Where did this "Linux is only free if you don't value your time" propaganda came from?

[XA33]

I've always thought Linux is genuinely useful for many workflows, and just like the other operating systems, if you just want to surf the web it's the bootloader for your browser. Sometimes I see stupid people (particularly Apple fanboys) who think Linux is only for nerds and you're basically poor if you use it. I don't know but I can't stand this elitist point of view. Anyone can use whatever browser they would like to use.

 

I've also seen this mentality among people who install custom ROMs on their phones.

 

I feel like the tech community really needs to police itself to not let such toxic mentalities show up online.

[manikyath]

because most common tasks genuinely take longer on linux.

 

gaming? expect to be troubleshooting before the game actually works.

office tasks? good luck with LibreOffice. i have both libre and MS office on my computer, libre is a freaking joke, even compared to office 2007.

photo editing? enjoy your subpar alternatives.

 

it's not some toxic opinion or a "dis of linux users". it's a very very sad truth: the reason why linux on the desktop hasnt happened so far, is because up until now, compared to windows or mac, the experience of *actually* daily driving linux on a computer you *actually* use for more than a webbrowser.. linux suuuuuuucks.

 

i have a linux desktop as a media pc, i have a linux laptop, i have a linux server, i have an unraid server. and i'll tell you: server? great. desktop: holy hecking please no, i waste so much time with these devices that i simply dont use them.

[bmx6454]

35 minutes ago, XA33 said:

I feel like the tech community really needs to police itself to not let such toxic mentalities show up online.

everyone should be allowed to voice their opinions freely, you can either try to counter it, or ignore it, but censoring is never the answer. also not sure how you pull "right wing" out of a topic regarding operating systems lol, people push politics into everything..  appreciate the edit.

[XA33]

3 minutes ago, bmx6454 said:

everyone should be allowed to voice their opinions freely, you can either try to counter it, or ignore it, but censoring is never the answer. also not sure how you pull "right wing" out of a topic regarding operating systems lol, people push politics into everything....

Yeah, i should have not said that, edited.

 

But I don't like this mentality, Linux is great for some workflows, and people who say that it's only for "time-wasters" is another way to tell them that their hobby sucks or that they are poor...

[bmx6454]

3 minutes ago, XA33 said:

Yeah, i should have not said that, edited.

 

But I don't like this mentality, Linux is great for some workflows, and people who say that it's only for "time-wasters" is another way to tell them that their hobby sucks or that they are poor...

it's not for everyone, but i agree that people are quick to throw shade at things they can't/don't want to understand. an example would be that i do all my own work on my cars, more for hobby than anything else, but there are people who have said that's for poor people who don't want to spend the money on a shop lol. people with that mentality exist in every corner of life, i have learned to ignore them.

[RollyShed]

Linux takes time to install, at least 8 minutes. How much do you pay MS for doing a Windows installation for you?

 

As for LibreOffice, easy and it works and is more powerful, more features, than MS Office. Can you edit PDFs in Office? Is there a database in Office? LO does documents, spreadsheets, PowerPoint productions, and all of the above extras. PDF edits? I've done hundreds. Yes hundreds and I can point you to the websites they are on.

 

Photo editing? It does depend on how edited you want a picture to be. However using the right apps will do everything most will want. The possible problem is knowing what the options are and the best for the job. There is a very good discussion forum for Mint so questions such as that can be asked and suggestions given. And every month I do a number of picture edits for articles for publications and websites.

 

Installing apps, if in the repository, one click and a password. If downloading a deb file the only difference from an exe file is a password needs to be entered.

 

Do you want a new folder? Linux two clicks and done. Windows, about 5 clicks and includes a scroll down to find the option.

 

Also updates, if a lot and a long time, possibly up to 5 minutes with Linux. Windows? Half a day (and a crash or two)?

 

Maybe that leaves the question, manikyath, what takes longer in Linux than Windows? Nothing that I've found.

