Tim Cook rails against """bad privacy regulation & sideloading""" in keynote speech

[Avocado Diaboli]

1 minute ago, HRD said:

I just looked up for a survey (that is not internal) and it shows the same.

Would you mind linking it?

[HRD]

Just now, Avocado Diaboli said:

Would you mind linking it?

Sorry I forgot 

just edited it

[HRD]

3 hours ago, mr moose said:

The compromises are not worn by the users who do not side load.    The argument you keep making is that side loading will have a negative effect on those who purchased IOS because of ios preventing side loading.  If they do not side load then other people being able to does not effect them.  The risk (be it large small or indifferent) is solely on those who side load and never on those who don't.  That is why the argument that people buy apple for "security" is not a valid reason to prevent everyone from side loading. 

Not really what I meant by the example. I meant that having side-loading as an option made Fortnite not available on the play store. 

 

my choice as a user when I purchased an iPhone was in part because of the security, privacy, and convenience. For me having all the apps on one trusted store is worth it. You might disagree with me but that’s ok you can get an android phone and download a billion stores.

[mr moose]

6 minutes ago, HRD said:

Not really what I meant by the example. I meant that having side-loading as an option made Fortnite not available on the play store. 

This doesn't change anything.  If any company wants to have their app only available from their own website via side load then that is their prerogative and we as consumers still have a choice if we wish to trust them or not.  

 

6 minutes ago, HRD said:

my choice as a user when I purchased an iPhone was in part because of the security, privacy, and convenience. For me having all the apps on one trusted store is worth it. You might disagree with me but that’s ok you can get an android phone and download a billion stores.

 

If you are happy with that then that is great for you, but arguing that no one should be allowed to sell their apps elsewhere because you feel safe with the app store is not a valid argument against side loading.   In the unlikely event facebook want to avoid the app store and offer a side loaded option only and you don't want to use it then don't, facebook is not an essential service on your phone.  

 

Neither you nor apple get to force a company to make their products a specific way or sold only at a single store front. The premise of a free market is that if a company refuses to make a product you feel safe with then you don't buy it/use it.  If enough other people don't care and keep using it then that is a problem for them and said company, If that company breaks laws then it is an issue for the authorities, at no point is it deemed appropriate that a single private company be the gatekeeper, the fee charger, the police and the competition for a substantial portion of the market.

 

 

[HRD]

44 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Neither you nor apple get to force a company to make their products a specific way or sold only at a single store front. The premise of a free market is that if a company refuses to make a product you feel safe with then you don't buy it/use it.  If enough other people don't care and keep using it then that is a problem for them and said company, If that company breaks laws then it is an issue for the authorities, at no point is it deemed appropriate that a single private company be the gatekeeper, the fee charger, the police and the competition for a substantial portion of the market.

Apple gets to set what it wants to sell and what business model it wants. And we as users can vote with our money and decide whether or not we support it. 

Facebook can either not offer apps to us or follow the privacy rules and every rule of the store to join. 

 

More than a billion users are supporting apple’s model and they are giving apple the power to enforce the AppStore.

[leadeater]

23 minutes ago, HRD said:

More than a billion users are supporting apple’s model and they are giving apple the power to enforce the AppStore.

Just because people are using a product doesn't actually mean there is a completely healthy customer to company relationship going on. Companies can be offering good products and services that people are happy to use while also having terms and conditions of those that are not consumer friendly and may fall under the purview of regulators, that's the premise of this situation at heart, not whether people are happy using iPhones and iOS.

 

Also just to make it clear because we have been talking in a way as if sideloading isn't a thing on iOS and iPhones when it is already a thing, so any fears about something breaking or massive changes required by Apple or w/e else just don't apply. The issue is that sideloading is restricted in such a way that it's beyond prohibitive to generally use it in a free manor to install apps, all that is required is a change to how those restrictions are applied and the desires of those that want to be able to better utilize it will be addressed. And it could still be done in such a way that it would be unattractive to Facebook or Epic to try and push down that path so only those that really specifically want to utilize this capability will, not those that just want to play Fortnite or continue using their Facebook app.

