Where did this "Linux is only free if you don't value your time" propaganda came from?

[Sauron]

9 minutes ago, manikyath said:

it just so happens that not very many games are made for linux, and that a majority stake of the people on this forum would at least have that as a consideration.

Sure. What does it have to do with valuing your time? You'd think you'd value the thing you want to work actually working before issues of time comes into the equation.

9 minutes ago, manikyath said:

exactly my point. keep in mind.. this is exactly the topic: where does "linux is only free if you dont value your time" come from: because if you are fine with a free alternative that takes a bit more time.. it's free. but if that time directly corelates to a monetary value.. linux (and the alternatives) is a very costly path to travel on.

No because in the case of Linux it doesn't "take a bit more time", it's just not compatible with something you need. Using GIMP instead of photoshop on the other hand does mostly just take a bit longer to eventually do most of the same things; in that case the assertion would be more accurate, but then again it assumes a proficiency with photoshop that a lot of people wouldn't have anyway. Microsoft Office is also just slow compared to google docs if you're doing something simple.

13 minutes ago, manikyath said:

it's simply the fact that if you use linux, there is an expectation of basic knowledge and time investment that is not necessary with windows.

On the contrary, the "basic knowledge" you're assumed to have with Windows is so assumed that you're not even taking it into consideration. You learned to use computers with Windows, hence you just assume that's how an operating system works/ought to work. If you give Windows to someone who only ever used macs you'll find they need to be told things you deem obvious, and vice versa. This is a consequence of Microsoft having a quasi-monopoly for decades, not an inherent characteristic of either Windows or Linux.

16 minutes ago, manikyath said:

I'm a big proponent of linux in the right place, but ignoring the opportunity cost that may come with that is a good way to worsen the public image of "being difficult" because you're shoehorning it in places where it doesnt belong.

I just don't like the framing that there's something wrong with Linux because it can't easily and instantly run software written for another platform, or that it's inherently more time consuming for all uses. Linux can often save you a lot of time over Windows; it just depends on what you need.

22 minutes ago, Caroline said:

Cool story bro, but I've never had to click through 5 links and browse through malicious ads (adblockers exist) to download adware or a virus.

Ah yes, installing an adblocker is a totally intuitive and inherently necessary step of installing an unrelated program... and clearly you've never had to download freeware on softpedia or look for a specific older version of a driver, otherwise you wouldn't be so dismissive of how sketchy the whole thing is. No matter how you spin it, the idea that Windows' style of installing software is better or more intuitive than Linux' is absurd. You're just used to it so you don't mind it.

24 minutes ago, Caroline said:

GUI "stores" are a thing I'll never like, again, it's just some distros trying to appeal to normies by cloning rancid smartphone stores.

Phone app stores are derived from repository systems like the ones Linux distros have been using for 25 years, not the other way around. And... it really is amazing how you can jump from "typing a command is too hard" to "they're appealing to normies with their stupid GUIs" in the span of a few minutes.

27 minutes ago, Caroline said:

And, if I want to use Windows, Office, Photoshop or whatever I can still do it for free 

...ironically, by spending more time on it.

[manikyath]

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

No because in the case of Linux it doesn't "take a bit more time", it's just not compatible with something you need. Using GIMP instead of photoshop on the other hand does mostly just take a bit longer to eventually do most of the same things; in that case the assertion would be more accurate, but then again it assumes a proficiency with photoshop that a lot of people wouldn't have anyway. Microsoft Office is also just slow compared to google docs if you're doing something simple.

here's the thing... 

if you return to my first post, which by this point i'm sure you havent even read all the way.. because i said this:

Quote

daily driving linux on a computer you *actually* use for more than a webbrowser..

ofcourse google docs is fine if you're just slamming something in a sheet or make a quick word document..

now.. i need to preface: delimiting and titles SUCK in office.. but doing it in libre office is hideous, and doing it in google docs.. is just a joke. i 'daily drove' libeoffice since college.. the moment i stepped into a life where making a nicely formatted document was actually important, and i preferred not wasting time doing so, the office 2007 key came out the box again. there's so many basic things that are a breeze to do in MS office, that SUUCK in libre, and google sheets.. basicly becomes manual labor the moment you try to do more than a crudely formatted spreadsheet.