 

How many Linux installations have I done? 50+ Oldest computer? Probably a 2008 HP which was done last week. Boot up time, remembering it is slow and old - 44 seconds and that was from totally off as the battery has long gone and it has to be plugged in to go.

[BondiBlue]

2 hours ago, RollyShed said:

Do you want a new folder? Linux two clicks and done. Windows, about 5 clicks and includes a scroll down to find the option.

Lol, what? What are you talking about? It takes two clicks to make a folder on Windows as well. 

[RollyShed]

26 minutes ago, BondiBlue said:

Lol, what? What are you talking about? It takes two clicks to make a folder on Windows as well. 

Windows -

Right click and a menu

Scroll down to New, click

Another menu

Click on New Folder

OK 3 clicks and a scroll down.

[BondiBlue]

19 minutes ago, RollyShed said:

Windows -

Right click and a menu

Scroll down to New, click

Another menu

Click on New Folder

OK 3 clicks and a scroll down.

You don't even have to click on the "new" option for that list to expand. Also, you don't have to scroll anywhere. You move the mouse. On Linux you also have to move the mouse pointer to where you want to click. That's not scrolling. 

 

Right click, put the mouse on "new", and then click new folder. You're trying to make it sound like simple operations on Windows are far more complicated than they are. 

[Nayr438]

11 minutes ago, RollyShed said:

Windows -

Right click and a menu

Scroll down to New, click

Another menu

Click on New Folder

OK 3 clicks and a scroll down.

KDE Dolphin -> Right Click -> Hover over Create New -> Select Folder

Windows Explorer -> Right Click -> Hover over New -> Select Folder

[xAcid9]

33 minutes ago, Nayr438 said:

KDE Dolphin -> Right Click -> Hover over Create New -> Select Folder

Windows Explorer -> Right Click -> Hover over New -> Select Folder

Mouse peasant. 

 

KDE Dolphin > Press F10 > Enter

 

4 hours ago, RollyShed said:

Can you edit PDFs in Office?

Yes. You can open a PDF with Office and it will convert them automatically to be editable. 

 

5 hours ago, Caroline said:

you can't simply download a file, double-click on it and install it, you have to run at least 5 terminal commands. Oh, and God help you if you want to run a game.

It is possible to simply download a file and double click to install it though. 

[GoodBytes]

Windows: Ctrl + Shift + N

Here is a nice list of everything that is wrong with Linux based OSs for Desktop PC usage: https://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html

 

As much as some Linux fan will get angry for saying this the truth is, Linux as a Desktop/Laptop PC environment, is treated as second class. 

 

Linux isn't focused on this. This is like using Windows for servers purposes, or in IoT devices. Sure, it works, but it is the wrong choice, and not only you'll buy a license of Windows, but it will be a chore to get everything working. The OS isn't designed for this. It's that simple.

 

In the world software dev world, Windows with WSL is what is used, unless there is specific needs that is not possible to setup (and that is diminishing rapidly as Microsoft is actively doing improvements). Or, they use a Mac, to use OSX and Unix through that. Or Windows with Linux distro running under a VM. Everything to AVOID Linux as a desktop environment. 

 

Linux is an amazing kernel, and most of its distros are also a joy, but it has its place, much like Windows does. Both sucks horribly, both are amazing.

 

If you disagree, then you are close minded, or your info/knowledge is outdated by many years.

 

To say that people have no problem spending money for Windows, means that they see value in it. Same for OSX, people are ready to buy premium priced system just for the OS. It has its strengths. We all have different values, choice is great! If you enjoy Linux based OS, despite its treatment in priority by the community, then good! It certainly has its strengths despite this.

[SansVarnic]

On 10/8/2022 at 1:48 PM, XA33 said:

particularly Apple fanboys

You're not new but you post very rarely here so I l cut you some slack, please refrain from using this phrase in the forum in the future. Refer to our Community Standards for additional insight into the forum rules.

