Windows 11 - Insider Program - Master Thread

[Maslofski]

so having heard they will run android apps, will we be able to connect a sim card to the pc and use stuff like Whatsapp properly? would be great for older people who refuse smartphones

[Kilrah]

SIM most likely not, but all you need a SIM for is to receive the text message when logging in and that doesn't need to be on the same device, just enter it manually.

[GoodBytes]

3 hours ago, Maslofski said:

so having heard they will run android apps, will we be able to connect a sim card to the pc and use stuff like Whatsapp properly? would be great for older people who refuse smartphones

So, Android app support isn't there yet. We will need to see the limitation of WSA (Windows Subsystem for Android) limitations, if any. We do know that if you side load an app that rely on Google services, then those won't work until Google decides to bring their app store to Windows Store app. (Maybe a workaround will come from the community, but that would take time). The app needs to be on Amazon App Store (which we would be able to get through the Store app of Windows), or sideloading an app that doesn't depend on any other service. 

 

If WSA has access to an LTE/5G modem on the system, then, at the moment, I don't see why it would not work. A phone number would need be to associate with the SIM service for SMS account verification with Whatsapp, and you'll need a SMS app... which Microsoft has in the Store:

https://www.microsoft.com/store/productId/9WZDNCRFJBQ6

It's the old Windows 10 / 10 Mobile one but should do the trick.

 

So, to recap, assuming WhatsApp is on Amazon Store (or can be sideloaded), and that WSA has no limitation on LTE/5G modem access, and then you install the Messaging app of Windows to be able to complete the registration, AND you get a 5G/LTE module for the system if it doesn't have one, AND you have a SIM card with phone number linked to it with SMS support, then it should work.

 

 

[linkboy]

On 8/29/2021 at 9:00 AM, GoodBytes said:

So, Android app support isn't there yet. We will need to see the limitation of WSA (Windows Subsystem for Android) limitations, if any. We do know that if you side load an app that rely on Google services, then those won't work until Google decides to bring their app store to Windows Store app. (Maybe a workaround will come from the community, but that would take time). The app needs to be on Amazon App Store (which we would be able to get through the Store app of Windows), or sideloading an app that doesn't depend on any other service. 

 

If WSA has access to an LTE/5G modem on the system, then, at the moment, I don't see why it would not work. A phone number would need be to associate with the SIM service for SMS account verification with Whatsapp, and you'll need a SMS app... which Microsoft has in the Store:

https://www.microsoft.com/store/productId/9WZDNCRFJBQ6

It's the old Windows 10 / 10 Mobile one but should do the trick.

 

So, to recap, assuming WhatsApp is on Amazon Store (or can be sideloaded), and that WSA has no limitation on LTE/5G modem access, and then you install the Messaging app of Windows to be able to complete the registration, AND you get a 5G/LTE module for the system if it doesn't have one, AND you have a SIM card with phone number linked to it with SMS support, then it should work.

 

 

 

It looks like Android apps won't be available until sometime next year.

[Jontario]

For anyone who's interested UFD Tech did a video comparing Windows 10 and 11 with a newer system and a system with an unsupported cpu. He got very similar results as me but some were a little different. He was using a Ryzen chip instead of 6th gen intel. He found that windows 11 was more power efficient on the newer system and Windows 10 was more efficient on the older system. In real world gaming benchmarks there was no noticeable difference between operating systems. Very interesting video for anyone interested in the differences.

  

[linkboy]

Microsoft split the Dev and Beta channels today. 

 

They released an update to both. 

 

Dev channel moves to build 22449, and Beta was updated to 22000.176

 

However, some people have reported issues with the Taskbar not working on the latest beta version, so if you're on the beta channel, it might be a good idea to hold off on updating until Microsoft addresses it. 

[GoodBytes]

Microsoft has started to kick out users of the Insider Program who don't have the supported hardware. 

You just won't get new build updates, but only cumulative updates.

 

Let me explain:

Windows Insiders has: versions, builds and cumulative update (sub-builds, if you will)

• Red, is the version number (or code)
• Blue is the build number
• Orange is the "sub-build" or as Microsoft calls it: cumulative update.

