LTT and Tesla

[Catt0s]

Hi guys,

 

Whenever LMG is on the topic of Tesla, I feel like there is a negative implication. Like, I understand that Musk isn't a very good person, and that there are some large issues at Tesla, but I don't think that makes them deserve what I am going to call "the facebook treatment." Is there a reason why it seems like they seem biases? It might just be my bias in the opposite direction, but I am trying to look past that. I feel like they talk about issues without actually looking into the whole story. 

For example with the time Tesla recalled the FSD release, I don't think they talked about how the patch was released in just a day, and furthermore they have implemented slower rollouts to prevent it from happening again. And then they talk about how they should just do it all internally, but that defeats the point of the wide release, getting varied data from a wide variety of sources and situations. If they did it all internally, the training data they would get would be severely limited, and dangerous. If you try to drive the way to do in Texas in San Fransisco, well, you are gonna run into problems. And they said they were having the Tesla AI see if you were good enough to let the AI drive. But they are 2 SEPARATE things. One measures your driving ability the same way those insurence things do, but the other actually drives. A good score means that you are good enough to be able to STOP the car from making mistakes, because if you a bad driver, you probably cant react to mistakes fast enough for it. 

And I get that if you like or dislike Tesla's products is a preference, but it might be good to see if others might like it. 

[tikker]

12 hours ago, Catt0s said:

If they did it all internally, the training data they would get would be severely limited, and dangerous. If you try to drive the way to do in Texas in San Fransisco, well, you are gonna run into problems.

You can do a wide, but still internal release to a selective group. That way you can still get large input for potential bugs, but you don't put unknowing groups at risk. Feeding an AI arbitrary data can also have work adversely. An internal release could partially solve this as by nature the training dataset would be much better defined.

 

In general bad news is the interesting news and those things are easier to talk about / criticise than good things.

[Catt0s]

5 hours ago, tikker said:

You can do a wide, but still internal release to a selective group. That way you can still get large input for potential bugs, but you don't put unknowing groups at risk. Feeding an AI arbitrary data can also have work adversely. An internal release could partially solve this as by nature the training dataset would be much better defined.

This is what they do though? that was the first beta release, and the other part was the alpha.

[Catt0s]

15 hours ago, Caroline said:

You shouldn't be subjected to examination and tracked by a private company every time you drive your car and that's the end of it.

I believe you have to opt in to send things back to Tesla. Either that or there is an opt out. 

[tikker]

12 minutes ago, Catt0s said:

This is what they do though? that was the first beta release, and the other part was the alpha.

Then I'm more fine with it. I'm not sure it's the smartest idea to have a beta program (let alone alpha lol) for cars open for random people to join (if that's the case). That should probably be limited to knowledgeable people

[Catt0s]

On 11/13/2021 at 1:11 PM, tikker said:

Then I'm more fine with it. I'm not sure it's the smartest idea to have a beta program (let alone alpha lol) for cars open for random people to join (if that's the case). That should probably be limited to knowledgeable people

thats fair. 

[Sarra]

On 11/13/2021 at 11:00 AM, Catt0s said:

I believe you have to opt in to send things back to Tesla. Either that or there is an opt out. 

Are you sure? Why wouldn't they simply say 'Hey, we aren't tracking you! We promise!' Yet, your car is still going to log every cell tower it connects to, and send that back to Tesla.

 

Also, buying a used car and having the company that made the car remotely disable all advanced features 'just because' is really bullshit. If you buy a car, do you want to have to send a $10,000 check to the OEM to re-enable Autopilot, or whatever? And seriously, do you think it's a good thing to have to pay a monthly fee to use your heated seats? Really?

[Kadzo]

47 minutes ago, Sarra said:

Are you sure? Why wouldn't they simply say 'Hey, we aren't tracking you! We promise!' Yet, your car is still going to log every cell tower it connects to, and send that back to Tesla.