[OhioYJ]

On 10/8/2022 at 3:12 PM, manikyath said:

because most common tasks genuinely take longer on linux.

Depends on what your used to. I've used Linux so long, editing photos, video, audio, etc is much quicker for me in Linux. There are so many things in Windows that just make no sense and take way longer than they should in my opinion. However its likely because I don't use Windows on a regular basis, so it's because I'm used to Linux. To me Linux just works.

 

Now I'll admit for Gaming, I do boot into Windows.

[RollyShed]

1 hour ago, OhioYJ said:

Depends on what your used to. I've used Linux so long, editing photos, video, audio, etc is much quicker for me in Linux. There are so many things in Windows that just make no sense and take way longer than they should in my opinion.

Exactly, that plus reliability.

 

Windows each month loosing / wiping printer drivers or screen drivers or eventually totally wiping the disk of everything (2018) and then, check Google about it, again and again. My partner after a total wipe-out by MS, 2018, went to Linux and what happened? She simply booted up the computer in Linux and carried on using it as if nothing had changed except it kept going, month after month, year after year. It kept going, nothing being broken.

 

What about viruses? Err, what are those?

 

GoodBytes link gives a list of a lot of problems. Odd, I've never come across most of them in the past decade. Printer drivers are sometimes a bit of a pain.

 

One other thing, buying apps. OK maybe some for specialised operations. Not much luck here where one bought (an accounting programme) it took them about 5 years to get it right. If you get help from the company or have someone come in to help you pay. Except my partner never had to because it was always their fault. If the apps are free they will work because if they don't, no one will use them.

[Biohazard777]

4 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

In the world software dev world, Windows with WSL is what is used, unless there is specific needs that is not possible to setup (and that is diminishing rapidly as Microsoft is actively doing improvements). Or, they use a Mac, to use OSX and Unix through that. Or Windows with Linux distro running under a VM. Everything to AVOID Linux as a desktop environment. 

 

Linux is an amazing kernel, and most of its distros are also a joy, but it has its place, much like Windows does. Both sucks horribly, both are amazing.

 

If you disagree, then you are close minded, or your info/knowledge is outdated by many years.

WSL is for lamers.
If you disagree, then you are a lamer!

[manikyath]

6 hours ago, OhioYJ said:

Depends on what your used to. I've used Linux so long, editing photos, video, audio, etc is much quicker for me in Linux. There are so many things in Windows that just make no sense and take way longer than they should in my opinion. However its likely because I don't use Windows on a regular basis, so it's because I'm used to Linux. To me Linux just works.

 

Now I'll admit for Gaming, I do boot into Windows.

very true, especially lately windows has been going direction bonehead. (for example the new context menu in win11 that's just *worse*)

but, given an equal experience, i'd say the majority of things are faster and easier on windows, including collecting said experience.

now... given the direction ms seems to be headed, i give linux real opportunity to turn that around. case in point: my work laptop with win11 and Office365 (and not much else) is hardly a smooth experience, seemingly due to the deployment guys blindly trusting ms, and ms's inability to release somethibg that's tested.

 

but... as of now, windows is still the inbred dysfunctional wheelchair-riding king waiting for it's lineage to finally die off.

[Giganthrax]

Desktop Linux is definitely a lot more involved than Windows or MacOS. But that's part of its charm. It's an OS for tinkerers, no question about it.

 

That being said, they're really making gigantic strides. I've only been using desktop Linux for a couple of years and it's already gone from requiring significant tinkering to just having all of the features I need built-in right from the gate. Steam games I played just run as-is without the need for any tinkering. I even played pirated Windows games without any specific setup, just installed them the way I would on Windows and they just worked.

 

Obviously, if you need Adobe or MS Office specifically, Linux is no good. For me and my work, the google office suite does it all, and I've never had any issues with LibreOffice either.

 

Frankly, if not for FACEIT and some games that still require windows (such as the ones from Epic Store), I would probably switch my main PC to Linux. I hope this will become possible before Win10 loses support.