Typically, the version number/code is defined towards the mid or close to the end of the version release of Windows.

Blue is when you have changes that are mostly on the back (not user facing, however it could have user facing changes)

Cumulative update are mostly patches for bugs, or user facing changes.

 

So, Insiders without a compatible system will no longer get a new version, nor a new build, but still get the cumulative updates.

So, if your system has been moved out of the Insider Program, you'll see this message under the Windows Insider Program panel under the Settings app:

 

If that is the case, you'll notice that you got, like I did, the latest update of Windows 11 despite the above message.

This follows the table posted on the main post of the thread.

 

So, I can't predict the future, but expect minor bug fixes until release, while compatible system will get a new build.

So, despite being rejected, that is why, like me, got an update. But didn't get the new Build.

So, the Dev branch is in line to the Beta branch... but it is a question of time before the Beta channel gets the new build.

 

To clarify:

• If your system has UEFI, TPM support and SecureBoot. You are still in the Insider Program.
• If your system does not have the above, then you are out. You'll get this and any other (if any) cumulative updates for this last build (22000)

[GoodBytes]

For Beta Channel and unsupported hardware:

• "Taskbar Settings" menu item on the Task Bar, now jumps you to the correct settings page in the Settings panel
• Right-click on Bluetooth Quick Setting button, and selecting "Settings" now jumps you to the "Bluetooth & Devices" page under Settings.

That is all. The following bug fixes are mentioned:

Quote

General

• We fixed an issue with paired Bluetooth LE devices that was causing an increase in Bluetooth reliability issues and bugchecks after resume from hibernate or when Bluetooth was turned off.
• We mitigated an issue that was resulting some users hitting in an unexpected error when trying to take pictures with certain USB cameras.
• When setting up Windows Hello in OOBE, we’ve added a new link to learn more about Windows Hello.

Chat from Microsoft Teams

• Arabic and Hebrew languages will now allow changing Teams Settings.
• We fixed the issue where if you were making an outgoing call, there was no ring tone, but the user interface would show that the call is getting connected.

Microsoft Store

• The following issues were fixed in the most recent Store updates:
• We fixed the issue where the install button might not be functional in limited scenarios.
• We also fixed an issue where rating and reviews were not available for some apps.
   

https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2021/09/02/announcing-windows-11-insider-preview-build-22000-176/

 

For those on Dev Channel

• SMB Compression introduced in Windows 11 (and Server 2022) has gotten a behavior change.
  Microsoft explains:

  Quote

  SMB compression allows an administrator, user, or application to request compression of files as they transfer over the network. This removes the need to first deflate a file manually with an application, copy it, then inflate on the destination PC. Compressed files will consume less network bandwidth and take less time to transfer, at the cost of slightly increased CPU usage during transfers.

   

  Based on testing and analysis, we have changed the default behavior of compression. Previously, the SMB compression decision algorithm would attempt to compress the first 524,288,000 bytes (500MiB) of a file during transfer and track that at least 104,857,600 bytes (100MiB) compressed within that 500-MB range. If fewer than 100 MiB were compressible, SMB compression stopped trying to compress the rest of the file. If at least 100 MiB compressed, SMB compression attempted to compress the rest of the file. This meant that very large files with compressible data – for instance, a multi-gigabyte virtual machine disk – were likely to compress but a relatively small file – even a very compressible one – would not compress.

   

  Starting in Build 22449, we will no longer use this decision algorithm by default. Instead, if compression is requested, we will always attempt to compress. If you wish to modify this new behavior to return to a decision algorithm, please see this article: Understanding and controlling compression behaviors.

•  
• The boot screen loading animation has been updated to match the Windows 11 style. No more spinning dots.
• Right-click on Bluetooth Quick Setting button, and selecting "Settings" now jumps you to the "Bluetooth & Devices" page under Settings.
• Windows startup sound will no longer play after an unattended update (meaning the system restarted while you were not in front of it).
• Notifications now have an acrylic background.
• The design of Notification Center app names are now more visibly separated from the notifications.
  
