Discussion on the LTT Backpack Warranty ...

[Pitboy64]

LTT dropped this post regarding details and language regarding the new Backpack Warranty on Facebook on August 18.
It is posted as 'finalised'.
Some healthy discussion has circulated there, but I thought this should be on the forum for the greater community to discuss.
Its in the LTT Store section of the forum as it makes sense, but if admin or mods choose to move it elsewhere, so be it.
How do you feel about it?
Does it cover your concerns?
Should it be 'finalised' or do you feel there are glaring issues?

Discuss

 

 

[Pitboy64]

My personal thoughts.

I suppose most of it is cut/paste from what we see elsewhere.

One thing stuck out for me: The COSMETIC DAMAGE part.

 

I know Linus will likely replace a backpack if it arrives with an obvious manufacture defect that is of a cosmetic nature ... because he said he would stand up to his product ... but this particular exception actually means that if the (lets say) colour shade of the materials of the pieces that make up the outside of the bag is horribly beyond reasonable acceptable limits ... different from each other, appear unbalanced or just wrong (like an 'end of roll' issue),
...  its not covered because its just 'cosmetic'.

OR if a major zipper or edge trim piece is all twisted and sewn way out of spec and tolerance,
... its not covered, because its just 'cosmetic'.

OR if the LTT sewn on label on the front is upside down or backwards,
... its not covered, because its just 'cosmetic'.

There is nothing in the policy that separates a cosmetic issue as a manufacturer defect ... to a cosmetic defect that occurs over time of ownership (sun fade etc) which is what I assume this was supposed to be about.  This discrepancy is problematic.

 

To a warranty policy, 'Materials defects' can be viewed as 'cosmetic'

This is the problem with going full hog policy ... the relaxed state of 'Obviously Im going to replace the bag if that happens', turns formal when its in writing, and we start balancing words and meanings.  To that end, Its a shame Linus had to go here.

[DeltaBruggemann]

28 minutes ago, Pitboy64 said:

My personal thoughts.

I suppose most of it is cut/paste from what we see elsewhere.

One thing stuck out for me: The COSMETIC DAMAGE part.

 

I know Linus will likely replace a backpack if it arrives with an obvious manufacture defect that is of a cosmetic nature ... because he said he would stand up to his product ... but this particular exception actually means that if the (lets say) colour shade of the materials of the pieces that make up the outside of the bag is horribly beyond reasonable acceptable limits ... different from each other, appear unbalanced or just wrong (like an 'end of roll' issue),
...  its not covered because its just 'cosmetic'.

OR if a major zipper or edge trim piece is all twisted and sewn way out of spec and tolerance,
... its not covered, because its just 'cosmetic'.

OR if the LTT sewn on label on the front is upside down or backwards,
... its not covered, because its just 'cosmetic'.

There is nothing in the policy that separates a cosmetic issue as a manufacturer defect ... to a cosmetic defect that occurs over time of ownership (sun fade etc) which is what I assume this was supposed to be about.  This discrepancy is problematic.

 

To a warranty policy, 'Materials defects' can be viewed as 'cosmetic'

This is the problem with going full hog policy ... the relaxed state of 'Obviously Im going to replace the bag if that happens', turns formal when its in writing, and we start balancing words and meanings.  To that end, Its a shame Linus had to go here.

A good example of cosmetic defects would be the water bottle they sell. There have been people on twitter who have dented the water bottle and staff have replied saying if the seal isn’t broken then it just adds character. There has also been examples of the print fading within a few months and they have taken to resolve the issue.  So I’d say it depends.
 

The warranty has been put in place by LMG due to the large number of complaints that it doesn’t have one. This official warranty only covers the absolute bare minimum.

What hasn’t (hopefully) changed is their internal policies in regards to helping customers who have issues with their products.

[jaypro]

1 hour ago, Pitboy64 said:

One thing stuck out for me: The COSMETIC DAMAGE part.

 

I know Linus will likely replace a backpack if it arrives with an obvious manufacture defect that is of a cosmetic nature ... because he said he would stand up to his product ... but this particular exception actually means that if the (lets say) colour shade of the materials of the pieces that make up the outside of the bag is horribly beyond reasonable acceptable limits ... different from each other, appear unbalanced or just wrong (like an 'end of roll' issue),
...  its not covered because its just 'cosmetic'.