 

because you seem to need a victory here, i'll give you one victory: google sheets can format lines based on a configured pattern. so you can format a range as red-white-red-white-...

EXCEPT.. that's google's answer to tables in excel. i've made a freaking movie database in excel using nothing but tables and a drag&drop form with 4 lines of VBA, on an afternoon.. it even autocorrects your code.

 

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

On the contrary, the "basic knowledge" you're assumed to have with Windows is so assumed that you're not even taking it into consideration. You learned to use computers with Windows, hence you just assume that's how an operating system works/ought to work

my dayjob is supporting people who use windows devices, but in the majority of them.. they would rather not use devices at all. i'm talking the level of computer inept where "shutting down" the computer is a very complicated technical detail. i'm talking "went trough college with pen & paper" people.

the great majority of these technologically inept people (they're good at other things i suck at, dont see this as an insult to my customers) have managed to figure out how to use some fairly advanced features in their office package.

 

also.. i learned to use computers with windows XP and vista.. which are about as different from win10/11 as xfce is, UI wise. the difference is.. in windows everything i need is in a frikking UI. i picked up on win8.1 in a few days, i picked up on win10 in a few days... i tried switching from xfce to gnome once on a linux side, i gave up after a week.. i cannot get into how gnome is meant to work.

and what you're apparently ignoring in every one of my posts.. i'm a linux user.. i USE LINUX DAILY.. i have a divine hatred for the direction microsoft is going.. but i simply use that software which does the task i need done with the least fuss, so there's a lot of windows around despite my hatred.

2 hours ago, Sauron said:

I just don't like the framing that there's something wrong with Linux because it can't easily and instantly run software written for another platform, or that it's inherently more time consuming for all uses. Linux can often save you a lot of time over Windows; it just depends on what you need.

the first half of that.. is a misinterpretation. the problem isnt linux cant run stuff for other platforms. the problem is stuff is made for other platforms. it's not a problem with linux, it's a problem with the right tool for the job. in the statement "linux is only free if you dont value your time" 

 

the second half:  exactly.. stick it on a server, that's where it belongs.. which is what i've been saying from the start. the thing is.. on the server side of things, quite often this "right tool for the job" concept is well understood, which is also why you see different segments of the server space have vastly different OS usage graphs... and on the server side (especially in professional areas) linux stuff tends to get implemented along with a pretty hefty maintenance deal with the supplier (for example, red hat.) because.. you gessed it: they value their time. so the specific argument of this debate isnt even valid there.

 

back to the topic of linux desktop then.. the only thing i regularly use a linux desktop for.. is dd and gparted. everything else is easier and faster on my windows machines.

 

and yes.. i do want to add: this is largely a situation that happened because of businesses. the thing is.. you guessed it.. businesses value their time.

[Sauron]

11 hours ago, manikyath said:

because you seem to need a victory here, i'll give you one victory: google sheets can format lines based on a configured pattern. so you can format a range as red-white-red-white-...

Uh... I really don't care about a "victory" and my point would stand even if google docs was objectively worse than MS office in every way.

11 hours ago, manikyath said:

if you return to my first post, which by this point i'm sure you havent even read all the way.. because i said this:

I did read it and it doesn't change my point. You can do plenty of things with a Linux system that are no slower (and often faster) than on Windows and don't require a browser. The issues arise when you want to use specific programs that are not available for Linux; I'm trying to show you that for some people those programs may not be necessary or make any sense to use even if they were using Windows, so the difference is null. If I'm going to use google docs for my office needs anyway then using Linux costs me no extra time, no matter if it's measurably worse than Office or not - and if I do need ms Office then the thing that's costing me time is not Linux, it's google docs.

11 hours ago, manikyath said:

also.. i learned to use computers with windows XP and vista.. which are about as different from win10/11 as xfce is, UI wise.

