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The U.S. is considering whether to adopt a digital version of its currency

poochyena
By poochyena
in Tech News
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9 hours ago, Kisai said:

Because not everything that is "illegal" is "immoral"

 

Think about birth control services. Most people don't want that information to be known for a variety of reasons. 

 

Cash affords people privacy at the risk of being ripped off. Digital cash can quite literately create situations where an underground economy exists entirely because of living in the boonies or in a state or city run by idiots, so services that are legal in states or cities with higher quality of life aren't available, and the services end up being provided ad-hoc.

 

Like it's always a double-edged sword to move to an all-digital currency/payment system. On the plus side, every transaction is logged and tracked, making it hard to create fraudulent activity, and the taxman gets their cut. On the negative side, people are people and will seek to minimize their exposure to taxes by doing things like having forwarding addresses in tax-free jurisdictions, or businesses incorporated there. Remember "the panama papers" was and still is a thing precisely because of this.

Unless you are buying illegal drugs on illegaldrugs.com and then publicly posting your banking transaction, how would a 3rd party know you bought something illegal?

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Posted
On 2/7/2022 at 11:49 AM, GhostRoadieBL said:

this is a very complex issue, how do you fully digitize something which requires a physical value backing to have a "value"?

Bruv what the USD got off the gold standard decades ago and is a fiat based currency. It's simple backed by the government saying it has value and everyone agrees on it

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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3 hours ago, poochyena said:

Unless you are buying illegal drugs on illegaldrugs.com and then publicly posting your banking transaction, how would a 3rd party know you bought something illegal?

 

That's what underground economies are. If a digital currency replaces an old paper one, then when you need to do something underground, you end up paying people in proxies for cash, like casino chips and gift cards.

 

Like, that's the situation we have now anyways. Scammers want you to pay them in bitcoin, giftcards, game timecards and other things that can be readily ebay'd.

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18 minutes ago, Kisai said:

If a digital currency replaces an old paper one, then when you need to do something underground, you end up paying people in proxies for cash, like casino chips and gift cards.

I'm asking why would you do that? Why not just pay for it using the regular digital currency?

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10 minutes ago, poochyena said:

I'm asking why would you do that? Why not just pay for it using the regular digital currency?

This is all speculative, so don't @ me about the examples.

 

Let's use some off-the-top-of-my-head examples.

1. What if you wanted to get an abortion. It's illegal in several US states, so you'd have to go to another state to do it, and you definitely do not want nannystate knowing you did it.

2. What if you wanted to buy something that you know is illegal in your state, while you are out of state. You don't want the nannystate to retroactively arrest you for it.

3. Gangs are certainly not going to register weapons and drugs with the nannystate digital currency.

4. Unlicensed gambling definitely doesn't want to be seen with nannystate digital currency. (There is a reason why "poker games" are a cover for money laundering.)

5. People selling their body, or making porn, don't want the nannystate to know

6. People who want to remain anonymous/witness protection (eg an informant in a criminal investigation) don't want anything being traced to them.

7. Private Detective work, Insurance Investigators, collections agencies and even towing companies are going to be doing work where there is no digital services. You send someone to go investigate someone else, you don't want to tip them off.

8. Hiring people off-the-book for just about any reason.

9. Hiring drivers, body guards, bouncers, or pretty much any one-time security professional that you don't want the name of the client to be connected to.

 

Digital currencies are a double-edged sword. At least paper money can not be traced back to a transaction until it gets counted at a bank, and can change hands hundreds of times, like at a casino before it does.  

 

But when you start dealing with things that either should be illegal, or are only illegal because of very stupid reasons, or need to be off-the-book because of security, privacy, or safety reasons, you start realizing that if one kind of currency doesn't offer enough privacy, you will then pay people in other means.

 

Hence gift cards are are significant means of keeping anonymous. You buy the card, load a value, and then pass the card to the other individual, and you never have to know what it was spent on, and the person who has the card, never has to know who paid for it. Hell, you can even pass the gift card on just like cash to other people if you don't shop at that store, or hawk it on eBay.