 

Cosmetic defect is not the same as cosmetic damage.

 

Cosmetic defect would be like, mismatching fabric colors.  Cosmetic damage would be like, later on, if some bleach accidentally got on the fabric.  I would think most cases would be obvious whether it was damaged or defective.

 

[LinusTech]

Our internal policies haven't changed at all.

 

As long as you're not trying to scam us we stand behind the product 100% and want to make sure you're happy. 

 

Hopefully having this very boring document created and rubber-stamped by our overpriced law firm will allow us to put all of this behind us and keep doing things exactly the way we were already doing them. 

 

I probably over-thought this whole thing. 

[Roswell]

6 hours ago, LinusTech said:

Hopefully having this very boring document created and rubber-stamped by our overpriced law firm will allow us to put all of this behind us and keep doing things exactly the way we were already doing them. 

A lot of people are taking just as much issue with your attitude as they are your reluctance to provide basic consumer protection.

 

Maybe instead of qualifying your warranty policy with your loathing of said basic consumer protections, you just skip the loathing part. You’re saying the “I hate losing pennies on the dollar in the interest of my customers” part out loud, which also sucks for business.

 

Most educated people get it, understand it. You’re a business and your customers exist solely to fill your pockets. But you need to balance that sentiment with a basic level of respect for your source of revenue.

[Njitram]

While one can argue that putting 'cosmetic' damages might be too vague, it is a bit crude to expect LTT to list all possible defects and mark if they are cosmetic or not.

 

I'd assume most people here can reasonably determine that a poorly sown zipper will lead to mechanical failure and will be replaced, same as if it came out looking hotpink out of the box (although i wouldn't mind). It is clearly meant to cover small cosmetic blemishes that will appear due to wear and tear and insinuating that LTT will try and shove every possible defect onto cosmetic and not care is disingenuous.

 

I have purchased the backpack and am glad there is a written warranty out there, but i never doubted LTT in their support for the product. Trying to find (non-existent) holes in some legalese is meaningless if the actions of LTT are perfectly fine. They replace bad bottles, but a dent in one due to wear is to me not excessive. They never touted it as the strongest water bottle so i wouldnt expect a jumping party to be survived by one.

 

Until someone comes out with an example of LTT being intentionally shitty with their warranty i have no doubt they will behave ethically.

[LinusTech]

8 hours ago, Roswell said:

A lot of people are taking just as much issue with your attitude as they are your reluctance to provide basic consumer protection.

 

Maybe instead of qualifying your warranty policy with your loathing of said basic consumer protections, you just skip the loathing part. You’re saying the “I hate losing pennies on the dollar in the interest of my customers” part out loud, which also sucks for business.

 

Most educated people get it, understand it. You’re a business and your customers exist solely to fill your pockets. But you need to balance that sentiment with a basic level of respect for your source of revenue.

Yeah none of this has anything to do with loathing customers or pennies on the dollar or whatever you're talking about. I would hope that would be fairly obvious. If I wanted to be an exploitative bastard, I'd be doing it already. If I actually loathed our customers and saw them as walking wallets our customer care team would say "buy a new one sucker". But they don't. 

 

And my whole point was that a warranty like we just released wouldn't change that.

 

The wording is in line with most major bag makers, and on its own, it offers basically no protection whatsoever. We still have the flexibility to deny a claim any time we want for any reason we want, so (again like I said) it's only as useful as our will to honor the spirit of the agreement. 

 

We have a very strong will because we care for a variety reasons ranging from altruistic to calculating, but like I said from the start, the document changes nothing, so you're just going to have to trust me, bro. 

 

Don't worry tho. I got u. 

[Mojo-Jojo]

I don't understand how there are still people complaining about this.

 

Read the first sentence of the warranty. That's all you need.

It'll be free of defects out of the gate or you can put in a warranty claim and they'll take care of it. Simple as that.

 

The rest is just a lenghty (and fair) "don't be an asshole" disclaimer.

[Beerzerker]

9 hours ago, Roswell said:

A lot of people are taking just as much issue with your attitude as they are your reluctance to provide basic consumer protection.
 