The exact layout may be different but the general feature set is still mostly the same and it behaves in mostly the same way. Installing programs was mentioned, which has not meaningfully changed on Windows since Windows 98 (unless you consider the windows store which has almost nothing people care about and nobody uses)... whereas it's completely different on Linux. If you take an "inept user" and put them in front of an xfce desktop I expect them to have more or less the same problems as they do on Windows... finding the shutdown button is roughly the same process.

11 hours ago, manikyath said:

in windows everything i need is in a frikking UI.

So it is on all major Linux distributions unless you're doing something that would be done in the registry editor in Windows. The registry editor is worse than editing a text file (which by the way can also be done in a gui if you want) or typing one command to start a systemd service, and either way it's not something an inexperienced user should be touching.

11 hours ago, manikyath said:

and what you're apparently ignoring in every one of my posts.. i'm a linux user.. i USE LINUX DAILY.. i have a divine hatred for the direction microsoft is going.. but i simply use that software which does the task i need done with the least fuss, so there's a lot of windows around despite my hatred.

And you seem to be ignoring the fact that I'm straight up saying you should just use Windows if you need programs that only work well on it. Which is not the same as saying that Linux inherently wastes your time.

11 hours ago, manikyath said:

the first half of that.. is a misinterpretation. the problem isnt linux cant run stuff for other platforms. the problem is stuff is made for other platforms. it's not a problem with linux, it's a problem with the right tool for the job.

Which is what I said:

15 hours ago, Sauron said:

the issues you might encounter on Linux mostly revolve about just not being able to run a specific program you need - in which case it's not about time at all, you're just using the wrong tool for the job.

I think we mostly agree, it's just the framing I don't like; Linux can be free if you value your time too, in fact sometimes it can waste less of your time than Windows would. It all depends on your use case.

11 hours ago, manikyath said:

and on the server side (especially in professional areas) linux stuff tends to get implemented along with a pretty hefty maintenance deal with the supplier (for example, red hat.)

Which I mentioned in my first post. In places where licensing fees might actually add up, Linux is not free, both because support teams save you time and also because they save you from costly mistakes.

[Stahlmann]

A gray market windows key is about $5-$15 depending on where you're buying it from. I bought my Windows 7 Pro x64 key for 16€ many years ago, linked it to my microsoft account as soon as that feature was added and then used that account on every iteration of my PC. There is literally no reason to pay $130 for a Windows license. You don't get anything out of the extra money spent. And again, even old Windows 7 keys can still be used to activate Windows 10. So (imo) Windows is at least cheap enough to be considered "free".

 

I mean we could pretend that Windows costs $130, but realistically everyone just buys a gray market key. We all know it, why pretend otherwise?

 

You can praise Linux all you want. It has it's uses where it's great. But gaming isn't it. Windows is by far the best OS for a gaming PC. Everyone saying Linux is equally as good is running on a big dose of copium.

[daedulus]

A lot of it came from the early 90s when trying to get Linux going was a true PITA due to a lack of PNP hardware support, drivers, and package management wasn't really mature (early dpkg/rpm caused a lot of issues and dependency hell was a major thing (true for windows as well with versions of system32 dlls, etc))
You had SLS, Yggsdrasil, Debian, Red Hat, SUSE leading a lot of the way forward, although early Debian was absolutely awful to install.

Mostly ended up being used in mom and pop ISPs providing dial up services.

it really started to change with the release of Ubuntu Warty Warthog back in 2004, driver support was still lacking, and prior to X autoconf getting an accelerated display was a bit hit and miss, but it would boot to a desktop on most of the machines I tried it on at the time with a couple of exceptions.

 

These days KDE and GNOME are lightyears ahead of early releases in terms of end user usability, and X works on pretty much any stock graphics card, onboard audio works (thanks alsa/pulseaudio) barring broken ACPI BIOS/UEFI that needs quirks (Windows also suffers this issue but the System Integrator usually validates windows on the machine so they add just enough hacks in place to get it to boot).