[maplepants]

Quote

"Linux is only free if you don't value your time"

This isn't "propaganda", it's just true about desktop Linux. It's untrue for Linux servers or containers, but it's just a true statement about desktop Linux.

 

I like my Ubuntu desktop, but it takes more effort to maintain than my Mac or Windows desktops. It's a trade off for me between that work and the features Ubuntu offers. But for some users, price is unquestionably one of those features. 

[OhioYJ]

1 hour ago, maplepants said:

I like my Ubuntu desktop, but it takes more effort to maintain than my Mac or Windows desktops. It's a trade off for me between that work and the features Ubuntu offers. But for some users, price is unquestionably one of those features. 

It's been a long time since I've used Ubuntu, but I'm currently using a distro based on Ubuntu. I do game on Windows and every time I build a new machine I cringe at how long it takes to setup or update a Windows machine. Linux, all the updates install in one go. All the software I want to install, I select all at once in the package manage it downloads and installs in one go. The machine is basically ready to go. Windows however, is a never ending loop of reboots, updates, install this, reboot. In my opinion my Linux machines are much less work and upkeep than any of the windows machines in the house any day.

[RollyShed]

16 hours ago, maplepants said:

I like my Ubuntu desktop, but it takes more effort to maintain than my Mac or Windows desktops.

Maintenance? What maintenance?

OK, I'm not using Ubuntu, I'm using Mint and it just goes, and keeps on going.

 

Maintenance? OK, do updates every few weeks... maybe... and they take a long time, possibly a minute to run after saying "go", maybe a minute and 10 seconds, probably less than a minute.

 

Does Linux take up quite a bit of my time? Yes, doing installations for everyone and installing the SSDs to replacement their HDs and then copying across their files and folders. But it is easy, very easy to do. This week another two installations.

[solado]

I can only talk about my own experiences with Linux as I decided to try switch earlier this year as a daily driver... It was a nightmare.

 

World of warcraft worked perfect for the first few weeks and all of a sudden the battle.net launcher stopped working for no reason, it would close down and turned out to be a problem with an update. Had to spend hours fighting with it and eventually got it working.

 

My 3090 for some reason kept taking more power, the wattage seemed to be higher which I assume was down to bad drivers.

 

My audio devices didn't work correctly. I have a soundblaster g6 and it didn't have surround sound working correctly. My GoXLR mini didn't work at all. My strream deck didn't have any software to work with.

 

I also can't do work on Linux. I am a video editor and use the adobe packages, switching isn't an option to another program as my clients all use adobe products. None of them work under linux.

 

Yeah most of this is down to vendor support rather than Linux it's self but none of this would be a problem under winodows, switched back and not had a problem like above since. Under linux it was hours of fumbling around trying not to break anything.

[maplepants]

On 10/15/2022 at 6:14 PM, OhioYJ said:

In my opinion my Linux machines are much less work and upkeep than any of the windows machines in the house any day.

 

On 10/16/2022 at 6:11 AM, RollyShed said:

Maintenance? What maintenance?

Everyone's workload is different, but these are a few of the tasks that more work on my Ubuntu desktop than they do on my Mac or Windows desktop.

 

* Backups

* Interacting with Exchange mail servers

* Anything gaming related (to the point where I just stopped trying to game on Linux)

* Photo editing (GIMP is not Lightroom)

* Video editing (da vinci resolve only officially supports CentOS and it takes some doing to get it working on any other distro)

* Interacting in any way with my phone or iPad

* Interacting with Google Drive

* Interacting with iCloud Drive

 

At this point, I have more or less stable work arounds for these issues but the point I'm making isn't that it's impossible to run a Ubuntu or Linux desktop. Rather that for me, and other Linux desktop users, some trade off is being made with their time. Cost isn't the benefit I personally get out of that deal, but it absolutely is for some.