"Attitude" goes right to PR/marketing and yes, it can affect sales but at the same time that has nothing to do with a warranty except in the execution of it.
It's not like LTT themselves are manufacturing the bags, in this case it's they say they'll reasonably stand behind what they sell and if they do it's all good.
 

9 hours ago, Roswell said:

 

Maybe instead of qualifying your warranty policy with your loathing of said basic consumer protections, you just skip the loathing part. You’re saying the “I hate losing pennies on the dollar in the interest of my customers” part out loud, which also sucks for business.

 

Most educated people get it, understand it. You’re a business and your customers exist solely to fill your pockets. But you need to balance that sentiment with a basic level of respect for your source of revenue.

Any part of PR can be improved by anyone (Less gripe - More hype in this case as you've stated), whether they actually do it or not is a choice for them and them alone to make along with any consequenses about it such as lost sales.

No need to worry - Right along with people in general, I know Linus himself knows it too and do remember he's more than just "The Guy" that sells stuff on his site, he's a customer of other things just like the rest of us with the same experiences we've all had, so it's not like he hasn't been there before himself.

[Roswell]

38 minutes ago, LinusTech said:

I would hope that would be fairly obvious.

Anything but obvious, you've been kicking and screaming the whole way through. You've made it quite clear that you're very annoyed that you need to offer a warranty on your $250 product.

 

38 minutes ago, LinusTech said:

If I actually loathed our customers and saw them as walking wallets our customer care team would say "buy a new one sucker". But they don't. 

False equivalency. If your customer care team acted that way, it would be very bad for business, regardless of how you feel about your customers. On that note, yes, they're walking wallets. You're a business and you have no semblance of a personal relationship with them. They literally can't be anything but a walking wallet to you because that's the only meaningful interaction they have with you.

 

38 minutes ago, LinusTech said:

it offers basically no protection whatsoever.

Wrong. It opens you up to legal proceedings and small claims if you start getting scummy. You've been continually whining about it from the jump, so anyone with half a brain cell would deduce that you're annoyed that now at a minimum, you're open to legal action if you begin behaving poorly.

 

38 minutes ago, LinusTech said:

We have a very strong will because we care for a variety reasons ranging from altruistic to calculating

To quote your own words, "businesses aren't your friend". Drop the altruistic angle, that sounds super cringe coming from an advertising and merch company. 

[LinusTech]

42 minutes ago, Roswell said:

Anything but obvious, you've been kicking and screaming the whole way through. You've made it quite clear that you're very annoyed that you need to offer a warranty on your $250 product.

 

False equivalency. If your customer care team acted that way, it would be very bad for business, regardless of how you feel about your customers. On that note, yes, they're walking wallets. You're a business and you have no semblance of a personal relationship with them. They literally can't be anything but a walking wallet to you because that's the only meaningful interaction they have with you.

 

Wrong. It opens you up to legal proceedings and small claims if you start getting scummy. You've been continually whining about it from the jump, so anyone with half a brain cell would deduce that you're annoyed that now at a minimum, you're open to legal action if you begin behaving poorly.

 

To quote your own words, "businesses aren't your friend". Drop the altruistic angle, that sounds super cringe coming from an advertising and merch company. 

It's frustrating because you go from not getting it, to getting it, to not getting it all within these 4 paragraphs.

 

You say my intention to back up the product is not obvious.

 

Then you point out that obviously my customer care team would never behave in an anti-consumer manner because it would be bad for business. This is where you hit the nail on the head. This has been my point the whole time. Ignoring all other factors, we have to stand behind the product.

 

Then you demonstrate that you haven't understood the terms of the warranty. We (like any other company) can weasel our way out of it if we feel like it due to the wording. I'm assuming that's what you mean by "scummy", but didn't you just say it's not an option because it would be bad for business? Which one is it?

 

I don't really know why you're even bringing up small claims court. Most of our customers are international and wouldn't have a chance in hell of litigating something like that, and even for the local ones unless you have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING better to do, it would be an utter waste of time. Get out a needle and thread and put it back together at that point. It's a textile product, not a car. 

 

Then you quote me and call me cringe for telling you the honest truth. I will be the first to admit we are a business that makes calculated business decisions... I just said that. BUT I got into this gig in the first place because I DO care about people getting a good deal. I have a track record going back 20 years of helping people with their purchases in various communities. Yeah, I get paid for it now, but that wasn't always the case.