  And this build has a lot of fixes:

  Quote

  Taskbar

  • If your Taskbar is set to auto-hide, hovering over the Taskbar corner or bottom of secondary monitors should now properly invoke the Taskbar.
  • Fixed an issue that could make the calendar flyout get in a state where only the week names would load and not the calendar part.
  • Addressed an issue where the lunar calendar would get out of sync with the actual date in the calendar flyout.
  • If you’ve updated your time format, additional clocks added to the calendar flyout will now update to reflect that.
  • Hovering over one of the Desktops in the Task View flyout should no longer unexpectedly change your active Desktop.
  • The Focus Assist button in Notification Center now has an accessible name for screen readers.
  • Fixed an underlying issue that was causing the font in the Taskbar previews to not be correct.
  • Did some work to help make explorer.exe more reliable when using the Taskbar on multiple monitors.

   

  Input

  • We mitigated an issue that was making the Mail app not able to accept keyboard input into the address / subject lines of a new email sometimes.
  • Also fixed an input related deadlock that was making certain windows not respond to mouse input, including Search, Start, and the emoji panel.
  • If you’re using a tablet or 2-in-1 device in tablet posture, the touch keyboard should now be invoked when tapping Command Prompt to input text without having to tap the touch keyboard button.
  • The N’Ko keyboard name should now display correctly in the input flyout when added to the input list.
  • We did some work to address an animation issue with the shadow when opening the emoji panel or voice typing.
  • Made some performance improvements to help address an issue where the Pinyin IME would take a significant amount of time to start.
  • Addressed an issue where the Pinyin IME would crash and get stuck in a broken state that could result in no longer being able to type anything.
  • We fixed an issue where Japanese IME didn’t lock Kana input mode and reverted it to Romaji input mode after inputting a single character while UAC was disabled or using Windows Sandbox. Thank you everyone who’s shared feedback so far, we really appreciate it.
  • We fixed an issue that when you insert multiple prolong sounds in a row with Japanese IME, the first one and remaining ones were inserted with different character code.
  • We addressed some cases where you wouldn’t see anything when trying to launch the input switcher (Win + Space), including when using Windows Sandbox.
  • We fixed an issue where an angry looking emoji was returned if you searched for “sad” in the emoji panel.
  • Made some tweaks to fix rendering with certain characters when writing vertically, for example writing Japanese vertically with Meiryo UI.
  • Did some work to address an issue that could cause the left mouse click button on precision touchpads to get stuck and stop working.
  • Inputting ALT key codes on the number pad when using the Japanese IME should work now.
  • Addressed an issue that was making Alt-Gr occasionally get ignored when a client RDP window was active.
  • Made a change to help address an issue that could result in characters getting dropped when typing with the Korean IME into certain win32 text boxes.

  
  File Explorer

  • We’ve done some work to help address an underlying issue where moving certain app windows would be very slow if a File Explorer window was also visible on the screen.
  • The command bar should now be properly mirrored in Arabic and Hebrew and fixed some positioning when using the command bar flyouts in those display languages.
  • Mitigated an issue impacting explorer.exe reliability.
  • Fixed a text rendering issue with the apostrophe in the Move Folder dialog.
  • Clicking the “Network discovery is turned off” message in File Explorer will now navigate to a more relevant location instead of just the main page of Network Settings.
  • Fixed an underlying issue that is believed to be the cause of explorer.exe crashing for some people when using the paste button when right-clicking in File Explorer.