If you are doing development work, it's extremely usable and from my personal experience is a lot easier to get things going due to generally better toolchains, if you are doing music/graphics production work YMMV, and as a daily driver depends on what you are doing.

Windows Subsystem for Linux is getting to be pretty good as well and with the second generation is running the linux kernel in a VM via Hyper-V with a custom DirectX accelerated X server for graphical application support, as opposed to translating linux system calls to NT system calls (basically an inverse WINE).

You get loads of immature people who are insecure about insert X/unable to get past tribal affiliation, and thus feel the need to attack people for whatever techstack they roll, but at the end of the day if you are productive using it, who cares.

 

[j7588]

I personally use linux Mint and installation was a little rocky but everything went smoothly.. EXCEPT FOR WIFI. but that was resolved and playing games with Steam's Proton tool just works besides one game called Asseto Corsa. if a game does not work, I just put proton in experimental mode and it works!

[Normand_Nadon]

I don't understand this stance neither...
Disclaimer: I am both a Linux and a Windows power User

Disclaimer 2: I will refer to "GNU + Linux" as simply Linux from now on! 

 

I use Linux every day (Pop!OS), and I work, game, compute, code [...] on this machine... Windows was making me loose so much time! 

 

If you come to Linux thinking it works like Windows, you are in for disappointment... Same goes with Mac... When People transition to Mac, they don't expect it to work like Windows... I don't get why they expect that of Linux!

 

Here is what my experience is, after 3 years of being 99.9% on Linux:

 

Work (the business I work for is 100% O365 integrated):

Everything works fine, and I can achieve way more in a day, with less distraction on Linux...

• I use OnlyOffice whenever I need to edit basic Office files... (I hate LibreOffice!)
• If it gets a little more serious, I use O365 online editors
• If I need advanced Excel functions, or PowerBI, I fire a VM with Windows server on it (no bloat) and those programs installed... I do it a couple times a year, not often.

For the rest of my workflow, I use the same tools a Windows User would use! (MS TEams, VS-Codium, the Web, Gimp, obsidian Notes [...]

 

Office equipment work on Linux without even needing a driver... your network printer will just show-up...

 

Sysadmin

As a part of my job, I do sysadmin for the company... Managing On-premise and cloud infrastructure, Linux and Windows based.

Linux is just a better tool for sysadmin as all you need is baked-in the OS!
The only thing I do on a Windows VM in terms of Sysadmin is Azure PowerShell commands (once or twice a year)... PowerShell on Linux is a recipe for disaster in my experience!

 

Gaming:

There are a couple of games I can't play... but I don't care about them (like Destiny 2)

With Steam's Proton... there is rarely a game I can't play... The only thing I do now that I am on Linux, is check before on ProtonDB if the game can work before I buy it... With 7000+ games supported... I don't have enough of 1 lifetime to test them all!

I also own a Steam Deck and most of my Gaming time since I got it was on this amazing handheld!

 

Hardware:

I chose hardware that was suitable for Linux before I purchased... That too is often overlooked... I avoid Nvidia as it is always a ton of trouble on Linux.

Again, you buy a Mac, to use Mac OS... for Linux, you are in luck, more than 90% of the PC hardware on the planet is compatible... Just make a little bit of research before you buy and the experience will be better!

 

TLDR: Linux is just different... It might not be for you... but it is an amazing set of Operating Systems (because, yeah, Linux is not just one OS... there are many flavors of it!)

[MewMew]

Why wouldn't you at least just try it on a vm? It's hard for me to play devil's advocate here; I guess it would be a waste of time to do so but you'd learn SQL and all sorts of other things Windows doesn't allow you to customize.

Linux is like a candy shop, you walk in and pick the candy you want. Some candy doesn't taste that great to you, so try another one. Distros are very diverse. I think the main argument people make in saying that Linux is a waste of time is that all of their information and workflow is already on Windows and they're not open to a new experience. However, learning something new is never a waste of time. It feels like people waste more time coming up with excuses to not learn new things which overwhelm them.

[RollyShed]

On 3/17/2023 at 6:23 PM, Normand_Nadon said:

If you come to Linux thinking it works like Windows, you are in for disappointment...