[leadeater]

3 hours ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

A smartphone is for entertainment (realistically), a PC is for work.

 

1 hour ago, Blademaster91 said:

A smartphone can be for work as well, which is why MS office apps are available, IMO its not exactly ideal on a small phone screen but its doable if needed. A phone is a computer that fits in a pocket so I don't see why I shouldn't be able to use Github or be able to download an alternative to youtube with an integrated ad blocker.

 

I could not effectively do my job without my phone, in fact in a lot of situations it would be impossible. For one my work provided phone has the MFA app on it required for privileged administrator logins to multiple different systems so no they aren't just for entertainment. Additionally I also use it for communication be it emails, Teams or phone calls and I do use it to access documents to read or to take photos to use later for documentation purposes or to send during real time support, like asset ID of switch and ports plugged in etc.

 

A phone is actually quite critical to my work which is why one is provided. No other device can replace this, not a tablet, not a laptop, not a MFA standalone token, none of them are complete replacements for the phone.

[leadeater]

5 hours ago, Kisai said:

So you would rather Apple have to support complete idiots bricking their phone because they decided to install a 30GB third party game such as fortnite that runs the flash out of space, so the OS then fails to update because it also runs out of space?

If Apple can't do a free space check before install then you and Apple have a problem, one I have no need to fix. Since I know Apple's quality control is not this bad then it's a problem that only exists in your mind 

 

Neither does your solution actually address this issue you are trying to say could happen either, turning off sideloading doesn't make 30GB of data and 99% space used go away, it's all still there. Not a well thought out rebuttal. 

[darknessblade]

11 minutes ago, leadeater said:

If Apple can't do a free space check before install then you and Apple have a problem, one I have no need to fix. Since I know Apple's quality control is not this bad then it's a problem that only exists in your mind 

 

Neither does your solution actually address this issue you are trying to say could happen either, turning off sideloading doesn't make 30GB of data and 99% space used go away, it's all still there. Not a well thought out rebuttal. 

Usually systems already have a large portion of the storage RESERVED, for updates. which it clears out, then updates the phone, and refills it back after removing the update.

 

At least that is what I noticed that happens on android phones/tablets. 

 

Which is in my opinion a better system. as you will never run out of space, for a "essential" update.

 

[WhitetailAni]

8 hours ago, Elijah Kamski said:

I know XD

But we might as well make it at the log on page if people are afraid of security risks or cannot log into their iPhones or whatever because of a sideloaded app somehow XD

??????????????

This makes absolutely no sense. Erase all Contents and Settings is right where it should be.

1 hour ago, darknessblade said:

Usually systems already have a large portion of the storage RESERVED, for updates. which it clears out, then updates the phone, and refills it back after removing the update.

LOL, I wish iOS did that. It stores its OTA updates with user data in /var.

At least you can delete them now! That was added in iOS 11.3.

[HRD]

2 hours ago, leadeater said:

Just because people are using a product doesn't actually mean there is a completely healthy customer to company relationship going on. Companies can be offering good products and services that people are happy to use while also having terms and conditions of those that are not consumer friendly and may fall under the purview of regulators, that's the premise of this situation at heart, not whether people are happy using iPhones and iOS.

iOS users are happy and you want to break that very thing that make them happy.

 

2 hours ago, leadeater said:

Also just to make it clear because we have been talking in a way as if sideloading isn't a thing on iOS and iPhones when it is already a thing, so any fears about something breaking or massive changes required by Apple or w/e else just don't apply. The issue is that sideloading is restricted in such a way that it's beyond prohibitive to generally use it in a free manor to install apps, all that is required is a change to how those restrictions are applied and the desires of those that want to be able to better utilize it will be addressed. And it could still be done in such a way that it would be unattractive to Facebook or Epic to try and push down that path so only those that really specifically want to utilize this capability will, not those that just want to play Fortnite or continue using their Facebook app.