  
  Settings

  • Fixed a bug that was causing the battery level displayed for connected Bluetooth devices in Settings to get stuck and appear out of date.
  • The contrast issues in Sound settings should be fixed now when using the Desert contrast theme.
  • Addressed an issue where selecting 5.1 audio type in Sound Settings wasn’t sticking.
  • The sliders in the Sound Settings volume mixer should no longer unexpectedly be different lengths.
  • The Searching Windows link on the Search Permissions page in Settings now works and should no longer crash Settings if the indexer is not running.
  • Made some improvements to help address an underlying issue that could result in display positions and settings being unexpectedly forgotten.
  • Fixed an issue that was causing the profile picture in the top corner of Settings to scale poorly sometimes.
  • The time format in Power & Battery Settings should now follow your preferences.
  • Addressed an issue where clicking the high brightness warning in Powery & Battery Settings wouldn’t lower the brightness.
  • The Video Playback page in Settings should no longer show battery options for devices without batteries.
  • Fixed misspelling of Santali in Language Settings.
  • Fixed misspelling Malaysia (TA-MY) in Language Settings when using the Tamil display language.
  • Did some work to fix an issue where navigating to Lock Screen was crashing Settings sometimes.
  • The “only allow Windows Hello sign-in for Microsoft accounts on this device” setting in Sign-in Settings will now only show for accounts where this option supported.
  • You can now select the text of the update names in Windows Update History again if you would like to copy them out.
  • Addressed an issue that is believed to be the root cause of some people experiencing crashes when clicking on some of the links in the Advanced Options page of Windows Update Settings.
  • Windows Update History should now correctly show the number of updates in each category, instead of showing 0.
  • The BitLocker link in Settings will no longer crash if it’s clicked on devices where it’s not supported.
  • Fixed a few places in Settings where Narrator wasn’t reading items, including making an update so Narrator will now announce success after successfully pairing a device.
  • Options in Personalization Settings that aren’t supported when a contrast theme has been selected will now be disabled.
  • Opening Taskbar Settings in Windows Sandbox will no longer crash Settings.
  • Fixed a hang relating to the input flyout that was causing Quick Settings to hang and not launch.
  • Did some work to address an issue where the edit button in Quick Settings would go missing sometimes.
  • Fixed a deadlock that was resulting in cellular data on/off values not matching between Quick Settings and Cellular Settings page.
  • Quick Settings shouldn’t get clipped anymore when using Magnifier.
  • Addressed an issue that was making the Duplicate option under the Project flyout in Quick Settings not work in some cases.

   

  Logging in and Authentication

  • The icons used in Windows Spotlight text on the lock screen should display properly now and not look like boxes sometimes.
  • The Windows startup sound should no longer play while updates are in progress.
  • Tweaked the buttons of the UAC dialog so the pressed state is more consistent with other buttons.
  • The image in the Windows Hello notification is now visible when using light mode.
  • The “Getting things ready for you” text after an update should now be written in the correct font (Segoe UI Variable).
  • Did some work to help reduce potential banding effects on the “getting things ready” screen after first setting up a device.
  • Addressed an issue where the Number Lock state did not persist during a Fast Start reboot.
  • Fixed an issue that could cause the Lock screen to appear blank with the default lock screen image if lock screen slideshow was enabled combined with “Automatically pick accent color from my background” in Personalization settings.

  
  Bluetooth and Devices

  • We fixed an issue for Insiders with paired Bluetooth LE devices that was causing an increase in Bluetooth reliability issues and bugchecks after resume from hibernate or when Bluetooth was turned off.
  • Fixed a crash with certain connected devices that could result in not being able to use Bluetooth.
  • Mitigated an issue for certain connected devices that was resulting in unexpected beeping, lower than expected maximum volume, occasional Windows Audio service hangs, and volume seemingly getting stuck.
  • Addressed an issue that was making certain scanners not work.
  • Fixed an issue that could cause unexpected brightness changes when adding a monitor, closing then opening a laptop lid, changing resolution or orientation (including autorotation) or a in game setting or a full-screen mode at a different resolution.
  • A new display driver being installed should no longer unexpectedly re-enable disabled devices, including graphics adapters.

  
  Windowing

  • Min/Max buttons in the title bar of certain apps should no longer become distorted after turning off a contrast theme.
  • Fixed an explorer.exe crash that could happen when using ALT + Tab.
  • The keyboard focus in ALT + Tab and Task View should be easier to see now.