So how can someone be using Windows one day (used it for decades) and is now using Linux and carrying on as if nothing has changed except it is now a reliable system and doesn't get broken by MS each month?

Someone who couldn't get things done with Windows, got Linux, got things done and from that got a job.

And the other 40+ users I've done installations for?

 

It can be that easy.

 

As for LibreOffice, it works on everything and is more powerful than MS Office. There is a lot that I do with it that that can't be done using MS Office.

[Normand_Nadon]

3 hours ago, RollyShed said:

So how can someone be using Windows one day (used it for decades) and is now using Linux and carrying on as if nothing has changed except it is now a reliable system and doesn't get broken by MS each month?

Someone who couldn't get things done with Windows, got Linux, got things done and from that got a job.

And the other 40+ users I've done installations for?

 

It can be that easy.

 

As for LibreOffice, it works on everything and is more powerful than MS Office. There is a lot that I do with it that that can't be done using MS Office.

You are not the norm.... That is all I can tell you!

Don't get me wrong, I looooove Linux, and I think Windows has stopped being good after Win7...

But making regular people switch to Linux is not simple... People don't like to change their habits because someone else wants them to... It has to come from themselves.

I have seen a lot more Mac users switch to Linux than Windows users... And I think it is because of the similarities between the two platforms (file structure, interactions with hardware, etc).. Habits!

[RollyShed]

1 hour ago, Normand_Nadon said:

You are not the norm.... That is all I can tell you!

 

But making regular people switch to Linux is not simple... People don't like to change their habits because someone else wants them to... It has to come from themselves.

Not the norm? Are the people in this country brainier? Yes, some are, such as those who split the atom and ran Jet Propulsion Labs (NASA) and don't come from America. OK, I'm stirring the pot there....

 

I was describing my partner and she had no problems. The other person, she had no problems. She did ask a couple of questions but not related to Linux. They were about the best way to do something in a document. Others who have had "problems" (questions) would have the same problems trying to do something in Windows.

 

Myself, I've been using Linux for near a decade. I installed it on a spare old computer and realised after a year I'd booted the Windows computer a couple of times so obviously the Linux disk went to the fast computer and the Windows disk on to a very high shelf... somewhere I know not.

 

As they say, "It is all in the mind." Some people simply sit down and switch brain off.

Also who taught those people to use a computer with any system on it?

[sageofredondo]

On 10/8/2022 at 3:12 PM, manikyath said:

because most common tasks genuinely take longer on linux.

 

gaming? expect to be troubleshooting before the game actually works.

office tasks? good luck with LibreOffice. i have both libre and MS office on my computer, libre is a freaking joke, even compared to office 2007.

photo editing? enjoy your subpar alternatives.

 

it's not some toxic opinion or a "dis of linux users". it's a very very sad truth: the reason why linux on the desktop hasnt happened so far, is because up until now, compared to windows or mac, the experience of *actually* daily driving linux on a computer you *actually* use for more than a webbrowser.. linux suuuuuuucks.

 

i have a linux desktop as a media pc, i have a linux laptop, i have a linux server, i have an unraid server. and i'll tell you: server? great. desktop: holy hecking please no, i waste so much time with these devices that i simply dont use them.

 

Gaming yes. Windows updates? Eh, that is longer, esp if you haven't updated Windows in a while. Programming? WSL and chocolatey has made things easier, but Linux is still faster to get setup in development with Linux. Unless you make GUI Windows apps.

[manikyath]

2 minutes ago, sageofredondo said:

Windows updates? Eh, that is longer, esp if you haven't updated Windows in a while.

especially in recent years, MS has put in major effort into optimizing the windows update process. it used to be horrid, but these days even a slow-arse PC is only an hour or so tops for being several months behind.

3 minutes ago, sageofredondo said:

Programming? WSL and chocolatey has made things easier, but Linux is still faster to get setup in development with Linux. Unless you make GUI Windows apps.

i mean.. sure? but programming also isnt a common task, and i'd argue that within the entire "field" of programming, a not insignificant section of programmers are specificly targeting the windows platform or M365 related services.. which sort of requires a windows machine to test on anyways.