We already have that way. Developers can side-load their apps to their phones to test them while making it impractical for big companies to utilize that method. 
 

I don’t want that gate to be open with an easier way to side-load because the companies that are calling for it are never going to be satisfied without a complete removal of all restrictions. For example, Part of epic lawsuit against Google is that there are warnings before side-loading.

Also, when apple made the case that developers can communicate through email epic responded that there is an extra step to get the email which is taking consent from the user the judge obviously sided with apple on that one and said it’s privacy preservation for the user. 

[DANK_AS_gay]

5 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

What has that to do with sideloading specifically? Do you have any data on that? 

 

You missed a lot. 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/680705/global-android-malware-volume/#:~:text=Development of Android malware worldwide 2016-2020&text=As of March 2020%2C the,of malware affecting Android devices.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/681006/share-of-android-types-of-malware/

Trojans are, by definition sideloading. Opening a platform to sideloading opens it to trojans, as demonstrated by the data on an OS that supports it for consumers.

[DANK_AS_gay]

5 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

A smartphone can be for work as well, which is why MS office apps are available, IMO its not exactly ideal on a small phone screen but its doable if needed.

That's why I specified "realistically". You can do productivity things on a smartphone, but the form factor is not ideal for it.

 

5 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

youtube with an integrated ad blocker.

That is something you will have to take up with Google, as they do not and are not taking kindly to YouTube Vanced.

5 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

How would it negatively affect the user base if almost no one sideloads? That is the excuse I noticed people making in this thread, and if it were optional hidden in some menus it would only affect the people that would know how to sideload.

My point is that as soon as the option is open, people are going to start making trojans, since it would now be possible to not have to go through the process every legitimate developer has to go through to get their program to the user. And while they have to go through a menu, that doesn't matter if the user thinks they are installing something they trust. Every time I download the latest update of RPCS3 on my Mac, it tells me that it is from an unidentified developer, and then won't let me run it. I then have to right-click, hit open, hit "open anyways", and then it opens. If a user thinks they are installing the cracked version of a game, or they think that their phone is infected with a virus:

 

They will go through the "necessary steps to protect their device", as demonstrated by the massive proportion of Android malware that is Trojan. There wouldn't be 400,000 plus new malware per month, if it wasn't actually doing something. How much it is doing is unclear, but the point is that Apple has fas fewer viruses and vulnerabilities, and a part of that, whether or not a significant part is up for debate, is due to their lock on not allowing any applications not from the App Store from running. (Enterprise notwithstanding)

[DANK_AS_gay]

5 hours ago, mr moose said:

 

The insinuation was that vetting which software can be installed on a device is what underpins higher security, which means the hardware type is irrelevant. 

Thanks. I was confused as to why, if we were talking about security, hardware vulnerabilities did not come into play. This makes more sense.

[DANK_AS_gay]

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

A phone is actually quite critical to my work

Which is why I specified smartphone, some of what you said can be fulfilled by a flip phone from a gas station, whose only purpose is to make calls and texts, and take awful pictures. Although, the MFA  uses your smartphone, and probably your fingerprint via your smartphone, is something almost exclusive to smartphones (fingerprint sensors could be used on another device, a laptop of some sort, but it likely isn't as convenient). I'm not saying that everyone always uses smartphones for entertainment, I'm saying that their main purpose is entertainment. 

(‘This Caller is on Hold’ survey conducted by Mobiles.co.uk in March 2017)

Note that texting, FaceBook, the camera (if we are talking about tiktok/snapchat), Reading the news, WhatsApp, and Watching videos on YouTube are all entertainment.

[DANK_AS_gay]

4 hours ago, mr moose said:

arguing that no one should be allowed to sell their apps elsewhere because you feel safe with the app store is not a valid argument against side loading.

I'm not saying that, if that is what you think I am doing. I'm not sure if it is, but if it is...