  
  Microsoft Store

  • The following issues were fixed in the most recent Store updates:
  • We fixed the issue where the install button might not be functional in limited scenarios.
  • We also fixed an issue where rating and reviews were not available for some apps.

  
  Chat from Microsoft Teams

  • Arabic and Hebrew languages will now allow changing Teams Settings.
  • We fixed the issue where if you were making an outgoing call, there was no ring tone, but the user interface would show that the call is getting connected.

  Other

  • Made a change to help improve Task Manager launch performance in certain scenarios where it was unexpectedly very slow.
  • Addressed an issue that was making certain applications sometimes get the wrong color profile in multi-monitor scenarios.
  • Fixed an underlying crash that was resulting in the recording and screenshot options in the Xbox Game Bar getting unexpectedly disabled.
  • Addressed an underlying app deployment issue believed to be the root cause of Windows Security not launching on a small number of devices.
  • The Windows Boot Loader text should now correctly say Windows 11.
  • Fixed the logo in the Store apps troubleshooter.
  • We did some work on WSL2 to help improve the performance and reliability of localhost relay.
     

If you have enabled Windows Defender Application Guard, then there is a big problem with it with this new build, so you won't get it.

Microsoft is working on a fix.

https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2021/09/02/announcing-windows-11-insider-preview-build-22000-176/

[linkboy]

Microsoft also just sent out a fix for the Taskbar issue on both the Dev and Beta channels.

[Jontario]

@goodbytes have they already pushed out the denial to insider program? If I go to settings, insider program it just says I may experience issues and bugs but doesn't revoke anything or recommend that I install Windows 10 again. I got the update shown above. Does this mean they are still testing my cpu or they just haven't revoked everyone yet? Anyone know?

[GoodBytes]

8 hours ago, Jontario said:

@goodbytes have they already pushed out the denial to insider program?

Yes. See post above: https://linustechtips.com/topic/1350253-windows-11-insider-program-master-thread/?do=findComment&comment=14968729

 

These systems will get security updates and some related to the build cumulative updates, but not move to newer builds

 

Quote

 

If I go to settings, insider program it just says I may experience issues and bugs but doesn't revoke anything or recommend that I install Windows 10 again.

It because you have the security features that Windows 11 is looking for. TPM 2.0 and SecureBoot.

(and more than 32GB of storage requirement... technically speaking)

 

And so, as you don't have the supported CPU, you can continue getting Windows 11 Insider Builds. No idea if you'll be able to get the official release of Windows 11 without any limitations (have all updates, for example), or have to stick to the Insider program to get them.

 

Quote

I got the update shown above. Does this mean they are still testing my cpu or they just haven't revoked everyone yet? Anyone know?

Microsoft has finished it's assessment of CPUs. 

[Jontario]

Alright I'll probably just stay on dual boot for now and see what happens. Thanks. 

[GoodBytes]

2 new releases

 

Let's start with the big one: Build 22454 for those on the Dev channel.

• Right-click menu for the Recycling Bin has now been updated with Fluent Design.
  
   
• Network shares menu under File Explorer now has the option to be pinned to Quick Access on the main menu, and no longer requires to hit "Show more options"
• You can now Shift+Click on an app icon on the Taskbar to open another instance as we used to be able to do in previous version of Windows.

What's Fixed:

Quote

General

• We fixed the issue that was causing PCs with Windows Defender Application Guard (WDAG) enabled to bugcheck continuously. PCs with WDAG enabled should now receive Build 22454.

Start

• Windows Terminal is listed again when right-clicking on the Start button (WIN + X).
• Narrator should announce the Start launch more reliably now.