 

also.. my post is a year old.. where did you dig this thread up from just to make that comment?

[sageofredondo]

Just now, manikyath said:

especially in recent years, MS has put in major effort into optimizing the windows update process. it used to be horrid, but these days even a slow-arse PC is only an hour or so tops for being several months behind.

 

 

My PC is not slow-arse, a long Windows update is a slow joke and takes several reboots for something that is 20 minutes in Linux and one reboot.

> i mean.. sure? but programming also isnt a common task, and i'd argue that within the entire "field" of programming, a not insignificant section of programmers are

It is mostly insignificant, most development is for web, mobile, or embedded/systems programming. Very few projects pay for new Windows apps, except for games; those are cross platform with some logic to use the Windows headers.

> also.. my post is a year old.. where did you dig this thread up from just to make that comment?

I do not remember, this thread came up in my browsing.

[manikyath]

3 minutes ago, sageofredondo said:

most development is for web, mobile, or embedded/systems programming. Very few projects pay for new Windows apps, except for games; those are cross platform with some logic to use the Windows headers.

i'd argue otherwise. just like the marketshare of windows server, the marketshare of windows programmers is also very, VERY well hidden from public view. a previous employer of mine ran some multi-million euro revenue off some 30-odd developers making M365 integrated trinkets. none of that is something you'll find in public, and they're not *that* big of a fish in belgium, let alone including the rest of the world into the picture.

 

and i'm not even including the market of game development into this.

 

i have no idea on exact numbers, so i'll return to "not insignificant" as a safe bet.

 

4 minutes ago, sageofredondo said:

My PC is not slow-arse, a long Windows update is a slow joke and takes several reboots for something that is 20 minutes in Linux and one reboot.

once set up windows has essentially come down to the point of you not even noticing that it's updated. it's maybe a few minutes extra of shutdown time and that's it. i've recently installed windows 11 on a J5005 (because memes.. go look up on passmark if you want a reference) and i dont think updating on a fresh install took more than 30 minutes or so.. and that's a platform that can barely run a webbrowser with multiple tabs.

[sageofredondo]

4 minutes ago, manikyath said:

i'd argue otherwise. just like the marketshare of windows server, the marketshare of windows programmers is also very, VERY well hidden from public view.

Nah, that should pretty easy to find.

Just get a count of the number of open positions. It easy to prove the dark matter development of Java apps is much larger. Go on indeed, compare 'java developer' to windows developer; location remote. 4 times the number of results: 1,026 vs 4,251. That is just for remote Java development. Python developer has similar numbers. They are not running on Windows. M365 developer gets 35. I consider that very insignificant. If you can't see the market for it on something public like this there is nothing to argue.

For fun I put in Linux kernel developer for remote: 192 jobs.

I have no doubt there are thousands more projects in LAMP stacks than your M365 example. Go take a look at the WordPress plugins market.

 

10 minutes ago, manikyath said:

once set up windows has essentially come down to the point of you not even noticing that it's updated. it's maybe a few minutes extra of shutdown time and that's it.

Not what I was arguing. I do not boot into Windows for months at a time, because for many games, Linux is good enough, but I do want to get through my GOG backlog. If you leave it alone to do development work in a Linux OS it can take half an hour to just check for updates online. It has improved... but still terrible compared to Linux.

[manikyath]

7 minutes ago, sageofredondo said:

Not what I was arguing. I do not boot into Windows for months at a time, because for many games, Linux is good enough,

"BUT SOMETIMES".. look dude.. my point isnt that if you leave a computer sit unused for months (which is what not booting into windows is) that it'll magically auto update in seconds.. but the exact same problem exists on linux, and it is unrelated to the "most common tasks" argument. you're steering this way into a weird ditch just to say that in this one specific usecase windows might have some annoyances.