 

You should obviously question what people tell you, but the Linus character that seems to exist in your mind isn't real. I make mistakes, but I do what I can to rectify them.  I have nothing else to say about this now. You'll come around eventually. Or you wont.

 

[kumicota]

13 hours ago, LinusTech said:

As long as you're not trying to scam us we stand behind the product 100% and want to make sure you're happy. 

 

1 hour ago, LinusTech said:

It's frustrating because you go from not getting it, to getting it, to not getting it all within these 4 paragraphs.

I think you are the one not getting. You said many times in many videos that "Businesses aren't your friend", "LTT is a company and it's main purpose is profit" and more.

 

We're asking a warranty not because we don't trust you(while we may not agree in a lot of points) your support(which I don't say it's great because of the ticket backlog) has a track record of siding with the customer and to be good.

 

We're asking because you many times asked the same from other companies and asked a few times to not threat you as a friend because LTT is a company with many people depending on it.

 

The backpack and screwdriver is a item that is sold as a premium product, we're expect and trust you that it will be premium and that the after-sale support of it will be good but the warranty part is us holding you accountable for what you asked(threat LTT as a company and not your friend) and doing the same of what you would do with another company.

 

Also, profiting from the "Trust me bro" t-shirt looks childish.

 

 

[Roswell]

3 hours ago, LinusTech said:

It's frustrating because you go from not getting it, to getting it, to not getting it all within these 4 paragraphs.

 

You say my intention to back up the product is not obvious.

 

Then you point out that obviously my customer care team would never behave in an anti-consumer manner because it would be bad for business. This is where you hit the nail on the head. This has been my point the whole time. Ignoring all other factors, we have to stand behind the product.

 

Then you demonstrate that you haven't understood the terms of the warranty. We (like any other company) can weasel our way out of it if we feel like it due to the wording. I'm assuming that's what you mean by "scummy", but didn't you just say it's not an option because it would be bad for business? Which one is it?

 

I don't really know why you're even bringing up small claims court. Most of our customers are international and wouldn't have a chance in hell of litigating something like that, and even for the local ones unless you have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING better to do, it would be an utter waste of time. Get out a needle and thread and put it back together at that point. It's a textile product, not a car. 

 

Then you quote me and call me cringe for telling you the honest truth. I will be the first to admit we are a business that makes calculated business decisions... I just said that. BUT I got into this gig in the first place because I DO care about people getting a good deal. I have a track record going back 20 years of helping people with their purchases in various communities. Yeah, I get paid for it now, but that wasn't always the case.

 

You should obviously question what people tell you, but the Linus character that seems to exist in your mind isn't real. I make mistakes, but I do what I can to rectify them.  I have nothing else to say about this now. You'll come around eventually. Or you wont.

 

I really think all of this boils down to you not being able to compartmentalize people’s positive feelings towards you, the person and people’s desire to hold your business’s practices/promises accountable.

 

You need to reconcile the two. If you don’t and keep conflating the them, this will continue to happen.

 

As far as track records go, they mean something until they don’t. Look at Google in the early days. They were super pro-consumer, “do no evil” and all that, a real “trust us bro” attitude. Contrast that with their behavior now.

 

Trustworthiness is fluid. Past behavior doesn’t dictate future behavior.

[Vishera]

3 hours ago, Roswell said:

Trustworthiness is fluid. Past behavior doesn’t dictate future behavior.

Sure, but they are used to predict future behavior.

[Roswell]

2 hours ago, Vishera said:

Sure, but they are used to predict future behavior.

Which is the issue. People deserve more than a prediction when it comes to the availability of product support. They deserve a warranty, like virtually every other business provides.

[42525a]

I'm surprised nobody else is mentioning it, but why not match the Osprey warranty? They're a high end manufacturer in the space, with many options that are at a similar price point. I'm also curious if the LTT warranty would require paying for shipping both ways, as that could be a huge cost for those of us outside Canada.

 

Anyways, my thought is that if you want to join the premium pack market, be competitive with the established brands.

 

The design looks pretty good and I was close to buying one, but the lack of a warranty made me hesitant and now that it covers nothing wear and tear wise, it's a hard pass from me. As someone that takes multiple flights a week with some weeks taking me to four different states, not covering anything but defects just doesn't cut it.

