Where did this "Linux is only free if you don't value your time" propaganda came from?

[RollyShed]

On 10/19/2022 at 5:25 PM, Chiyawa said:

Well, for my experience:

Other distros:

- I tried Mint, but like Ubuntu, the interface is still clunky and require time to get to use of everything.

Less than 5 minutes if set up properly. OK, it took less than that for my partner, dropped into Linux Mint from Windows 10 (Microsoft had deleted it and everything else - October 2018 MS disaster) to get the icons back to where she usually had them all over the desktop on the backed up disk with Linux Mint.

On 10/19/2022 at 5:25 PM, Chiyawa said:

So that's my experience. Linux actually is very powerful, but it may be too powerful for average Joe to utilised completely.

Utilise completely maybe but who uses Windows and utilises that completely?

On 10/19/2022 at 5:25 PM, Chiyawa said:

As for "Linux is only free if you don't value your time" goes, yeah, that's quite true.

 

Except you have paid Microsoft for Windows so?

 

A lot of the previous was about gaming. For those who actually want to do work or something serious, Linux will do it easily, especially if using Mint. The latest "out the door" from here and one very happy husband because his wife is happy with her Linux Mint set up.

[maplepants]

On 10/19/2022 at 4:42 AM, wseaton said:

Any company that claims they run Linux to reduce licensing costs is on the virge of chapter 11 or is about to bounce payroll checks.

This would definitely be a huge red flag. I was a consultant for many years and never encountered a company who claimed this, but I did sometimes run into junior devs who thought it might matter. But that's part of being junior, you've got more to learn.

 

In many companies where I've worked IBM / Redhat or Canonical's support packages typically cost more than Windows Server licenses. This is because Microsoft is very willing to work with big clients to give you deals, and ordering a massive volume of Office 365 suites, Windows desktop licenses, OneDrive storage, and Azure services will give you some space to get a deal on Windows Server licenses.

[Chiyawa]

2 hours ago, RollyShed said:

Less than 5 minutes if set up properly.

Setting up and get it to run is okay, but problem is using it. The interface needs to get used to it, much like Ubuntu. Not sure about you, but I can't seems to 'create shortcut' for my apps.

 

2 hours ago, RollyShed said:

Utilise completely maybe but who uses Windows and utilises that completely?

That's true. I may have overlook about it, but yeah.

 

2 hours ago, RollyShed said:

Except you have paid Microsoft for Windows so?

Over here, the saying goes 'Linux is only free if you don't value your time' simply means that many distro is free but if problem occurs (or you need to do something but unfamiliar on how to do it in Linux) you have to troubleshoot yourself, which can take hours just to dig up some few codes, implement it and hope for the best. I spend more time just to get everything running smoothly than using it, which well, I do agree on this statement. I did lots of Linux distro experiment back at my college day since I have lots of spare time back then, but I find it more difficult than ever now since I'm working. I'm not sure what you are trying to say over here, but yeah, Windows is not free, much like Red Hat.

[RollyShed]

1 hour ago, Chiyawa said:

Setting up and get it to run is okay, but problem is using it. The interface needs to get used to it, much like Ubuntu. Not sure about you, but I can't seems to 'create shortcut' for my apps.

You mean a shortcut as in "put it on the Panel/Task bar?" Couldn't be easier. Right click on the app and there is the option, Panel or desktop.

1 hour ago, Chiyawa said:

Over here, the saying goes 'Linux is only free if you don't value your time' simply means that many distro is free but if problem occurs (or you need to do something but unfamiliar on how to do it in Linux) you have to troubleshoot yourself, which can take hours just to dig up some few codes, implement it and hope for the best.

So Windows wipes the screen displays again, wipes the printer drivers again, wipes everything again. How much looking up and chasing things does that take to fix? In the mean time Linux has simply kept going.

 

If you want to do something odd in Windows where do you find it? Certainly in Linux Mint the discussion forum will most likely have the answer or someone will know how to fix things.

[Chiyawa]

1 hour ago, RollyShed said:

So Windows wipes the screen displays again, wipes the printer drivers again, wipes everything again. How much looking up and chasing things does that take to fix? In the mean time Linux has simply kept going.