I think that what Apple is doing is unfair with their cut, same thing with many other platforms. Now that loot boxes are getting investigated by several governments, the State of Hawaii being the main advocate against them in the US last time I checked, the ways to get a profit are getting smaller and smaller. I get that developers are strapped for cash, given the complexity of games going up, the development times going up, and the price staying the same despite this inflation in complexity and money required to develop. That makes sense. Apple taking 30% at this point is unacceptable. Making the App store more open, IMO, is the best solution. Why does Epic Games need to sideload Fortnite to do 3rd party payment options? They clearly can do it without sideloading, in fact, they did to start this whole debacle. So, why not make that an option? There are other ways to monetize the App Store. Purchases elsewhere should be fine, so long as your app is hosted on the App Store. (IMO) That way, the developers get the money, Apple gets to keep their safety and privacy advantage.

It is important to remember that Epic games doesn't give a shit about you, just like every other company. They are not sentient, and the people running them at the top are usually sub-human. Epic games is doing this for their profit, not because they give two drops in a bucket about your rights.

[RejZoR]

I still don't understand everyone complaining and whining over Apple, iPhones and iOS. I mean, if you hate it with such burning passion, why do you so desperately want to use it and demand it changes to your will? Can't you all just bugger off and buy your beloved overpraised and overhyped Android phone and live a happy life? It's not that I read everywhere how Android phones are so much more advanced, brought so many innovative features, have so many more features, allow this endless freedom of everything, yet for some fucked up dumb reason those same people want so desperately to use iPhone... WHY? I can't understand the level of stupidity involved here.

 

I actually don't want iOS to turn into another degeneracy of Android. I left that pile of feces literally because it was a pile of feces and went with iOS. It might also be a pile of feces, but it's at least a different pile of feces that I ended up preferring. Everyone crying how there is no choice yet there literally is one. Don't like Android phones? Then go with iPhone. Don't like iPhone, well pick between 500 billion Android phone variants. Complaining there are just 2 options is a bit stupid given that most of things currently are a duopoly. Intel-AMD, AMD-NVIDIA, Android-iOS etc. But this is LTT where Apple is bad and everything else is good so I don't even expect a rational discussion because people here will hate on Apple no matter what anyone says. But most iPhone users are iPhone users for a very good reason. Even more so users who have ditched Android phones and are now on iPhones for several years. I know I wouldn't be using an iPhone for 3+ years if it was so god awful as everyone is trying to portray it over here. Another good point is Anthony from LTT actually. He's the god of tweaking and fiddling with everything possible and impossible, yet he prefers an iPhone. Go figure, right?

[Mark Kaine]

1 hour ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

You missed a lot. 

 

1 hour ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

Trojans are, by definition sideloading. Opening a platform to sideloading opens it to trojans, as demonstrated by the data on an OS that supports it for consumers.

Sorry it doesnt say anything about sideloading in those links…

 

Do you have a reliable source for your claims that most malware on android comes from sideloading, or no?

 

 

[DANK_AS_gay]

7 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

 

Sorry it doesnt say anything about sideloading in those links…

 

Do you have a reliable source for your claims that most malware on android comes from sideloading, or no?

 

 

I cannot find anything (as in "a reliable source") on the nature of the trojans, which by definition are sideloaded, unless you know of some trojans that are on the Google Play store.

[darknessblade]

1 minute ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

I cannot find anything (as in "a reliable source") on the nature of the trojans, which by definition are sideloaded, unless you know of some trojans that are on the Google Play store.

Here you go

https://www.techradar.com/news/us-defense-contractor-planted-dozens-of-malicious-apps-on-google-play

[DANK_AS_gay]

1 minute ago, darknessblade said:

Here you go

https://www.techradar.com/news/us-defense-contractor-planted-dozens-of-malicious-apps-on-google-play

"Dozens" vs the 400,000 per month that the Statistica page cited. What about the other 399,976?

