOT more functionality geared towards those that need it. 

[Kisai]

16 minutes ago, CommanderAlex said:

 

Yeah even for a high end build, it's a ton of cores that most users would probably never end up using. 

Oh there's certainly things you can throw more cores at. But they're limited to:

- Streaming (you'd be amazed at how utterly wasteful streaming with OBS is, literately every layer uses a core)

- Programming

- Browser tabs

- Video editing

- Music DAW (VST's are another case of 1-per-core)

- Machine learning projects that actually use the CPU

 

If someone is buying a HEDT, they basically buying a workstation, and using it for a workstation purpose.

 

But the main appeal of HEDT is having the extra PCIe lanes for GPU's and pretty much no game can utilize SLI/Crossfire anymore. So the main selling point of a HEDT is basically people who stream games instead. Since you can certainly use 2 or 3 GPU's in the process of streaming a game (eg 1 GPU for the game, 1 for streaming, and 1 for all the other things things like RTX video/audio effects.)

 

But even then, that's something that has to be justified over buying 2 or 3 separate computers, and I can tell you that "3 computers" is a bit annoying to operate on a stream by one person.