 

https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/files/money-and-payments-20220120.pdf

 

Quote

The Federal Reserve will continue to explore a wide range of design options for a CBDC. While no decisions have been made on whether to pursue a CBDC, analysis to date suggests that a potential U.S. CBDC, if one were created, would best serve the needs of the United States by being privacy-protected, intermediated, widely transferable, and identity-verified.

 

Privacy-protected: Protecting consumer privacy is critical. Any CBDC would need to strike an appropriate balance, however, between safeguarding the privacy rights of consumers and affording the transparency necessary to deter criminal activity.

 

Intermediated: The Federal Reserve Act does not authorize direct Federal Reserve accounts for individuals, and such accounts would represent a significant expansion of the Federal Reserve’s role in the financial system and the economy. Under an intermediated model, the private sector would offer accounts or digital wallets to facilitate the management of CBDC holdings and payments. Potential intermediaries could include commercial banks and regulated nonbank financial service providers, and would operate in an open market for CBDC services. Although commercial banks and nonbanks would offer services to individuals to manage their CBDC holdings and payments, the CBDC itself would be a liability of the Federal Reserve. An intermediated model would facilitate the use of the private sector’s existing privacy and identity-management frameworks; leverage the private sector’s ability to innovate; and reduce the prospects for destabilizing disruptions to the well-functioning U.S. financial system.

 

Transferable: For a CBDC to serve as a widely accessible means of payment, it would need to be readily transferable between customers of different intermediaries. The ability to transfer value seamlessly between different intermediaries makes the payment system more efficient by allowing money to move freely throughout the economy.

 

Identity-verified: Financial institutions in the United States are subject to robust rules that are designed to combat money laundering and the financing of terrorism. A CBDC would need to be designed to comply with these rules. In practice, this would mean that a CBDC intermediary would need to verify the identity of a person accessing CBDC, just as banks and other financial institutions currently verify the identities of their customers.

Quote

Privacy and Data Protection and the Prevention of Financial Crimes

 

Any CBDC would need to strike an appropriate balance between safeguarding consumer privacy rights and affording the transparency necessary to deter criminal activity.

 

Consumer privacy: A general-purpose CBDC would generate data about users’ financial transactions in the same ways that commercial bank and nonbank money generates such data today. In the intermediated CBDC model that the Federal Reserve would consider, intermediaries would address privacy concerns by leveraging existing tools.

 

Prevention of financial crimes: Relatedly, financial institutions must comply with a robust set of rules that are designed to combat money laundering and the financing of terrorism. These rules include customer due diligence, recordkeeping, and reporting requirements. As noted above, any CBDC would need to be designed in a manner that facilitates compliance with these rules. Intermediated models for a U.S. CBDC have the distinct advantage of involving private-sector partners with established programs to help ensure compliance with these rules.

 

My point, is that digital currencies are overtly about tracking, and record keeping. It may be permit scrubbing the identity of the individual in the transaction, but that doesn't scrub the fact that you may have paid someone, at some place, at some time. So everything that is about protecting privacy, also permits criminal activity.

 

Short of all the US states, and various countries that use the US Dollar agreeing to stop making certain stupid things illegal, there will be underground economies that exist entirely to protect the privacy of people.

 

You always see these arguments when a chain store in the US doesn't accept paper currency. People don't want to buy condoms, adult diapers, and period pads with their debit/credit cards because they are embarrassed to even put the thing in their shopping cart, and don't want the cashier to give them a dirty look or automated checkout announcing what they're buying.

 

There is a lot of "US Culture" that is seen in films and TV shows that are a direct result of stupid nannystate laws, because the reality is that "the nannystate doesn't care that much, but people enjoy power, and reporting people breaking stupid laws is a powertrip"

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Kisai said:

so you'd have to go to another state to do it, and you definitely do not want nannystate knowing you did it.

why not? if its legal in the other state, it doesn't matter if they know or not.

30 minutes ago, Kisai said:

2. What if you wanted to buy something that you know is illegal in your state, while you are out of state. You don't want the nannystate to retroactively arrest you for it.

uhh, thats not how laws work lol
If you do something thats legal in the area you are in.. then its legal. Where you traveled from is irrelevant. Unless you are trying to smuggle things somewhere.

33 minutes ago, Kisai said:

3. Gangs are certainly not going to register weapons and drugs with the nannystate digital currency.

Right, they steal them, but thats not really relevant.

