You think it's a big step-up from 25W to 45W charging? - You might be wrong!

[mr moose]

Just now, Doobeedoo said:

Have you used both type of phones? They are degrade roughly around same. I never said those faster chargers are better in a way to protect the battery, the whole circuitry in the phone is where it's at. Usually battery split in dual cells, temp probes keeping temp cool enough. No matter how slow a phone charges, that battery will still be bad over years of use. 

I have an education.    You don't need to use every device on the planet when you are specifically educated in said discipline.  

 

Just so you know:

You can't compare different phones with different batteries.  IF you want to compare charging rates versus battery degradation then you have to use the same battery for all tests over multiple devices.  Otherwise you are not adequately accounting for device specific traits.  

 

Lithium batteries don't like extremes, they essentially will die early if you charge too high/long, discharge them too fast, charge them too fast or they get too hot.    This is why a battery that is 125% of the devices requirements but only charged to 80% will last longer than a 100% sized battery charged to full (ignoring temperature and speed of charge) even though they will both have the same run time.  If you fast charge you further degrade the battery every cycle just as if you would be charging to full capacity.   

 

This is why I am always harping on about manufactures not installing big enough batteries and then trying to make up for it with software compensation (which is cheaper). 

 

 

[Doobeedoo]

12 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I have an education.    You don't need to use every device on the planet when you are specifically educated in said discipline.  

 

Just so you know:

You can't compare different phones with different batteries.  IF you want to compare charging rates versus battery degradation then you have to use the same battery for all tests over multiple devices.  Otherwise you are not adequately accounting for device specific traits.  

 

Lithium batteries don't like extremes, they essentially will die early if you charge too high/long, discharge them too fast, charge them too fast or they get too hot.    This is why a battery that is 125% of the devices requirements but only charged to 80% will last longer than a 100% sized battery charged to full (ignoring temperature and speed of charge) even though they will both have the same run time.  If you fast charge you further degrade the battery every cycle just as if you would be charging to full capacity.   

 

This is why I am always harping on about manufactures not installing big enough batteries and then trying to make up for it with software compensation (which is cheaper). 

 

 

Battery engineer or something? I'm not saying you need to test every phone, but just observing or owning or seeing from others over the years how battery is after longer period.

 

I'm aware it's not exactly comparing the same battery, the can differ in capacity etc between phones, though in the sense doesn't matter because real world is real world what phones have in them is what it is in the end. 

 

I'm aware they don't like extremes, charging between 20-80 is good for what I'm aware, leaving it idle around mid like the best, reason we find them half charged in new boxes. That's completely another thing, if a certain manufacturer packs a larger capacity battery but reports it to a phone in less capacity. Many don't do that anyway. I'd mostly charge my phone to full when I know I'd be using it after it, go out etc. Still, my phone charges at 18W and battery degraded by 1/3 that's insane degradation just over few years daily charge. I've seen newer phones that have much faster charging speeds and over years retained longer of their original max capacity. That's just one example.

 

We're seeing some very fast charging demos lately, that will be interesting to see in the future and how they last. But still due to nature of lithium batteries regardless how you charge of care for them, they still lose their health over time of use anyway.

I wish we see larger capacity ones already in flagships. Like 7000mAh one.

[mr moose]

47 minutes ago, Doobeedoo said:

Battery engineer or something?

Several accreditation's up to diploma in EE, not full degree (I got bored and started concentrating on audio electronics).

 

47 minutes ago, Doobeedoo said:

 

We're seeing some very fast charging demos lately, that will be interesting to see in the future and how they last. But still due to nature of lithium batteries regardless how you charge of care for them, they still lose their health over time of use anyway.

While this is true, the battery science community is still not sure how to do it without further degrading the battery (I could link to several published research papers but they all say the same thing;  "we don't know how to measure that").   One of the known reasons is oxidation of the cathode, the more current you push into a cell the higher the rate of oxidation which results in cell degradation. 

 

 

Sure they can fast charge today, however the many of the tests show early degradation when compared to average charging speed.    This has been observed mostly in the EV world where range anxiety and charge times greatly effect buyer confidence.  But the chemical composition of EV lithium and Phone lithium batteries is pretty much the same, which means the same degradation will be observed there too if proper precautions aren't taken.