 

Taskbar

• The Desktops flyout should now dismiss properly for Narrator users when scanning with item navigation across the Task View button.
• Fixed an issue where the preview thumbnails for Desktops were not rendering correctly for certain aspect ratios.
• Fixed a rounding issue that was making the volume icon tooltip show the wrong number in some cases.
• The input indicator, Quick Settings, and notification center icon tooltips will no longer display behind the flyouts when they’re open.
• Addressed an underlying issue that was resulting in the volume icon in the Taskbar displaying sound was muted when that was not the case.
• Fixed an issue that could cause the Taskbar to unexpectedly get stuck on top of full screen applications, such as PowerPoint presentations, after interacting with the Taskbar previews.
• Taskbar icons should no longer flicker when you mouse over them while using a contrast theme.
• Fixed an issue where app icons would occasionally unexpectedly animate onto the Taskbar from somewhere other than from below.
• Did some work to address an issue where app icons could get stuck in an alert state in the Taskbar even if the app in question was closed.

 

Input

• Fixed an issue that was causing the text candidates to not appear after the first time the handwriting panel was invoked.
• Mitigated a stutter in the animation when tapping a text field to invoke the touch keyboard.
• Fixed a bug that was causing clipboard history to not render for some people.
• Displaying 3rd party IME icons in the input indicator should be more reliable now.
• Addressed an explorer.exe crash that could happen when changing window focus while using the touch keyboard.
• Fixed an issue for people who’d opted into the previous version of the Japanese IME that was causing certain games to crash.
• Fixed an issue where the tip for voice typing when using the touch keyboard wouldn’t be connected to the microphone button.
• Addressed an issue where the touch keyboard could get into a state where the key labels would be invisible due to the wrong background color being used.
• Mitigated an issue that was leading to the touch keyboard settings flyout having white on white text sometimes.
• Did some work to address an issue where interacting with the expressive input button in the touch keyboard could result in the candidate area having a broken layout.

 

File Explorer

• Improved the reliability of context menu invocation.
• Mitigated a couple of issues that were causing leaks when using File Explorer.
• The context menu will now not immediately dismiss when the option to open things with a single-click is enabled in File Explorer.
• If you press F11 to full screen File Explorer, then use WIN + Shift + Left/Right to change what screen the window is displaying on, pressing F11 again will no longer jump the window back to the original screen.

 

Settings

• Mitigated an issue when typing with certain 3rd party IMEs into the search box in Settings that could result in the candidate window being rendered elsewhere on-screen (not attached to the search box) and/or characters inserted into the search box not displaying.
• We did some work to help address an issue that was making the Windows Insider Program page in Settings appear blank sometimes.
• The mouse pointers under Accessibility > Mouse pointer and touch are no longer invisible for Arabic and Hebrew display languages.
• System > Storage > Show more categories > Other should no longer always say it’s managed by group policy even when it isn’t.
• Added some links to “Find my device” in Settings to help you learn more about the privacy resources.
• Start time and end time pickers under Focus Assist > During these times are now visible when focus is set while using a contrast theme.
• Addressed a crash that could happen when using Sound Settings.
• Fixed an issue with the volume slider in Quick Settings that was causing the volume to sometimes to save at a slightly different level than what was actually set.

Logging in and Authentication

• Fixed a crash that could happen when the network icon updated states on the login screen.

 

Windowing

• Made a change to address an issue where title bar options including close, minimize and maximize where not appearing as expected in certain apps when moving the mouse to top of the screen while the app was maximized.

 

Other

• Improved icon rendering for certain apps in the Search hover flyout.
• Addressed an issue that was causing overlapping text in the Share window for certain languages.
• Made some performance improvements when switching to the Details tab of Task Manager.
• If the Windows Security app is open when switching to dark mode, the UI elements should respond better now and not have unreadable text.
• If there are a large number of exclusions listed under Virus and Threat Protection in the Windows Security app, it will now display a progress indicator when loading them.
• Fixed some text clipping in the Windows Security app when using the option in Accessibility Settings to increase the text size.
• Mitigated an issue that was causing the WM_CTLCOLORSTATIC message used in certain apps to be ignored, so the colors in some places wouldn’t appear correctly.
• Fixed a leak when the desktop background was set to a slideshow, impacting performance over time until explorer.exe was restarted.
• Mitigated an issue that was causing some PCs to bugcheck while in modern standby.
• Fixed an issue that was causing slower Wi-Fi speeds after enabling Hyper-V and creating an External V-Switch.
• When animations are disabled in the system, there should no longer be a fade animation in UWP apps like Settings or the Feedback Hub when transitioning from the splash screen to the app content.
   