35 minutes ago, Kisai said:

5. People selling their body, or making porn, don't want the nannystate to know

why

36 minutes ago, Kisai said:

6. People who want to remain anonymous/witness protection (eg an informant in a criminal investigation) don't want anything being traced to them.

Do they not file tax returns? Because if they do... then i'm not sure what your point is.

37 minutes ago, Kisai said:

7. Private Detective work, Insurance Investigators, collections agencies and even towing companies are going to be doing work where there is no digital services. You send someone to go investigate someone else, you don't want to tip them off.

huh? How would paying for those services with digital currency tip someone off?

38 minutes ago, Kisai said:

8. Hiring people off-the-book for just about any reason.

39 minutes ago, Kisai said:

9. Hiring drivers, body guards, bouncers, or pretty much any one-time security professional that you don't want the name of the client to be connected to.

I don't see how that would be hard to do with digital currency.

41 minutes ago, Kisai said:

At least paper money can not be traced back to a transaction

uhh, yes it can. If I go to Walmart, pay with cash for a jacket, and then return a few days later, I would be able to return that jacket and get my money back.

44 minutes ago, Kisai said:

But when you start dealing with things that either should be illegal, or are only illegal because of very stupid reasons, or need to be off-the-book because of security, privacy, or safety reasons, you start realizing that if one kind of currency doesn't offer enough privacy, you will then pay people in other means.

I just can't understand why you think paying for something digitally can't be private. How could the government know what I buy using digital currency? I could buy sex and drugs from someone using digital cash, how would anyone other than us two know what was bought?

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58 minutes ago, poochyena said:

why not? if its legal in the other state, it doesn't matter if they know or not.

Perhaps you're not aware of nonsense like this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/09/us/abortion-law-regulations-texas.html

 

Texas basically criminalizes, ANYONE who helps in the abortion process, and allows ordinary citizens to be rewarded for doing so. 

 

58 minutes ago, poochyena said:

 

uhh, yes it can. If I go to Walmart, pay with cash for a jacket, and then return a few days later, I would be able to return that jacket and get my money back.

You're not getting the same money back, and you know that. In many cases stores will charge a restocking fee, and require you to leave your contact information to do the return.

 

58 minutes ago, poochyena said:

 

 

I just can't understand why you think paying for something digitally can't be private. How could the government know what I buy using digital currency? I could buy sex and drugs from someone using digital cash, how would anyone other than us two know what was bought?

Because you're always leaving a digital paper trail. Read the actual document I linked from the horses mouth. This is all about making it harder for criminal activity to happen, at that means stripping away privacy that comes from just giving people money. If digital currency takes off, then "only criminals" will still use paper money.

 

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19 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Perhaps you're not aware of nonsense like this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/09/us/abortion-law-regulations-texas.html

 

Texas basically criminalizes, ANYONE who helps in the abortion process, and allows ordinary citizens to be rewarded for doing so.

"anyone helping a woman get an abortion in Texas "

Again, If you do something thats legal in the area you are in.. then its legal. Where you traveled from is irrelevant.

22 minutes ago, Kisai said:

You're not getting the same money back, and you know that.

what do you mean by "same money"? If its costs $10, you get $10. Whether its the same $10 bill or not isn't relevant.

22 minutes ago, Kisai said:

and require you to leave your contact information to do the return.

which implies cash =/= private and anonymous

23 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Because you're always leaving a digital paper trail.

As is true with cash too, as mentioned in the walmart analogy.

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20 hours ago, poochyena said:

Why not? There is absolutely no downside to it.

Thats your subjective viewpoint and my subjective viewpoint based on objective observable history is that governments should not just be blindly trusted. I don't want an unaccountable force to have its hands in my finances. period. you do you, but don't tell me how I must also do.

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3 hours ago, Kisai said:

You're not getting the same money back, and you know that. In many cases stores will charge a restocking fee, and require you to leave your contact information to do the return.

My experience is that lots of stores won't even do actual refunds they'll just do store credit on a gift card that you can use towards your next purchase.

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3 minutes ago, Unclescar said:

I don't want an unaccountable force to have its hands in my finances.

https://www.irs.gov

Hopefully you didn't fill out a W4 when you started working if you live in the US, or the comparable form for what ever country you're in. 