 

 

47 minutes ago, Doobeedoo said:

I wish we see larger capacity ones already in flagships. Like 7000mAh one.

With new phones becoming more efficient,  larger capacities may not be necessary, however I still maintain that a lot of phones have under spec'd batteries for the use they receive in the real world.

[Quackers101]

6 hours ago, Obioban said:

I mean, it does matter-- that's exactly the point. Faster charging means battery degradation happens over fewer cycles.

Yes and no, to what extent? By what or how much faster? To when and what is one really need to worry about. Overheating is on the list, or heat degradation.

10 hours ago, Lurick said:

but my S21 and S22 have a "limit battery to 85%" option on Android 12 (it might have been there on 11 and I didn't see it)

Not sure, think its from the newer OEM than android version. can be wrong, wish I had that. might be hidden tho.

 

(Was able to get android 12 at least, unsure about android 13) xp

[Quackers101]

1 hour ago, Doobeedoo said:

I'm aware it's not exactly comparing the same battery, the can differ in capacity etc between phones, though in the sense doesn't matter because real world is real world what phones have in them is what it is in the end. 

 

I'm aware they don't like extremes, charging between 20-80 is good for what I'm aware,

Also most branded phones will have hopefully decent batteries with safety and maybe thermal control. So even if trying to charge faster, it will have some level of control? Although not all batteries are the same and if they are in parallel or not.

[Doobeedoo]

44 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Several accreditation's up to diploma in EE, not full degree (I got bored and started concentrating on audio electronics).

 

While this is true, the battery science community is still not sure how to do it without further degrading the battery (I could link to several published research papers but they all say the same thing;  "we don't know how to measure that").   One of the known reasons is oxidation of the cathode, the more current you push into a cell the higher the rate of oxidation which results in cell degradation. 

 

 

Sure they can fast charge today, however the many of the tests show early degradation when compared to average charging speed.    This has been observed mostly in the EV world where range anxiety and charge times greatly effect buyer confidence.  But the chemical composition of EV lithium and Phone lithium batteries is pretty much the same, which means the same degradation will be observed there too if proper precautions aren't taken.

 

 

With new phones becoming more efficient,  larger capacities may not be necessary, however I still maintain that a lot of phones have under spec'd batteries for the use they receive in the real world.

Oppo here demoed some stuff, there's about their faster charging, the 240W one and their battery healing tech and how they aim to improve upon battery health. Retaining more charge cycles along with battery design. https://www.gsmarena.com/oppo_unveils_150w_supervooc_charger_and_battery_healing_technology-news-53360.php

So rather interesting. One day to look forward to solid state battery to come, but yeah who knows when. 

 

Yes many flagships if not all kinda lack in battery capacity. Really if you're a heavy user, you can burn through any phone from morning to night if you do a lot of stuff. They pack a lot of crap, so many camera modules and other things, so not enough for battery. There are low spec phones with much larger, but sadly not in flagships. Certain gaming phones do have a higher capacity though.

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, Doobeedoo said:

Oppo here demoed some stuff, there's about their faster charging, the 240W one and their battery healing tech and how they aim to improve upon battery health. Retaining more charge cycles along with battery design. https://www.gsmarena.com/oppo_unveils_150w_supervooc_charger_and_battery_healing_technology-news-53360.php

So rather interesting. One day to look forward to solid state battery to come, but yeah who knows when. 

 

Yes many flagships if not all kinda lack in battery capacity. Really if you're a heavy user, you can burn through any phone from morning to night if you do a lot of stuff. They pack a lot of crap, so many camera modules and other things, so not enough for battery. There are low spec phones with much larger, but sadly not in flagships. Certain gaming phones do have a higher capacity though.

It will be very interesting to see how that one turns out in the real world.   I would love to know how they are electrically testing for oxidation on the negative terminal (part of the 1600 patents I guess).

[AnonymousGuy]

34 minutes ago, mr moose said:

It will be very interesting to see how that one turns out in the real world.   I would love to know how they are electrically testing for oxidation on the negative terminal (part of the 1600 patents I guess).