[wseaton]

I've been a senior sys admin for multiple billion dollar plus companies, managed tens of thousands of Windows clients and dealt with a share of Linux support. The technical comments in this thread are beyond the hysterical.

 

News flash folks. Adults run applications and the PC is a dying platform. That being said the number of enterprise environments using Linux over windows ive encountered are few and far between. Windows is the most popular desktop end point on the planet. Only time I see Linux on desktops is for cash starved 501c sites, thin clients or development. I see more 'nix in the data center, where it belongs and compliments Windows nicely.

 

Windows is easier than Linux to support, deploy, and above all it runs a broader spectrum of apps. Game over. Apps control the univers. Not operating systems. 

 

The only common footprint i see with Linux is VMware, which is based on  Linux , and the majority of guests I see running on VMware are Windows servers. 

 

Any company that claims they run Linux to reduce licensing costs is on the virge of chapter 11 or is about to bounce payroll checks.  

 

I could care less what you run on your own desktop in your basement. As for being arrogant, that award goes to the Linux community. They hate Microsoft, but in my experience can't manage the POS at a McDonalds. You guys don't even know what shadow copy is, but you continue to tell Windows users to use junk distros for menial tasks like cloning because you don't know better. Can't wait to hear you talk about your alternatives to SCCM. 

 

As for security problems, embedded Linux devices ranging from smart plugs to unpatched routers are by far the biggest security hole on the planet. Bash /shell-shock is still the most expensive platform security problem I've ever had to deal with. The windows issues are easy to fix. 

 

 

[Chiyawa]

Well, for my experience:

 

Windows is more like automatic transmission, while Linux is manual transmission. A lot of things you need to tweak or solve in order to get it to work as it should.

 

I tried Ubuntu, while the GUI is okay, it is also a bit more clunky.

- The very first thing you need to know is how Linux folder system is structured.

- Drivers (especially some printer driver and quite often many obscure device driver that only works with Windows). Although we have universal printer driver CUPS (Common Unix Printer System), it's difficult to use and configure.

- Many USB keyboards and mouse (especially gaming RGB one) will not have software support. You need to use open source RGB lighting software which may not work with your RGB gaming keyboard.

- No Ryzen Master to tune your CPU. Control the GPU is difficult as well since you don't have Radeon Adrenaline software.

- Some audio driver will have issue, so you will get no sound at all. You can use the generic USB audio if your internal audio chip fail to initialised.

- The Ubuntu app store is a bit clunky as well but with a little time, you can navigate the app store.

- You need a good knowledge on CLI (Command Line Interface) such as terminal as Linux works better with CLI.

 

Other distros:

- I tried Mint, but like Ubuntu, the interface is still clunky and require time to get to use of everything.

- Steam OS are design more for gaming. I find it very simple to use and the GUI is clean, though it might be hard to navigate to other apps like Libre Office to do office works.

 

Of course, those are minor compare to the stuff below:

- Ubuntu (20.04 LTS) has issue update the OS and the OS got corrupted. The core still works and you can still use CLI to repair the OS, but you really need to know what you're doing. Searching through the Internet is mediocre at best. I ended up re-installing the whole OS (good thing that was just an experimental partition that holds no important data).

- Wine sometimes work like a charm, other time works so horrendously.

 

So that's my experience. Linux actually is very powerful, but it may be too powerful for average Joe to utilised completely. Did you know you can boot Linux core in just 3 seconds even when using HDD? You can immediately start using a Linux by then, though it doesn't have any GUI for you to navigate. So it is robust, powerful, and extremely fast, but you need to know what you're doing, which take time to learn.

 

As for "Linux is only free if you don't value your time" goes, yeah, that's quite true. There are paid Linux distribution such as Red Hat which geared towards enterprise, and you can actually request help from them to troubleshoot your system so you don't have to crack your head figuring out what you need to do. Like I said, you need to know what you're doing, and if something not working right, you can spend hours just to get it right.