 

Also, buying a used car and having the company that made the car remotely disable all advanced features 'just because' is really bullshit. If you buy a car, do you want to have to send a $10,000 check to the OEM to re-enable Autopilot, or whatever? And seriously, do you think it's a good thing to have to pay a monthly fee to use your heated seats? Really?

Its scary the level of today's fanboy-ism. If somebody did that 10 years ago we would probably already lighting the torches and getting pitchforks ready, but these days people willingly would let company's bend them over backwards with shit like that.

 

And still when somebody says something bad about a company that is doing obliviously shady and bullshit things fanboys come out of the woodwork. 

Have people forgot about constructive criticism?

[Sarra]

15 minutes ago, Kadzo said:

Its scary the level of today's fanboy-ism. If somebody did that 10 years ago we would probably already lighting the torches and getting pitchforks ready, but these days people willingly would let company's bend them over backwards with shit like that.

 

And still when somebody says something bad about a company that is doing obliviously shady and bullshit things fanboys come out of the woodwork. 

Have people forgot about constructive criticism?

The problem with Tesla is the same as with Apple: Other companies are copying their awful concepts, and adopting them industry-wide. BMW has heated seats as a service, and I'm sure the 'Big Three' and other manufacturers will follow suit soon. Kinda hard to light the torches and sharpen the pitch forks when EVERYONE is doing it all at the same time.

 

Which is why I have a 2007 Toyota, and probably won't buy another vehicle that's newer than 2010 after this thing dies.

[HM-2]

1 hour ago, Sarra said:

Are you sure? Why wouldn't they simply say 'Hey, we aren't tracking you! We promise!' Yet, your car is still going to log every cell tower it connects to, and send that back to Tesla.

 

Also, buying a used car and having the company that made the car remotely disable all advanced features 'just because' is really bullshit. If you buy a car, do you want to have to send a $10,000 check to the OEM to re-enable Autopilot, or whatever? And seriously, do you think it's a good thing to have to pay a monthly fee to use your heated seats? Really?

Whilst I entirely agree with the contentions, the issue is that many make out as if that Tesla is the only manufacturer afflicted by these issues when the truth is that almost all do them to a greater or lesser extent.

 

I, like most other modern BMW owners, need to pay an annual subscription to get access to functionality that my car came from the factory with. It would be the same if I had a Mercedes, Audi, Volvo or Jaguar. 

 

Most of the manufacturers do stuff like using cell towers for geolocation of vehicles on a real time basis, and have done for years.

[Kadzo]

5 hours ago, Sarra said:

The problem with Tesla is the same as with Apple: Other companies are copying their awful concepts, and adopting them industry-wide. BMW has heated seats as a service, and I'm sure the 'Big Three' and other manufacturers will follow suit soon. Kinda hard to light the torches and sharpen the pitch forks when EVERYONE is doing it all at the same time.

 

Which is why I have a 2007 Toyota, and probably won't buy another vehicle that's newer than 2010 after this thing dies.

And i get that, we all realise about their scummy methods of getting your money, what i don`t understand is how can you remain a such a fanboy after the company bend you over the table.

How do you become such a dedicated keyboard warrior to defend a company that is in its core scummy capitalistic and some more words that are not too nice for me to write here. 

[Sarra]

3 hours ago, Kadzo said:

And i get that, we all realise about their scummy methods of getting your money, what i don`t understand is how can you remain a such a fanboy after the company bend you over the table.

How do you become such a dedicated keyboard warrior to defend a company that is in its core scummy capitalistic and some more words that are not too nice for me to write here. 

I'm the opposite. I wouldn't ever buy a Tesla. As for why people are, I think it has to do with a mistrust of major manufacturers, which is quite well earned. Toyota, Ford, and GM have all done some REALLY shady stuff in the past with EV's, fought progress tooth and nail, and in general put profit over sense at every turn.

 

8 hours ago, HM-2 said:

Whilst I entirely agree with the contentions, the issue is that many make out as if that Tesla is the only manufacturer afflicted by these issues when the truth is that almost all do them to a greater or lesser extent.