Strange, I don't have much driver issues. Yes, Windows have a tendency to update your graphic driver without telling you, but other than that, I don't seems to have issue with printer driver at all. Download it from the manufacturer website, install, and works until the printer is dead. This is the first time I heard someone having issue with printer drivers.

 

Yeah, Mint has a good forum, Ubuntu is a little chaotic but has lots of information, Windows forum is somewhere from utterly useless to partially fix.

 

1 hour ago, RollyShed said:

Right click on the app and there is the option, Panel or desktop.

Hmm... must have miss that. Okay, I'll keep them in mind.

[RollyShed]

1 hour ago, Chiyawa said:

So Windows wipes the screen displays again, wipes the printer drivers again, wipes everything again.

 

Strange, I don't have much driver issues. Yes, Windows have a tendency to update your graphic driver without telling you, but other than that, I don't seems to have issue with printer driver at all. Download it from the manufacturer website, install, and works until the printer is dead. This is the first time I heard someone having issue with printer drivers.

For the year of 2018, it kept happening month after month. If a commercial outfit, MS, (they had sacked their testers) can be so careless with their testing and be making so much money, it is ridiculous.

 

Yes, go back to the printer's website and download/install the driver again and again. After the deleting of everything in October it was obvious MS could not be trusted.

 

Your comments on the forums also seems to sum it up

 

A few links about how MS fail -

 

Deletes everything -

http://www.forbes.com/sites/amitchowdhry/2016/03/07/microsoft-monday-windows-10-update-deletes-apps-xbox-one-longevity-plan-minecraft-for-oculus-rift/#5c6f5e3f5388

 

They’ve done it again – May 2020

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kevinmurnane/2018/11/27/the-windows-10-october-update-is-still-breaking-things-you-can-deal-with-it-or-opt-for-a-chromebook/#7e14e22f2193
The problem, once again, is KB4556799, a recent Windows 10 update pushed to millions of PCs which has already caused numerous issues, including –
Blue Screen of Death (BSOD) crashes,
Deleted user data,
Performance issues,
Broken audio and more.

Dual Monitors not working

This problem has been around for over 2 years and Microsoft doesn’t seem to know how to fix it. It used to work and then failed, in a recent case, the middle of November 2017.

 

Warning – browser security compromised by Microsoft
https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2020/04/23/google-chrome-critical-security-exploit-windows-10-upgrade-warning-update-chrome-browser/#1c40c9fd5f8f

[Thomas4]

Yes installing an application on Linux is extremely difficult

 

sudo snap install <name of program>

After all this, I need to take a nap to recover.

[Internet_Goblin]

Because it is true.

 

Part of your opinion is being colored by the fact that you run with and interact in tech heavier social circles while consuming tech content. The usage of *nix systems and their benefits will come up more often as will the desire to fix and research problems involving Windows and Mac. Because of this you aren't seeing that 90%+ of people could not give a single solitary frick about CLI or FOSS and simply want their Facebook machine to start up and work when they push the shiny buttons.

 

I need you to imagine a world where consumer level Windows and Apple disappear tonight and everyone is handed a USB with their choice of distro on it tomorrow and told to install it. Because this is a magical scenario, all their files will be backed up to an external drive that they'll be handed as well, but they only get them back after a successful install. Better hope they didn't choose Arch because they have no way to get online and find an install guide. People who are already tech enthusiasts and *nix users are probably fine, albeit slightly annoyed or even potentially overjoyed. The average consumer though? "Learn to code" will be replaced with "become tech support" for the quick and easy money because having to actually solve their own problems or do a single solitary ounce of research in to their issue isn't something most people do. That or we slide back 30 years on the home computing front because nobody who isn't an enthusiast or professional wants anything to do with a *nix system. Also gamers would be big mad.

 

You think I didn't try to convert my boomer parents to Zorin Lite so they could keep using their "New with Windows 7" PC when the transition to Windows 11 was confusing and angering for them? I kept getting phone calls about something or other not working or them being unable to "figure this computer stuff out." All their issues were simple and easy to me, but because they had no interest in actually learning the system they relied on me to do everything. So instead I bought them an M1 Mac Mini and a docking station (so they could keep using the monitor, mouse, keyboard and printer they liked) and after a few days of figuring out what the new icons did and getting the things they wanted on their dock they are zooming around Facebook and making mildly racist commentary regarding my wife and their grandchildren without issue.