I'm not actually trying to be as grumpy as it seems.

I will find your mentions of Ikea or Gnome and I will /s post. 

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Just now, IkeaGnome said:

Hopefully you didn't fill out a W4 when you started working if you live in the US, or the comparable form for what ever country you're in.

The concern is not that they can view financial situations, the concern is that they would have direct power over those financial situations and also remove all methods of finances that they wouldn't be able to have direct control over. If you don't think that, given the chance, a government wouldn't close down your bank account if you refused to inject yourself with an experimental medicine, you should reconsider. No government should have the authority to rip your ability to live out from under you, they already do a liquid butt ton of terrible things to people and we can't do anything about it because they are the authority.

Digital currency is cool. Digital banking is hella convenient. I like these technologies. I use a lot of them. I don't like the idea of a government being in charge of running them with no other options.

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26 minutes ago, Unclescar said:

I don't want an unaccountable force to have its hands in my finances.

They... already do. They could, right now, take all your money and throw you in jail for literally no stated reason.

15 minutes ago, Unclescar said:

If you don't think that, given the chance, a government wouldn't close down your bank account if you refused to inject yourself with an experimental medicine, you should reconsider.

They literally have the power to do that right now.

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1 hour ago, Unclescar said:

My experience is that lots of stores won't even do actual refunds they'll just do store credit on a gift card that you can use towards your next purchase.

In general, stores in the United States and Canada do one of three things:

1) Full refund to the same payment method (credit/debit), receipt not required, but must be before the merchant's bill cycle, and then it's store credit.

2) Full refund to store credit (Check/Cash) without receipt, or with a receipt but item opened.

3) Full refund to cash with a receipt showing cash if unopened.

 

You'll only get cash refunds on certain things. Like you won't for large objects, because the store won't be able to verify you didn't just reseal the box after swapping the contents.

 

That said, the proposed things would certainly improve the ability to get refunds since you'd no longer need to produce a receipt, you could just look at your purchase history and correlate a transaction id with the store.

 

But my concerns remain, I keep bringing up the abortion point because that texas law reaches outside it's jurisdiction and could potentially screw over people who simply gave someone a taxi ride.

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I can't believe bringing contraband products into a state is being used as an argument for an untraceable currency. 

 

The problem is either A: the law needs to be changed because it is unfair or B you don't understand the consequences of said product.  The solution is not too find a way around it with a new currency, the solution is to lobby for law reform and if you can't get enough support because everyone else has a different opinion,   then the solution is you move to a different state or put up with it.

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

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To keep my argument succinct: just about every argument in favour of cryptocurrenices are either comically redundant with how the world works nowadays, or flimsy strawmen that ultimately expose to the public less than noble intentions

Read the community standards; it's like a guide on how to not be a moron.

 

Gerdauf's Law: Each and every human being, without exception, is the direct carbon copy of the types of people that he/she bitterly opposes.

Remember, calling facts opinions does not ever make the facts opinions, no matter what nonsense you pull.

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16 minutes ago, Colonel_Gerdauf said:

To keep my argument succinct: just about every argument in favour of cryptocurrenices are either comically redundant with how the world works nowadays, or flimsy strawmen that ultimately expose to the public less than noble intentions

Everything that gets migrated to the digital, online realm is of an order of magnitude more susceptible to criminal action than a physical footprint offline.  Far easier to crack a bitcoin wallet and never get caught, than to rob a bank at gunpoint.  Far more lucrative too.

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1 minute ago, IPD said:

Everything that gets migrated to the digital, online realm is of an order of magnitude more susceptible to criminal action than a physical footprint offline.  Far easier to crack a bitcoin wallet and never get caught, than to rob a bank at gunpoint.  Far more lucrative too.

I find this untracable argument to be a bit sus, as the kids these days say it.

We have been seeing case after case after case of people getting criminally caught despite trying to do things in the world of crypto. Crypto alone is not nearly enough to properly cover your tracks, not even close. That argument is often used as a method to dupe idiots into thinking that all they have to do to "completely evade legal systems forever with zero ability of them to trace anything to you" is to do crypto transactions.