 

I, like most other modern BMW owners, need to pay an annual subscription to get access to functionality that my car came from the factory with. It would be the same if I had a Mercedes, Audi, Volvo or Jaguar. 

 

Most of the manufacturers do stuff like using cell towers for geolocation of vehicles on a real time basis, and have done for years.

Well, as I pointed out, Tesla is the Apple of the automotive world. Tesla happens to be the company that introduced the industry to a vehicle as a service idea, which is why they are so insidious. Ford, GM, etc., never would have even thought about putting cellular connectivity, beyond something like OnStar, for tracking purposes. Apple ruined the mobile industry, and Tesla is doing the same for Automotive.

[Quackers101]

*LTT hiring software guys to add AI to their camera on their cars for homemade tesla, using the power of PC gaming*

[HM-2]

59 minutes ago, Sarra said:

Ford, GM, etc., never would have even thought about putting cellular connectivity, beyond something like OnStar, for tracking purposes. Apple ruined the mobile industry, and Tesla is doing the same for Automotive.

Are you sure about that? US Federal and state law enforcement had access to OnStar data years before Tesla became even a minor player in the market, and that data continues to be recorded outside of the subscription period. It was back in 2013 that GM tried to monetise it by changing the T&Cs to let them sell it to third parties.

As of 2010 Chevrolet Volt customers were asked to opt-in to sending telemetry including geolocation data back to GM and 80% of them did.

EDRs have been fitted to mainstream production cars for, what, nearly two decades now? They also record GPS based location data along with a myriad of other types of information. 

 

Tesla personifies a lot of this stuff, they're the company that took it to 11 by flagrantly using the wealth of data they collect to start petty arguments with motoring journalists who criticised their products. But pretending they were the ones who founded this nonsense is simply not true. 

[Sarra]

8 hours ago, HM-2 said:

Are you sure about that? US Federal and state law enforcement had access to OnStar data years before Tesla became even a minor player in the market, and that data continues to be recorded outside of the subscription period. It was back in 2013 that GM tried to monetise it by changing the T&Cs to let them sell it to third parties.

As of 2010 Chevrolet Volt customers were asked to opt-in to sending telemetry including geolocation data back to GM and 80% of them did.

EDRs have been fitted to mainstream production cars for, what, nearly two decades now? They also record GPS based location data along with a myriad of other types of information. 

 

Tesla personifies a lot of this stuff, they're the company that took it to 11 by flagrantly using the wealth of data they collect to start petty arguments with motoring journalists who criticised their products. But pretending they were the ones who founded this nonsense is simply not true. 

Yeah, OnStar was pretty bad, but at least you could get a vehicle without OnStar. Or remove the module. You cannot with a Tesla.

[Inkz]

21 hours ago, Sarra said:

I'm the opposite. I wouldn't ever buy a Tesla. As for why people are, I think it has to do with a mistrust of major manufacturers, which is quite well earned. Toyota, Ford, and GM have all done some REALLY shady stuff in the past with EV's, fought progress tooth and nail, and in general put profit over sense at every turn.

 

Well, as I pointed out, Tesla is the Apple of the automotive world. Tesla happens to be the company that introduced the industry to a vehicle as a service idea, which is why they are so insidious. Ford, GM, etc., never would have even thought about putting cellular connectivity, beyond something like OnStar, for tracking purposes. Apple ruined the mobile industry, and Tesla is doing the same for Automotive.

Most people don't buy products based off an extensive research of the company's history. TBH I might buy a Tesla some day because I like the technology such as the responsive touch screen, better charging network, and in general better range than all the competition. 

They didn't just happen to be the first, they definitely poured millions into R and D and took many risks. And while I don't think most people like the idea of being tracked, most people would prefer having an internet connection for watching videos and such over the cost of a connection that can be tracked. 

[Sarra]

3 hours ago, Inkz said:

Most people don't buy products based off an extensive research of the company's history. TBH I might buy a Tesla some day because I like the technology such as the responsive touch screen, better charging network, and in general better range than all the competition. 