 

 

 

 

[Zipdox]

Quote

Where did this "Linux is only free if you don't value your time" propaganda came from?

From a crypto scammer YouTuber called TechLead.

[corrado33]

On 10/22/2022 at 11:24 PM, Thomas4 said:

Yes installing an application on Linux is extremely difficult

 

sudo snap install <name of program>

After all this, I need to take a nap to recover.

Assuming you're in the sudoers list. If not, good fucking luck. 

 

Assuming you have all the dependencies. If not, good fucking luck.

 

Assuming updating the dependencies won't break other dependencies or other parts of the OS, if not, good fucking luck. 

 

All things that can be overcome relatively easily if you know what you're doing. What you fail to understand, however, is that most people are fucking idiots. 

[corrado33]

Back when I was younger, I ran a linux fileserver/media server. It was debian, and it worked, until it didn't. 

 

Being fairly unfamiliar with how to run a SAMBA server from within linux, it took me hours to set it up. (I could have done the same in Windows or Mac OS in minutes, even without experience in doing it before.) Then I let the server run.... for years. I didn't really touch it. I came back to it about every year to update things. Then, after the 2nd year, I came back and tried to update stuff, and it just didn't work. I tried to run the GUI updater, nothing. I tried to force apt-get updates. Nothing. Nothing would work. I had no idea how to diagnose the problem. I couldn't update anything. I tried posting online, I tried searching for solutions, and I never found any that worked. So I said "screw it" and just let it run for another year until I literally couldn't do something I needed to do without updating. I got extremely tired of spending hours trying to diagnose and fix problems that would pop up. I just didn't have the time for it anymore. Then I switched over to a windows machine and simply sharing folders. Honestly? For my *single user* usage, it worked better than a linux server. It's worth noting that linux has done this to me TWICE. Twice it has left me with a system that is just... "stuck" and can't be taken any further. Maybe it was my fault. Maybe I should have been updating weekly, but honestly, I didn't care that much. Now sure, I do like to reinstall windows on my windows machines, and I may do it every few years, but I don't do it because I HAVE to, I do it because I want to. More often than not I do it when I upgrade hardware. It's not like the OS has given up on me and refuses to update. It's a nice way to clean all the gunk out that I've installed or downloaded over the years. MacOS, on the other hand, is the best OS (IMO) for never having to reinstall. Due to its "self contained" nature of applications and what not, uninstalling stuff gets rid of it completely, so remnants aren't left around. Basically if you get rid of all the excess apps in the application folder, and all your documents and downloads, you essentially have a "newish" computer. 

 

Mac and windows will always.... work. And you'll never have to go into the console to make it work. 

 

Linux is not like that. Can it work? Absolutely. There are plenty of people who use linux on a daily basis. Will it work for the masses? Nope. Not in any way, shape, or form. Not until it becomes more like Apple and makes itself idiot proof. If a distro of linux wants to fight for user share, someone needs to go through and add a crap ton of idiot proofing, error correction, and self repair to the OS. And you know what's going to be sacrificed to make that happen? Flexibility. Just like with MacOS. It's just that the people developing the linux distros aren't willing to give up the flexibility (because that's core LINUX, that's what it's about.)

 

I think linux users are just pissed that apple did what linux is trying to do, and they did it years and years ago, and it works really freaking well. If you REALLY need a *nix operating system, use macos. Seriously. You won't get better than that. It's an extremely polished OS (at the sacrifice of SOME functionality over pure linux or unix OSs.) Personally I think MacOS is the best OS for the masses right now. The ONLY reason I use windows is because I like to game, and I don't feel like dual booting. And MacOS is arguably better for content creation anyway. 

[Thomas4]

3 hours ago, corrado33 said:

Assuming you're in the sudoers list. If not, good fucking luck. 

 

Assuming you have all the dependencies. If not, good fucking luck.

 

Assuming updating the dependencies won't break other dependencies or other parts of the OS, if not, good fucking luck. 

 

All things that can be overcome relatively easily if you know what you're doing. What you fail to understand, however, is that most people are fucking idiots.

A user, that has installed her/his own is in the sudoers list by default.

The sudoers list has 2 major purposes.