[Mark Kaine]

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

I still don't understand everyone complaining and whining over Apple, iPhones and iOS. I mean, if you hate it with such burning passion, why do you so desperately want to use it and demand it changes to your will? Can't you all just bugger off and buy your beloved […]

Look, its not so much that Im personally affected, even though in some indirect ways I am … its more this sort of anti competitive behaviour affects everyone negatively… thats why the EU is doing this new DMA law, and as i said previously, of course apple (amongst others) will fight tooth and nail to keep their unfair advantage as a gatekeeper. But a fairer environment will be better for everyone in the end (except  for the "gatekeepers" of course, who also hamper innovation by the way, by making it nigh impossible for smaller competitors to grow) if you agree or not , doesnt exactly matter, the laws will go in effect soon… (in the EU anyways) 

 

So while you're of course free to voice your opinion, you should also realize this isnt an attack on you or your habits, its just something you have to deal with most likely going forward and that you can mostly ignore and you also can just keep on not sideloading, there wont be a big change for you personally at all, not by the sideloading  aspect at least  (just for everyone else who prefers more freedom and more balanced market environment)

 

Basically  stop complaing about non existent complainers*, no one is complaining, except people who are against fairer market  regulations (so probably not android users, even though android / google will be affected also)

 

*or dont of course, its just weird reading, its not exactly clear who you are complaining about, if anything it should be the EU commission (who seems dead set on this thing though, and for good reason)

[Mark Kaine]

14 minutes ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

"Dozens" vs the 400,000 per month that the Statistica page cited. What about the other 399,976?

Note… i already knew about the play store thing… its also not an isolated occurrence afaik, but this is *not* sideloading …

 

And Im also aware that sideloading  is a potential risk - I said as much, but the way you framed your answers and arguments that all this comes from sideloading just isnt a good basis for a discussion about exactly that topic without some reliable sources as there are obviously other attack vectors (such as emails, etc, if i had to guess…)

 

 

[RejZoR]

1 minute ago, Mark Kaine said:

Look, its not so much that Im personally affected, even though in some indirect ways I am … its more this sort of anti competitive behaviour affects everyone negatively… thats why the EU is doing this new DMA law, and as i said previously, of course apple (amongst others) will fight tooth and nail to keep their unfair advantage as a gatekeeper. But a fairer environment will be better for everyone in the end (except  for the "gatekeepers" of course, who also hamper innovation by the way, by making it nigh impossible for smaller competitors to grow) if you agree or not , doesnt exactly matter, the laws will go in effect soon… (in the EU anyways) 

 

So while you're of course free to voice your opinion, you should also realize this isnt an attack on you or your habits, its just something you have to deal with most likely going forwarding and that you can mostly ignore and you also can just keep on not sideloading, there wont be a big change for you personally at all, not by the sideloading  aspect at least  (just for everyone else who prefers more freedom and more balanced market environment)

 

Basically  stop complaing about non existent complainers*, no one is complaining, except people who are against fairer market  regulations (so probably not android users, even though android / google will be affected also)

 

*or dont of course, its just weird reading, its not exactly clear who you are complaining about, if anything it should be the EU commission (who seems dead set on this thing though, and for good reason)

It's not anti-competitive behavior, it's an alternate option. I ditched Android and went with iOS because of how drastically different it is and if it's entirely different, you also ditch all the idiocies and problems of Android behind. Entirely. If everyone just wants to turn iOS into same dumpsterfire as Android is, then thanks for that I guess. We'll have so much option then! Yeah, no thanks, I'd rather have iOS in all its limited glory than have it emulate any part of Android. Been there, hated Android basically from day 1 because of how stupidly it was and still is maintained and how dumb and broken it is from user's perspective. I'm talking basic shit like phone feeling the same as when it was new. On iPhone, 3 years after release without a single factory reset and it feels like absolutely brand new device. Every single Android phone I had in last 8 years just degraded to a point it was just plain useless stuttering trash. Factory reset restored that for a short time and then it reverted to shit again very quickly. And don't get me started with piss poor software support by pretty much ALL Android phone vendors. The most laughable thing is Google's own Pixel phones. You'd expect phone made by the creator of the Android OS itself would be the best shit ever, right? Nope. It's one of most buggy phones out there made by a company who's primarily a software company and who's the actual creator of the OS itself. What good is all the freedom and ability to tweak and sideload shit when it's just broken as it is. iOS has issues and they happen after major updates more as well, I'm not pretending they aren't, but the way Apple delivers updates is just absolutely sublime and they seem to actually fix shit. Unlike the other side...