They didn't just happen to be the first, they definitely poured millions into R and D and took many risks. And while I don't think most people like the idea of being tracked, most people would prefer having an internet connection for watching videos and such over the cost of a connection that can be tracked. 

Yeah, I'm the opposite. I would rather stick with Diesel of Petrol, and having internet or a huge touch screen that's responsive is the last thing I would ever want in my vehicle. I seriously doubt that an EV would ever really cover my preferred use of a vehicle, which is going very, very far out into the woods, or a performance sports car. Yes, EV can make sense for an offroader, but I don't see the technology as being mature enough to be considered reliable. Plus, I can sometimes push 400 miles on a single excursion, and throwing a jerry can in the bed and strapping it down extends my range, and allows for extra safety margin that isn't possible with an EV. I also don't know of an EV with proper ground clearance that's readily available...

 

If I actually wanted an EV, I would buy a vehicle I like, and convert it myself. I understand the expense of such, but that way I can expend money on things like extended range, more torque, AWD, and the like, while not supporting a company that spent a large chunk of it's billion dollar R&D budget on deciding that $10/month for heated seats was a good idea.

[Catt0s]

On 11/18/2021 at 1:23 AM, Sarra said:

Are you sure? Why wouldn't they simply say 'Hey, we aren't tracking you! We promise!' Yet, your car is still going to log every cell tower it connects to, and send that back to Tesla.

 

Also, buying a used car and having the company that made the car remotely disable all advanced features 'just because' is really bullshit. If you buy a car, do you want to have to send a $10,000 check to the OEM to re-enable Autopilot, or whatever? And seriously, do you think it's a good thing to have to pay a monthly fee to use your heated seats? Really?

uh huh, and other cars that have cellular don't have that risk? I believe the only ones you can't opt out of are accident logs

[Sarra]

2 hours ago, Catt0s said:

uh huh, and other cars that have cellular don't have that risk? I believe the only ones you can't opt out of are accident logs

Older vehicles, such as mine, don't have cellular, period. Accident logs would be stored in the antilock brake module, and that data is almost exclusively taken from the wheel speed sensors, or ABS tone wheels.

 

There's a reason... Well more than one, but there's a reason I won't own a vehicle newer than 2010.

[Catt0s]

On 11/19/2021 at 11:57 PM, Sarra said:

Older vehicles, such as mine, don't have cellular, period. Accident logs would be stored in the antilock brake module, and that data is almost exclusively taken from the wheel speed sensors, or ABS tone wheels.

 

There's a reason... Well more than one, but there's a reason I won't own a vehicle newer than 2010.

Cool your car doesn't tell them where you went. That is, unless you bring it to a dealership and they hook it up to their diagnostic systems. Those logs have all kinds of data. 

[Catt0s]

On 11/18/2021 at 1:23 AM, Sarra said:

Are you sure? Why wouldn't they simply say 'Hey, we aren't tracking you! We promise!' Yet, your car is still going to log every cell tower it connects to, and send that back to Tesla.

 

Also, buying a used car and having the company that made the car remotely disable all advanced features 'just because' is really bullshit. If you buy a car, do you want to have to send a $10,000 check to the OEM to re-enable Autopilot, or whatever? And seriously, do you think it's a good thing to have to pay a monthly fee to use your heated seats? Really?

Autopilot is comes with the vehicle now, as far as I know. FSD is obviously more. Tesla isn't the one who makes you pay monthly for heated seats. While I think there may be a subscription option, there are also options to buy any of them forever. As for used vehicles I have no idea, I know there was that incident a while back. In my opinion it should be tied to the Tesla account instead of the vehicle (obviously you can only use the number of licenses you bought at once). 

Also clarification: 

The opting out to sending data back does not apply if you are using FSD beta, that send back VIN-associated data, including from the cabin camera for Neural Network training, and VIN associated so that if you are using it irresponsibly or idiotically they can take it away from you. If you are sending data back normally, it is anonymized (as in not tied to the vehicle or account), and you can opt out altogether. 