 

-------------------------------

 

Osprey warranty:

 

WORN ZIPPER? RIPPED FABRIC? WE GOT YOU.

 

Osprey will repair any damage or defect for any reason free of charge — whether it was produced in 1974 or yesterday. If we are unable to perform a functional repair on your pack, we will happily replace it. We proudly stand behind this guarantee, so much so that it bears the signature of company founder and head designer, Mike Pfotenhauer.

 

-------------------------------

 

Oh and Linus:

The shirts would be hilarious if someone else was selling them. I was going to buy one when I had a moment where I thought GN was making them. Selling them directly feels like making fun of the rightfully concerned customers / potential customers.

[dogwitch]

1 hour ago, 42525a said:

I'm surprised nobody else is mentioning it, but why not match the Osprey warranty? They're a high end manufacturer in the space, with many options that are at a similar price point. I'm also curious if the LTT warranty would require paying for shipping both ways, as that could be a huge cost for those of us outside Canada.

 

Anyways, my thought is that if you want to join the premium pack market, be competitive with the established brands.

 

The design looks pretty good and I was close to buying one, but the lack of a warranty made me hesitant and now that it covers nothing wear and tear wise, it's a hard pass from me. As someone that takes multiple flights a week with some weeks taking me to four different states, not covering anything but defects just doesn't cut it.

 

-------------------------------

 

Osprey warranty:

 

WORN ZIPPER? RIPPED FABRIC? WE GOT YOU.

 

Osprey will repair any damage or defect for any reason free of charge — whether it was produced in 1974 or yesterday. If we are unable to perform a functional repair on your pack, we will happily replace it. We proudly stand behind this guarantee, so much so that it bears the signature of company founder and head designer, Mike Pfotenhauer.

 

-------------------------------

 

Oh and Linus:

The shirts would be hilarious if someone else was selling them. I was going to buy one when I had a moment where I thought GN was making them. Selling them directly feels like making fun of the rightfully concerned customers / potential customers.

random number user. name checks out. rants on a far bigger company and quote the poor man pugent system guy...  lol.

[crazzp]

3 hours ago, 42525a said:

I'm surprised nobody else is mentioning it, but why not match the Osprey warranty? They're a high end manufacturer in the space, with many options that are at a similar price point.

Is this horse going to die soon? Comparing LTT backpack warranty to Ospreys is like comparing a child running in the school's meet to Usain Bolt. Osprey is not only high end, their warranty is legendary, unmatched by any similar companies.

 

And on that topic, I'm not sure Ospreys operating model, I guess they are hoping not many will utilize the warranty, if not they might go bankrupt. There are customers getting a new backpack for free (less shipping) after getting it torn during a motor vehicle incident.

 

I dont think LTT can afford to match this kind of warranty and I dont expect them to.

[Z3R0 CHANC3]

Personally, I think the warranty is fine, and I'm sure if something happened that was borderline-if I asked them nicely I know they'd take care of it, as long as I haven't been intentionally misusing it. Say, loading it with 200lbs (91kg if you care) of bricks and complaining because a sharp brick corner cut into the fabric-that's just unreasonable.

 

My only issue with the warranty, and it doesn't matter in the slightest other than the way it's worded, "Damage caused by rips, cuts, or tears;". Rips, cuts, and tears aren't CAUSING damage, they ARE damage. And frankly, the preceding sentence should cover that, or be reworded to say "damage caused by misuse, abuse, or by accident or negligence, including rips, cuts, or tears". And US English anyway, wouldn't say "damages", just "damage", for what it's worth.

 

I missed the drama, and when I found out about the T-shirt I actually thought it was self deprecating. Whatever, it's not a big deal to me, but people taking things personally or feeling that a personal concern is being laughed at does require some thoughtfulness with a response.

[Random Old Guy]

Late to the party, but damn, the cringy stuff is neck deep in here.

First off, let me say that I think Linus personally (not even LMG) has good intentions.   That said, the warranty is (as he admits) mostly a formality and they have wide latitude under it to deny almost every claim possible.  Having that out of the way, let's deal with more important things.