 

sidenote, letting a linux install rot for a few months, and then doing an "update all the things" is an interesting experience.. recall how i said i dont use my linux devices? well.. i also sort of dont update them, because reinstalling is genuinely faster half a year down the road.

 

11 minutes ago, sageofredondo said:

Just get a count of the number of open positions. It easy to prove the dark matter development of Java apps is much larger. Go on indeed, compare 'java developer' to windows developer; location remote. 4 times the number of results: 1,026 vs 4,251. That is just for remote Java development. Python developer has similar numbers. They are not running on Windows. M365 developer gets 35. I consider that very insignificant. If you can't see the market for it on something public like this there is nothing to argue.

and you blindly assume none of these are within a corporation that might be running a windows domain?

 

you're filtering by job description to deterime what operating system they might be aiming for, while that is horridly, terribly inaccurate.

 

also - there is no universe where a certain area has 4000 listings for java developers, and only 35 for M365. that has to be some huge error margin stuff (which, job websites are GINORMOUS error margin. my area often has a 5x error margin when you go look for number of jobs in a specific sector. i'd assume that checkboxing remote work only makes this catastrophically worse.)

 

case in point: if any of those java developers are for anything mercedes-benz-related.. that's all java garbage on windows garbage. and because daimler are a horrid bunch. i'm using garbage correct here.

[sageofredondo]

1 hour ago, manikyath said:

but the exact same problem exists on linux, and it is unrelated to the "most common tasks" argument. you're steering this way into a weird ditch just to say that in this one specific usecase windows might have some annoyances.

That is actually quite common these days. You will be surprised by how many people do not use general purpose computers these days regularly. They do all their banking and email on a phone. Remember that article about gen z not knowing how to use a keyboard?

 

1 hour ago, manikyath said:

my point isnt that if you leave a computer sit unused for months (which is what not booting into windows is) that it'll magically auto update in seconds.. but the exact same problem exists on linux

 

Nope, no one is arguing Windows update can autoupdate in seconds. That hyperbole is the sign of a mad man. My argument is what takes hours on Windows (including multiple rebooting) can take minutes on Linux. I still remember installing Win10 from an older iso on an old dual core laptop. Windows update literally took hours, just to check for updates. On Linux, minutes. On my gaming machine, it can take around 20 minutes to just check, it is so annoying.

 

1 hour ago, manikyath said:

you're filtering by job description to deterime what operating system they might be aiming for, while that is horridly, terribly inaccurate.

Nope, no one really uses Windows to run a Java, Python, or PHP production web fleet.

 

Too insecure, you have to pay for a license key, and much more difficult to automate. Next you will be saying you run a production Kubernetes cluster on Windows server.
 

1 hour ago, manikyath said:

also - there is no universe where a certain area has 4000 listings for java developers, and only 35 for M365. that has to be some huge error margin stuff (which, job websites are GINORMOUS error margin. my area often has a 5x error margin when you go look for number of jobs in a specific sector. i'd assume that checkboxing remote work only makes this catastrophically worse.)

Welcome to 'no universe'. Really poor argument and takes a lot from your word. But if you want an area, go search San Francisco, the heart of the tech boom. Here's a hint, there are fewer Windows dev jobs there.

[manikyath]

9 minutes ago, sageofredondo said:

You will be surprised by how many people do not use general purpose computers these days regularly. They do all their banking and email on a phone. Remember that article about gen z not knowing how to use a keyboard?

at which point this is a useless debate to have anyways.

 

to come back to the argument at hand:

Quote

 most common tasks

 

[Mihle]

I have tried using Linux but every time I have gotten some issue that require some tweak to fix or some cli command (for example scroll speed on my laptop being way to fast and there being no setting for it in GUI) or some driver issue.

 

While on the other hand I have personally had very few of any issues with Windows itself.

(If you ignore things that for example colour management aren't the best but I haven't gotten far enough in Linux to deal with that there.)

[Cosmic Emotion]

2 hours ago, Mihle said:

I have tried using Linux but every time I have gotten some issue that require some tweak to fix or some cli command (for example scroll speed on my laptop being way to fast and there being no setting for it in GUI) or some driver issue.