1. When in multiuser computers, it prevents a second user from tampering with the files of the first user.

2. It prohibits any user from tampering with core files needed by the OS itself.

A user can be denied this access in a couple of different ways. The easiest is to give the root user a different password from the Users and not giving it out or by changing a flag in the sudoers list.

The major purpose of the sudoers list is to require an extra step to give the user a chance to ask themselves, "What am I doing? and "Do I really want to do this?"

 

Depending on the distribution, there are varying commands that when installing an application itself will also download and install needed dependencies at the same time. The exact flags needed depend on the distribution itself. There's even a flag that won't reinstall dependencies either not needed or are already in the system.

 

The beauty of Linux is that you can't break other dependencies the system won't allow it.

 

Yes, it can be done but only the really smart people can do it, neither the idiot nor the average person has the ability, albeit minor but still..., to do so easily.

Unlike a major OS where everyone is an administrator, with full access to EVERYTHING, unless corporate policy explicitly prohibits it.

[corrado33]

1 minute ago, Thomas4 said:

The beauty of Linux is that you can't break other dependencies the system won't allow it.

Did you....watch the videos where linus tried Linux for a month? This is.... literally exactly what happened. 

[Thomas4]

What Linus didn't do was to read the instructions given. What we used to call a PICNIC (Problem In Chair And Not In Computer) error.

[Thomas4]

We call them "snapshots" and was in Linux years before "shadow copy" was in Windows.

 

Of course anything unpatched leaks that's why patches are made - to prevent leaks.

 

A few of the little known companies reliant on Linux - IBM, Google, Oracle, Facebook, and Amazon.

[Thomas4]

What make Linux "so hard" is that unlike Microsoft there is no large company backing it that can afford the millions of dollars that it spends on giving schools computers with their OS built-in.

 

[wasab]

On 11/20/2022 at 12:49 PM, Zipdox said:

From a crypto scammer YouTuber called TechLead.

that guy is a narccist piece of trash but most people gave him a free pass cuz he does it with a sense of humor. 

[whm1974]

The "Linux is only free if you..." been around since the mid 90's. Back when I was using OS/2 I was reading that. And that about UNIX Systems instead of Linux on the Desktop. Windows NT was still being worked on.

 

But now Linux on the Desktop is a thing now. Not for everyone. But it works.

 

 

 

[RollyShed]

On 11/21/2022 at 12:52 PM, Thomas4 said:

What make Linux "so hard" is that unlike Microsoft there is no large company backing it that can afford the millions of dollars that it spends on giving schools computers with their OS built-in.

A company with so much money that it sacks its test people and then issues untested updates which wipe users computers. About a million wiped in October 2018. And then more the following years.

Meanwhile Linux with no paid testers gets everything thoroughly tested for free before issuing as an update.

 

Take your pick, reliable Linux or unreliable Windows?

[GoodBytes]

12 minutes ago, RollyShed said:

A company with so much money that it sacks its test people and then issues untested updates which wipe users computers. About a million wiped in October 2018. And then more the following years.

 

Incorrect information, Microsoft doesn't have that many employees. Secondly, many of them were relocated to different jobs at the company. Some of them, refused the job offered, even though many of these jobs were promotions. 

 

Microsoft didn't sake it's testerd, it ended the job title: Software Developer in Test. A role that was fairly unique to Microsoft at the time. This was not industry standard practice. Microsoft was stuck in the 90's with it's past model.

 

Software Dev in Test, makes programs to test functionality of functions. This meant, for ever function (code wise) the developer could not really progress on anything and must focus it's attention in telling someone else how his/hers code works so that that person can build tests.

 

Industry standard works by having devs make unit, component tests, and some time end to end tests, and the QA team tests and make its own tests which gets added to a series of countless tests, forming what is called automated testing. A series of test, thousands of them, which execute before validation of a build or feature toggle configuration set (set of features that is enabled for people to use).

 

Microsoft quality was never higher than now. Issues were less visible as the Internet wasn't what it is today. 

 

12 minutes ago, RollyShed said:

Meanwhile Linux with no paid testers gets everything thoroughly tested for free before issuing as an update.

Did you know Microsoft devs are the biggest contributors to Linux? And no, Linux is filled with bugs, it is just less used, and so less are found, or cated about by its users.