 

All you people want is "competition" that's essentially what all the 100 Android variants are. So much choice and its all pure garbage. And you all so desperately want iOS to become 101 variant of it. As much as I'd want "freedom", I literally don't want it. Because lack of freedom is beneficial in iOS's case whether you like/admit it or not. iOS works and I wouldn't want it any other way to be honest. It seems like Android users are just massively butthurt about iOS. Nothing else. It's like desperately wanting BMW and then bitching why it doesn't drive or look more like Toyota. Just buy a f**king Toyota then. Jesus.

[Mark Kaine]

28 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

It's not anti-competitive behavior, it's an alternate option. I ditched Android and went with iOS because of how drastically different it is and if it's entirely different, you also ditch all the idiocies and problems of Android behind. Entirely. If everyone just wants to turn iOS into same dumpsterfire as Android is, then thanks for that I guess. We'll have so much option then! Yeah, no thanks, I'd rather have iOS in all its limited glory than have it emulate any part of Android. Been there, hated Android basically from day 1 because of how stupidly it was and still is maintained and how dumb and broken it is from user's perspective. I'm talking basic shit like phone feeling the same as when it was new. On iPhone, 3 years after release without a single factory reset and it feels like absolutely brand new device. Every single Android phone I had in last 8 years just degraded to a point it was just plain useless stuttering trash. Factory reset restored that for a short time and then it reverted to shit again very quickly. And don't get me started with piss poor software support by pretty much ALL Android phone vendors. The most laughable thing is Google's own Pixel phones. You'd expect phone made by the creator of the Android OS itself would be the best shit ever, right? Nope. It's one of most buggy phones out there made by a company who's primarily a software company and who's the actual creator of the OS itself. What good is all the freedom and ability to tweak and sideload shit when it's just broken as it is. iOS has issues and they happen after major updates more as well, I'm not pretending they aren't, but the way Apple delivers updates is just absolutely sublime and they seem to actually fix shit. Unlike the other side...

 

All you people want is "competition" that's essentially what all the 100 Android variants are. So much choice and its all pure garbage. And you all so desperately want iOS to become 101 variant of it. As much as I'd want "freedom", I literally don't want it. Because lack of freedom is beneficial in iOS's case whether you like/admit it or not. iOS works and I wouldn't want it any other way to be honest. It seems like Android users are just massively butthurt about iOS. Nothing else. It's like desperately wanting BMW and then bitching why it doesn't drive or look more like Toyota. Just buy a f**king Toyota then. Jesus.

The EU disagrees… (and the US too btw)

 

"All you people want is "competition" that's essentially what all the 100 Android variants are."

 

Honestly no, android is always the same with varying amounts of bloatware - which the DMA also adresses btw = ) 

 

There is no "competition" in that sense, its all just marketing basically.

 

 

"It seems like Android users are just massively butthurt about iOS. Nothing else. It's like desperately wanting BMW and then bitching why it doesn't drive or look more like Toyota. Just buy a f**king Toyota then. Jesus."

 

You keep doing it lol. No, i dont actually want to buy an iphone, its not attractive to me. But Im also not making the law, you have to direct your discontent to the EU commission - while also realizing (maybe, finally) that this law/proposal is far bigger than just "apple"

 

(personally i would welcome companies like apple, facebook, and yes even google to just go away, which they already "threatened" …there will be better alternatives in no time… of course this is unlikely to happen, EU market is far too important for the bottom line of these companies to just give up… )