 

While on the other hand I have personally had very few of any issues with Windows itself.

(If you ignore things that for example colour management aren't the best but I haven't gotten far enough in Linux to deal with that there.)

Linux used to suck. The scroll setting is there for some time now both in Gnome and Plasma KDE (which I prefer personally). Also NVK (the open source Nvidia driver for Vulkan) is shaping up rather amazingly. It should be out with reclocking support in some months. If you have Nvidia I would try again in 6-12 months.

 

If you have an AMD GPU then definitely try again now. You'll get 10-30% more performance depending on the game. :)

[Mihle]

1 hour ago, Cosmic Emotion said:

Linux used to suck. The scroll setting is there for some time now both in Gnome and Plasma KDE (which I prefer personally). Also NVK (the open source Nvidia driver for Vulkan) is shaping up rather amazingly. It should be out with reclocking support in some months. If you have Nvidia I would try again in 6-12 months.

 

If you have an AMD GPU then definitely try again now. You'll get 10-30% more performance depending on the game.

It wasn't that long time ago I tried, neither Mint nor Ubuntu had setting for scroll speed. Or I couldn't find it and when searching the web people just said "use this command in cli" uhm, if I have to do that with that it will probably happen more with future things and I will just stick to windows then.

There was also other trackpad issues/just didn't work as well as it does in Windows.

I had AMD and none of my issues was related to that. But there were WIFI issues.

 

I will just wait a few more years for trying again.

[Cosmic Emotion]

13 minutes ago, Mihle said:

It wasn't that long time ago I tried, neither Mint nor Ubuntu had setting for scroll speed. Or I couldn't find it and when searching the web people just said "use this command in cli" uhm, if I have to do that with that it will probably happen more with future things and I will just stick to windows then.

There was also other trackpad issues/just didn't work as well as it does in Windows.

I had AMD and none of my issues was related to that. But there were WIFI issues.

 

I will just wait a few more years for trying again.

Ubuntu is useless. I would go for PikaOS if you want something Ubuntu based, but honestly I would try something like Garuda Dragonized. If you have AMD it's really worth it just for the extra performance. No CLI should be needed. Just some googling for Ocotpi (the GUI package manager in Garuda) might come in handy.

[William Payne]

I’d love to know what the people who have such massive problems with windows are doing. In my younger days my pc’s were built by my dad using whatever cheap parts and pirated windows versions he could find. So obviously there were problems now and then. But not many. Then I had an HP laptop for many years who’s only problem was it got ridiculously slow.
 

I left windows and went to Mac for a few years then built my current pc two years ago with a fresh windows 10 pro install on it and it has been the most pain free user experience ever. Currently running 11 pro and it’s fine. If I have issues it’s because I did something dumb. 
 

Though I do think the generic windows home versions in store brought systems may come with extra crap that has problems.

 

But fresh installs are great. 
 

I think the big thing is the people who get hacked and get viruses and all kinds of stuff can’t leave a good thing alone. They click on things they shouldn’t and download things they shouldn’t. 
 

I have no issues with Linux but windows has no problems for me. 
 

 

 

[jsnotlout1]

On 10/8/2022 at 2:48 PM, XA33 said:

I've always thought Linux is genuinely useful for many workflows, and just like the other operating systems, if you just want to surf the web it's the bootloader for your browser. Sometimes I see stupid people (particularly Apple fanboys) who think Linux is only for nerds and you're basically poor if you use it. I don't know but I can't stand this elitist point of view. Anyone can use whatever browser they would like to use.

 

I've also seen this mentality among people who install custom ROMs on their phones.

 

I feel like the tech community really needs to police itself to not let such toxic mentalities show up online.

As someone who has bricked my fair share of Linux (Various Distros) installs. It really is a time-heavy OS. Stuff takes way longer then on Windows where you can just click a button, or install one thing. For example. The Wireless adapter I have in my server required at least 30 minutes to set up. This could be due to my lack of knowledge. But gathering all the firmware and dependencies was a very long and tedious process.