For $250, you expect a premium product, literally "top of the line" "best in class" type product.  You would expect the warranty and customer service to go along with it at that price.  The markup on this product is SOLID.  There is plenty of meat left on the bone to treat clients properly.  There is also enough meat left on the bone to offer a more consumer friendly warranty, with terms that read at least somewhat favorable to the purchaser.  

As for consumer protections, it gets interesting.  While LMG is technically based in Vancouver, my understanding is that they are actually a Washington state company.  The implications on consumer affairs and such is complex.  Use that information as you feel.

[Kid.Lazer]

On 8/19/2022 at 3:40 AM, LinusTech said:

[...] very boring document created and rubber-stamped by our overpriced law firm

On 8/19/2022 at 2:40 PM, LinusTech said:

Yeah none of this has anything to do with [...] pennies on the dollar

The things you say are contradictory. You can't talk about unnecessary expense, and then say it has nothing to do with money. Either that, or you are REALLY bad at expressing what you actually mean.

[Ultraforce]

57 minutes ago, Random Old Guy said:

Late to the party, but damn, the cringy stuff is neck deep in here.

First off, let me say that I think Linus personally (not even LMG) has good intentions.   That said, the warranty is (as he admits) mostly a formality and they have wide latitude under it to deny almost every claim possible.  Having that out of the way, let's deal with more important things.

For $250, you expect a premium product, literally "top of the line" "best in class" type product.  You would expect the warranty and customer service to go along with it at that price.  The markup on this product is SOLID.  There is plenty of meat left on the bone to treat clients properly.  There is also enough meat left on the bone to offer a more consumer friendly warranty, with terms that read at least somewhat favorable to the purchaser.  

As for consumer protections, it gets interesting.  While LMG is technically based in Vancouver, my understanding is that they are actually a Washington state company.  The implications on consumer affairs and such is complex.  Use that information as you feel.

Linus Media Group and Creator Warehouse are both British Columbia corporations.

[Pitboy64]

Post OG doing a followup.

 

So here we are 10 sleeps later and where are we in this?

We have a warranty (like all warranty's) that is by design a tool to protect the company, not consumers, because viewer and potential customers demanded one so LMG acquiesced and protected itself with one ... but when Linus called people out for the ridiculousness of the situation and enjoyed a moment of comedy with a shirt, probably the same people that were butt hurt over not having a warranty ... were now butt hurt over the slight.  Is that pretty much it?

Personally, I just dont care.

When repeatedly told that it is the companies history of reacting to customer complaints that matter, not a warranty that again ,,, by design protects the company ... ... that wasnt enough hate dolled out, and it got out of hand.  People reacted like they were slapped and emotionally wounded ... over a company, a warranty and a tshirt.  There are real live issues in the world, wars being fought and people in very real risk of harm, but for some what is of real harm in this world ... is a tshirt.

On GN's part in all this ... sure treat LMG as a manufacturer going forward and opine on products, customer service and marketing that they want to comment on ... thats fine, I dont care. Comparing Linus to Noah Katz of Artesian Builds went too far.  Katz ripped off employees, customers, their own partners and broke pretty much every rule in the book regarding equitable company operations, including shady internal economic books.  Putting Linus in this mouthful is just not warranted.
It strikes me that even though he may be right regarding future comment on LMG products as a manufacturer, Steve dipping into the tshirt thing and dropping Noah Katz name ,,, is a bit too far.

From there, I wont disagree with Luke generally that the tshirt move may have been insensitive, but I will disagree that its Linus's job to smooth ruffled feathers and make every single woke complainer happy in their world.  Its a tshirt, get over it.  From my side, I have tough enough skin to let a move like that roll off of me without triggering anything. 
Again ... I just dont care.

Should after 10 sleeps of thinking about it, should Linus realise that the tshirt may not have been the best way to respond, then maybe he will have learned something; that its easier to acquiesce to the noise sometimes, and remain quiet, than inflame the fire and stir the pot ... as in the end ... it makes for an easier day for him.

[Needfuldoer]

On 8/26/2022 at 2:31 PM, Ultraforce said:

Linus Media Group and Creator Warehouse are both British Columbia corporations.

They contract a Canadian third party warehouse for order fulfillment, and that warehouse company dispatches US-bound orders from their location just over the border in Washington state.

 

That's probably where the wires got crossed.