 

12 minutes ago, RollyShed said:

Take your pick, reliable Linux or unreliable Windows?

Grass isn't greener on the other side. Sorry. Linux based OS hasn't taken off before, and won't now in the PC space. The advantages of Linux doesn't affect PC users. 

[RollyShed]

4 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

 

Incorrect information, Microsoft doesn't have that many employees. Secondly, many of them were relocated to different jobs at the company. Some of them, refused the job offered, even though many of these jobs were promotions. 

 

Microsoft didn't sake it's testerd,

Yes, a test herd of lambs to the slaughter.

 

When you happen to be involved in one of their debaclies, month after month, one quickly looses faith in their ability.

 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140806183208-12100070-why-did-microsoft-lay-off-programmatic-testers

Staff laid off.

 

https://www.ghacks.net/2019/09/23/former-microsoft-employee-explains-why-bugs-in-windows-updates-increased/

Back in 2014/2015, Microsoft employed an entire team that was dedicated to testing the operating system, builds, updates, drivers, and other code. The team consisted of multiple groups that would run tests and discuss bugs and issues in daily meetings. Tests were conducted manually by the team and through automated testing, and if tests were passed, would give the okay to integrate the code into Windows.

 

https://www.quora.com/How-does-Microsoft-handle-the-software-testing-when-they-have-laid-off-a-large-part-of-the-testing-team-How-do-companies-like-Google-and-Apple-handle-the-testing
How does Microsoft handle the software testing when they have laid off a large part of the testing team?

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/amitchowdhry/2016/03/07/microsoft-monday-windows-10-update-deletes-apps-xbox-one-longevity-plan-minecraft-for-oculus-rift/#5c6f5e3f5388
See here for the story about it and how to fix it. Forbes Tech – Microsoft Monday: Windows 10 Update Deletes Apps.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kevinmurnane/2018/11/27/the-windows-10-october-update-is-still-breaking-things-you-can-deal-with-it-or-opt-for-a-chromebook/#7e14e22f2193
Windows 10 October Still Breaking Things (posted 27 Nov 2018)

They’ve done it again – May 2020

The problem, once again, is KB4556799, a recent Windows 10 update pushed to millions of PCs which has already caused numerous issues, including –
Blue Screen of Death (BSOD) crashes, Deleted user data, Performance issues, Broken audio and more.
Microsoft is investigating these problems, but the company has now also confirmed on the official KB4556799 update page that it can break Internet connections as well.

[dcgreen2k]

I've said it many times and I'll say it again. The reason I stopped using Windows was because I was sick and tired of it being a buggy mess. I switched to Linux 4 months ago and I have not seen any bugs, nor has it crashed a single time. Adding on to that, I work in my university's computer engineering department and every one of the computers I've worked with run some form of Linux - our department servers run CentOS and the desktops provided to students run Ubuntu. It makes working with them much easier because we don't have to fight the operating system to get things done.

[Sauron]

It's an old quote from I don't know who that gets thrown around by people who don't understand windows or linux and want to sound smug about it.

 

First of all, any serious deployment of Linux, big enough to have the license cost matter, is not free. If you have anything important depending on that system you'll at least want to pay for one of the available commercial support licenses, from Canonical or Red Hat or SUSE or what have you. Second, the issues you might encounter on Linux mostly revolve about just not being able to run a specific program you need - in which case it's not about time at all, you're just using the wrong tool for the job.

On 10/17/2022 at 2:49 PM, solado said:

I can only talk about my own experiences with Linux as I decided to try switch earlier this year as a daily driver... It was a nightmare.

 

World of warcraft [...]

I am a video editor and use the adobe packages [...]

Like... you see what I mean? You have a system that's clearly intended to play games quite often and the games you play are not Linux native. You run Adobe software which is not Linux native. Why would you expect Linux to be the correct choice for this? If everything you do needs a compatibility layer or emulation just use the thing you're emulating.

On 10/8/2022 at 9:12 PM, manikyath said:

gaming? expect to be troubleshooting before the game actually works.

I mean... no wonder, you're trying to run incompatible software written for something else. Does anyone complain about Windows being unable to run ps5 games? The fact that it works at all is a bit of a miracle. Yeah, don't use Linux just to save money if you only want to play games. Duh. Who ever said otherwise anyway?