https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2021/09/09/announcing-windows-11-insider-preview-build-22454/

 

 

 

For those under the Beta channel:

Update: 22000.184

 

2 Bug fixes only:

Quote

• Fixed an issue where the new learn more info in OOBE about Windows Hello wasn’t translated for non-English languages.
• Fixed an issue where a small set of languages were missing translations across the UI in Windows 11.

https://blogs.windows.com/windows-insider/2021/09/09/announcing-windows-11-insider-preview-build-22000-184/

 

[Jontario]

@GoodByteslooks like Microsoft lied again, I switched to dev channel and rebooted and I'm downloading the build update right now on the I6-6700k

[GoodBytes]

Just now, Jontario said:

@GoodByteslooks like Microsoft lied again, I switched to dev channel and rebooted and I'm downloading the build update right now on the I6-6700k

I think you are not spending the time to read what I type, or we are just not understanding each other.

 

Your system has:

• SecureBoot
• TPM

So: you get builds. You fall under the yellow column from the table posted previously.

So you are good to go! Enjoy Win11!

 

 

[Jontario]

4 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

I think you are not spending the time to read what I type, or we are just not understanding each other.

 

Yeah I guess so I thought you said I could only get cumulative updates somewhere but can't find it now. My bad. I just saw a windows 11 ready laptop selling with a dual core celeron chip at 1.1ghz base 2.8ghz boost and I was like huh? even at a 50% performance loss my chips is faster.

[LAwLz]

49 minutes ago, Jontario said:

Yeah I guess so I thought you said I could only get cumulative updates somewhere but can't find it now. My bad. I just saw a windows 11 ready laptop selling with a dual core celeron chip at 1.1ghz base 2.8ghz boost and I was like huh? even at a 50% performance loss my chips is faster.

That's because the hardware requirements are arbitrary and doesn't have anything to do with things like performance or security.

[Jontario]

4 hours ago, LAwLz said:

That's because the hardware requirements are arbitrary and doesn't have anything to do with things like performance or security.

Yup, it has more to do with them not wanting to support driver updates for older hardware and selling new hardware instead.

[LAwLz]

17 minutes ago, Jontario said:

Yup, it has more to do with them not wanting to support driver updates for older hardware and selling new hardware instead.

It's not even about driver support, because CPUs do not need drivers.

[GoodBytes]

 

[Forbidden Wafer]

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

*msft snake oil*

 

[Jontario]

On 9/10/2021 at 9:46 AM, LAwLz said:

It's not even about driver support, because CPUs do not need drivers.

CPU and RAM drivers are built into the motherboard firmware. I don't know the full details I'm not an expert on it but with some Ryzen motherboards you have to flash a bios update to get newer cpus to work on the same socket/motherboard. The same thing if you buy RAM that was made after your motherboard was. I'm not sure if there is potential stability or optimization implications on a different operating system then they were written for unless these are updated but I assume there is. Microsoft said something about some systems crashing more on Windows 11. It would obviously cost them money to update these while on the flip side they make money if everyone just buys a new one that's already been supported. I think the older your hardware is the more likely there would be a conflict but I'm no expert on this. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is my understanding. There's also chipset drivers or the motherboard itself that is installed by windows and also for usb/lan chips, etc. I think that Windows 11 isn't that much different then Windows 10 under the hood though so many Windows 10 drivers would work fine, or maybe they could implement a Windows 10 compatibility mode if they wanted to like they had in Windows 10 for Windows 7... 