Read the community standards; it's like a guide on how to not be a moron.

 

Gerdauf's Law: Each and every human being, without exception, is the direct carbon copy of the types of people that he/she bitterly opposes.

Remember, calling facts opinions does not ever make the facts opinions, no matter what nonsense you pull.

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13 minutes ago, Colonel_Gerdauf said:

I find this untracable argument to be a bit sus, as the kids these days say it.

We have been seeing case after case after case of people getting criminally caught despite trying to do things in the world of crypto. Crypto alone is not nearly enough to properly cover your tracks, not even close. That argument is often used as a method to dupe idiots into thinking that all they have to do to "completely evade legal systems forever with zero ability of them to trace anything to you" is to do crypto transactions.

Oh I agree.  It's not untraceable.  But far easier to not get caught.  Things like this are far too common:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Bank_robbery

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4 minutes ago, IPD said:

But far easier to not get caught.

Press X to doubt

Read the community standards; it's like a guide on how to not be a moron.

 

Gerdauf's Law: Each and every human being, without exception, is the direct carbon copy of the types of people that he/she bitterly opposes.

Remember, calling facts opinions does not ever make the facts opinions, no matter what nonsense you pull.

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Judging by how the US government and it's departments (FBI,IRS,etc) manage vulnerabilities - this idea makes me really worried.

 

I hope either this would be managed by a completely different group of people, in an isolated bubble - or they outsource all of the technical work to the private sector.  Amazon, Google, Microsoft, etc.

 

The good news, is there are many great companies in the US that I know could implement this.  And I think it's a great idea in theory, especially if they want to continue leading the global economy. 

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On 2/7/2022 at 12:19 PM, Avocado Diaboli said:

They can just tell you you can't buy it.

They already do this and it doesn't work. *gestures broadly at illegal items*

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3 hours ago, Natani said:

They already do this and it doesn't work. *gestures broadly at illegal items*

Excuse me if this ends up sounding condescending, but it's a bit of a pet peeve of mine when people quote a single sentence out of a longer statement that ignores that I've already provided an explanation for a trite objection long before it crossed your synapses. For one, I already said that in case of a digital currency that goes through a government, a substitute for value transfer will be found, so you haven't actually added a new facet to the discussion. Black market forces will always exist and short of legitimizing their product, you will never be able to drag them out of their quagmire and regulate them. So any attempt to claim that a digital only currency somehow makes it harder for criminals is only proof of magnificent ignorance.

 

Second, you somehow completely missed the entire rest of my argument that examines the other side of the proverbial coin (pun very much intended) that a digital currency that goes through a government is a bad idea in principle because even though cash allows for the purchase of illegal goods, it is also the only means of truly anonymous value transfer that doesn't leave a record and it only makes it harder to transfer those funds for legitimate purposes that still don't want to leave a trail behind. If that doesn't bother you, then you clearly don't understand why anonymity like this is important even beyond the purchase of merely illegal products and services. It still empowers tyrannical governments to prohibit the purchase of arguably harmless or even benign things without having to enshrine it into law. And I can't fathom anyone who has even a modicum of understanding of how government works couldn't immediately see the difference between some random bureaucrat without oversight mandating something like this and an actual law going into effect and claiming that both are equivalent when they're not. 

 

See, this is why I hate these types of posts that quote a single line out of a longer examination of a topic and believes that it's this supreme "gotcha" that somehow says anything meaningful when it really doesn't and only proves that whoever wrote it didn't spend an ounce of brainpower to really think about the topic at hand.

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On 2/7/2022 at 9:04 AM, poochyena said:

There will be little reason to even use cash once this is implemented

If I'm buying something embarrassing at the local MegaLow Mart, you can be certain that I'll be wearing baggy clothes a face mask and I'll be paying in cash.

Now, pass me my 87 bottles of knock-off Mountain Dew and 8 bags of store brand Doritos.

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Just now, cmndr said:

If I'm buying something embarrassing at the local MegaLow Mart, you can be certain that I'll be wearing baggy clothes a face mask and I'll be paying in cash.

why?

5 minutes ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

It still empowers tyrannical governments to prohibit the purchase of arguably harmless or even benign things without having to enshrine it into law.

It doesn't.

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