It probably just boils down to the resistance of the thing.  Hotter?  More resistance.  Oxidation?  More resistance.  Closer to full charge?  More resistance.  ANd then some sort of feedback cycle where more current is always more heat which creates more resistance which makes more heat.

 

Tesla can probably gobble it up because it's actively cooled and a shitload of parallel packs but there's just no way to do that with phones so it's become some dick measure spec of "45w" [for 30 seconds] or the OEM saying "fuck it" and killing the battery knowing their phones are 12 month throwaways anyways.  Tesla does the [for 30 second] thing where you only hit 250kW for a few minutes and then it immediately drops down.

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, AnonymousGuy said:

It probably just boils down to the resistance of the thing.  Hotter?  More resistance.  Oxidation?  More resistance.  Closer to full charge?  More resistance.  ANd then some sort of feedback cycle where more current is always more heat which creates more resistance which makes more heat.

Oxidation on the cathode actually means that the lithium ions become bound up which means the batteries capacity falls (degradation), internal heat definitely changes resistance (but resistance goes down with heat not up, it goes up as the battery drops to 0c because the electrolyte begins to thicken), also current during charging changes the polarization resistance, so it's really quite a complex thing going on inside with both ohmic and non ohmic resistance. 

 

2 hours ago, AnonymousGuy said:

Tesla can probably gobble it up because it's actively cooled and a shitload of parallel packs but there's just no way to do that with phones so it's become some dick measure spec of "45w" [for 30 seconds] or the OEM saying "fuck it" and killing the battery knowing their phones are 12 month throwaways anyways.  Tesla does the [for 30 second] thing where you only hit 250kW for a few minutes and then it immediately drops down.

EV's with cooled batteries do experience less of the fast charging issues,  however the difference between cars and phones is that no on has range anxiety on their phone, so no one even knows when it dies early that they could have gotten another half a year out of it had it been bigger,  charged slower, charged to only 80% etc etc etc.

 

 

[Curufinwe_wins]

46 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Oxidation on the cathode actually means that the lithium ions become bound up which means the batteries capacity falls (degradation), internal heat definitely changes resistance (but resistance goes down with heat not up, it goes up as the battery drops to 0c because the electrolyte begins to thicken), also current during charging changes the polarization resistance, so it's really quite a complex thing going on inside with both ohmic and non ohmic resistance. 

 

EV's with cooled batteries do experience less of the fast charging issues,  however the difference between cars and phones is that no on has range anxiety on their phone, so no one even knows when it dies early that they could have gotten another half a year out of it had it been bigger,  charged slower, charged to only 80% etc etc etc.

 

 

The lack of clear overprovisioning, even to the extent that car manufacturers clearly do it (Tesla is quite an outlier and even they generally only show around 95% of real capacity, and that is without considering they also recommend charging to at most 90% of *that* 95%), is my single greatest gripe with current mobile devices.

 

If manufacturers advertised a 5k battery, put a 5500 in there and then left the other 10% as overprovisioning, the amount of lifespan improvement would almost certainly be dramatic.

[mr moose]

8 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

The lack of clear overprovisioning, even to the extent that car manufacturers clearly do it (Tesla is quite an outlier and even they generally only show around 90% of real capacity, and that is without considering they also recommend charging to at most 90% of *that* 90%), is my single greatest gripe with current mobile devices.

 

If manufacturers advertised a 5k battery, put a 5500 in there and then left the other 10% as overprovisioning, the amount of lifespan improvement would almost certainly be dramatic.

I haven't really looked into the cars, but I would assume while putting in a battery pack at say 120% of the requirement then only charging it to 80% would dramatically increase lifespan, that it would also make an already expensive car even more expensive.

[Curufinwe_wins]

14 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I haven't really looked into the cars, but I would assume while putting in a battery pack at say 120% of the requirement then only charging it to 80% would dramatically increase lifespan, that it would also make an already expensive car even more expensive.

Most other car manufacturers seem to be making 100% seem available, but that 100% is of around 80-90% total. For example Mach-E extended has a 98 kWh batter rated at 88 (91) usable.

 

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a36051980/evs-explained-battery-capacity-gross-versus-net/