On 10/8/2022 at 9:12 PM, manikyath said:

photo editing? enjoy your subpar alternatives.

Subpar alternatives I would use anyway because I'm not about to pay the price of freaking photoshop for the one edit a year I need to do. If you're willing to buy a photoshop license (or worse, a subscription) then any cost consideration is already out the window. Office is not free either and a lot of people are just fine using google docs; I never really need Office for personal use and the most writing I ever did was in university where I'd just use latex or markdown because wysiwyg editors suck balls for writing technical documents and papers.

On 10/8/2022 at 9:14 PM, bmx6454 said:

people push politics into everything.

It's odd you'd say that right after making a radical political statement:

On 10/8/2022 at 9:14 PM, bmx6454 said:

everyone should be allowed to voice their opinions freely, you can either try to counter it, or ignore it, but censoring is never the answer

I'm pretty sure I could pull up some examples where you'd agree that "opinion" should not be platformed, though of course snarky comments about Linux are not one. Also probably not the right place to pull those examples, but you get the idea.

On 10/8/2022 at 9:53 PM, Caroline said:

with Linux is how overcomplicated even the simplest tasks are, you can't simply download a file, double-click on it and install it, you have to run at least 5 terminal commands.

Microsoft really did brainwash people into thinking looking up for an installer online, clicking through 5 links to get to the actual download while being bombarded with malicious ads, downloading a random executable you can't verify and running it as administrator, choosing where to place the files on the system and opting out of adware manually is somehow simpler than running a single command line command... or you know, just clicking on "install" in the graphical app store almost all major distributions come with.

 

Yes, of course using Linux just to save money is a bad idea because it implies what you actually want is Windows and just don't want to pay for it. Linux being free for personal use is still a great thing and it contributes to why you might want to use it for stuff like home servers or media centers where paying for a dedicated Windows or Windows server license every time would blow up your budget while being completely unnecessary. And it can be used for desktops depending on what you use your desktop for; for example if you're a web developer you can just use Linux for everything and never have a problem getting apps you need to work.

[solado]

29 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Like... you see what I mean? You have a system that's clearly intended to play games quite often and the games you play are not Linux native. You run Adobe software which is not Linux native. Why would you expect Linux to be the correct choice for this? If everything you do needs a compatibility layer or emulation just use the thing you're emulating.

Simeone's a bit cranky this morning, Getting this upset about something so minor isn't good for your health. Far more important thing's in this life to get wound up about.

[manikyath]

51 minutes ago, Sauron said:

I mean... no wonder, you're trying to run incompatible software written for something else. Does anyone complain about Windows being unable to run ps5 games? The fact that it works at all is a bit of a miracle. Yeah, don't use Linux just to save money if you only want to play games. Duh. Who ever said otherwise anyway?

it just so happens that not very many games are made for linux, and that a majority stake of the people on this forum would at least have that as a consideration.

51 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Subpar alternatives I would use anyway because I'm not about to pay the price of freaking photoshop for the one edit a year I need to do. If you're willing to buy a photoshop license (or worse, a subscription) then any cost consideration is already out the window.

exactly my point. keep in mind.. this is exactly the topic: where does "linux is only free if you dont value your time" come from: because if you are fine with a free alternative that takes a bit more time.. it's free. but if that time directly corelates to a monetary value.. linux (and the alternatives) is a very costly path to travel on.

 

we're not talking about some sort of superiority or what is the most 'enlightened' way of running your computer...

it's simply the fact that if you use linux, there is an expectation of basic knowledge and time investment that is not necessary with windows.

 

case in point... i have a $80 unraid license because i couldnt be arsed to figure out how to do PCIe passtrough on <insert free platform here> and on unraid it's just pushing buttons. so in a sense.. it's not even a windows/linux debate.. it's about wether you believe opporunity cost is a valuable metric or not.

 

I'm a big proponent of linux in the right place, but ignoring the opportunity cost that may come with that is a good way to worsen the public image of "being difficult" because you're shoehorning it in places where it doesnt belong.

 

It's like trying to drive to work if you live in the middle of a busy city, and work in the middle of said city.. chances are you'd be faster on foot. you could conclude cars are a horrible waste of time and resources, or you could conclude that that isnt the environment for a car to be in.