[Jontario]

On 9/11/2021 at 10:06 PM, GoodBytes said:

 

so on the rational for hardware requirements he admits it's mostly for security, then uses UEFI and 64-bit as examples, both of which are available on Windows 10. Not only that he leaves out that some people wouldn't care at all about this, especially if they weren't using it before and just want to upgrade. For the DCH driver section if you read the article they show right on the video it shows that Windows 10 already supported that, they just want everyone to have this hardware so it's easier for manufacturers to make drivers, they only need to make one driver for all Windows devices if it's a DCH driver. NVIDIA has had them for a while but if you use it you lose the nvidia control panel, which is why most people (with a dedicated GPU for gaming) don't use the Windows driver for their GPU but install the NVIDIA driver to get the NVIDIA control panel and maybe geforce experience as well. As far as the crashing I haven't had a single system crash on windows 11 and I've only ever had them on Windows 10 when I was dialing in my overclocks. I suspect that people experience this are using garbage prebuilt systems from companies like Dell with generic motherboards/ram etc.
Exactly what I've been saying.

[GoodBytes]

3 hours ago, Jontario said:

so on the rational for hardware requirements he admits it's mostly for security, then uses UEFI and 64-bit as examples, both of which are available on Windows 10. Not only that he leaves out that some people wouldn't care at all about this, especially if they weren't using it before and just want to upgrade. For the DCH driver section if you read the article they show right on the video it shows that Windows 10 already supported that, they just want everyone to have this hardware so it's easier for manufacturers to make drivers, they only need to make one driver for all Windows devices if it's a DCH driver. NVIDIA has had them for a while but if you use it you lose the nvidia control panel, which is why most people (with a dedicated GPU for gaming) don't use the Windows driver for their GPU but install the NVIDIA driver to get the NVIDIA control panel and maybe geforce experience as well. As far as the crashing I haven't had a single system crash on windows 11 and I've only ever had them on Windows 10 when I was dialing in my overclocks. I suspect that people experience this are using garbage prebuilt systems from companies like Dell with generic motherboards/ram etc.
Exactly what I've been saying.

The focus of the video is on the performance improvements of the OS.

 

[LAwLz]

6 hours ago, Jontario said:

CPU and RAM drivers are built into the motherboard firmware.

I think you're thinking of microcode. That's not really a driver, and it's not something Microsoft has to think about. It's transparent to the OS.

 

 

6 hours ago, Jontario said:

I'm not sure if there is potential stability or optimization implications on a different operating system then they were written for unless these are updated but I assume there is.

There is not.

 

6 hours ago, Jontario said:

Microsoft said something about some systems crashing more on Windows 11.

You have to be very careful when you read posts from Microsoft. They are often intentionally misleading.

You're probably thinking of this statement:

Quote

Reliability: Devices that do not meet the minimum system requirements had 52% more kernel mode crashes. Devices that do meet the minimum system requirements had a 99.8% crash free experience.

That sounds like a big difference, but it is in reality a very small difference.

 

Devices with the minimum system requirements were 99.8% crash free. That is to say, 0.02% of devices have experienced a crash.

Devices that did not meet the minimum requirements had 52% more crashes. Please note that it is not 52 percentage points. So unsupported systems had 52% more crashes than 0.02%.

 

So it is 0.02 * 1.52 = 0.0304

 

Crashes on systems that meet the minimum requirements = 0.02%

Crashes on systems that do not meet the minimum requirements = ~0.03%

 

Amount of systems that never crashed and had the minimum requirements = 99.8%

Amount of systems that never crashed and did not meet the minimum requirements = ~99.7%

 

 

6 hours ago, Jontario said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but this is my understanding. There's also chipset drivers or the motherboard itself that is installed by windows and also for usb/lan chips, etc.

You're absolutely correct about the chipset drivers. That is a fair point.

However, Microsoft has not imposed any requirements for specific USB chipsets, networking chipsets, audio chipsets etc, so they still need to support all of those. That's not really a big deal for Microsoft however because they are not the ones who write those drivers. 

 

 

I really don't think there are any technical reasons for why Microsoft decided to cut support for certain CPUs. Nothing I have seen or heard so far points to there being a security, performance, stability or feature reason. My guess is that Microsoft just wanted to lose some baggage and essentially threw darts on a dartboard when decided what would be cut and what would be supported. In 2025 when Windows 10 is EoL it won't really matter if they cut support at 7th gen or 8th gen in Microsoft's mind.