[Sarra]

36 minutes ago, Catt0s said:

Cool your car doesn't tell them where you went. That is, unless you bring it to a dealership and they hook it up to their diagnostic systems. Those logs have all kinds of data. 

Do you have a source to prove that?

[Monkey Dust]

19 minutes ago, Catt0s said:

Cool your car doesn't tell them where you went. That is, unless you bring it to a dealership and they hook it up to their diagnostic systems. Those logs have all kinds of data. 

Depends on the car, but a lot of older stuff doesn't know where it's been. It will have all kinds of stuff logged related to min max values recorded by sensors, but that will only hint at whether you have been driving it like you stole it or not. Data storage was expensive in the early 2000's, so cars only had the bare minimum. Plus, GPS equipment was far less common, and often only accessible by the Sat Nav with no connection to any of the car's ECUs.

 

The modern stuff does though https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51466273 And even though the car was torched, Land Rover still had the data about whee the car had been and even what time the boot(trunk) had been opened.

 

 

[Catt0s]

(I started writing this right after my last reply. This is just a rant.)

Also, I want to make some things clear:

Full disclosure: I am a shareholder in Tesla. Why? I like their mission. Do I agree with EVERYTHING they do? No. It is the same as politics: You will probably never have a candidate that you agree with everything on, but you vote for the one you think will handle the most issues you care about the best. The reason I believe in Tesla is because they are leading the revolution. First, making EVs, when everyone else sat down with their money from big oil, taking hits from all of the oil companies tentacles, like the media who runs their ads, big auto, lobbyists, and others. They faced hedge funds shorting their stocks. They survived the financial crisis, if only just barely, like a main character who is close to dying but wins. They are one of the very few US auto companies to survive this long. After making EVs practical, they kept going. They brought the cost down to the point where in some cases it would be cheaper to own then an ICE vehicle. They made them the safest cars ever tested, and continuously give them software updates to make them even better. Then they started working on making cars drive themselves, without even using really expensive hardware. They started working on energy, with solar, powerwall, and powerpack. They have dared to go where no one else has, and have repeatable succeeded, even against all odds. Do I think other companies will do the same thing they do? Yes, I do, maybe even better, but I don't think they would do as well, or maybe not even exist at all, if Tesla hadn't broken the barrier. Honestly, Tesla is lacking competition, and thats not great for the "free market". 

Yes, there are a lot of things Tesla (and Musk) could do better. Their treatment of employees, their battery materials, and a lot more for example. They are not a perfect company, they are a corporation, and they put their interests first. If they can get stuff done for less money, they will do it, even if it isn't very ethical. But I want them to keep breaking the barriers, because eventually, I am hoping that the can fix these. And Musk says and does some dumb things for someone who is so smart. But you gotta admit, the dude had some some amazing things. Instead of bashing companies for the things they do wrong, take a moment and look at the amazing things they have done, and give them credit where it is due. You can hate Tesla, disagree with them, I don't care. You can talk about all of the bad things about Musk and Tesla all you want. But think about what they have done, and tell me that isn't amazing. Think about it like this: we don't really like Google, but if they were never founded, where would the internet be today? The internet is far from perfect, but I think that humans have benefited a lot from it, and I think that if Google hadn't been there, we would be behind. Again, I wouldn't say Elon Musk is a good person, but I would say that he has done good things that others simply couldn't do. He used his money to improve the world, and he made that money back, because he is a business person. I don't think for a minute that he needs all they money, and of course I don't like where the money came from. But if you had that money, would you risk it all to start companies that challenge the way things are? Nobody else had the money to try (well, some did, but obviously they didn't try), but this guy did. I mean, I say stupid things all the time. I have a hard time thinking before I speak, and I think Musk does too. But I see that he has done some incredible things, and I respect that. He just keeps making cool things that will change the world. So while Musk and his companies keep doing things that I don't agree with, I think they are getting more right than a lot of others. Am I a fanboy? I wouldn't call myself one, personally. Am I insufferable and annoying? absolutely. Have Musk and Tesla done bad things? yeah, a lot. But in my own opinion, they have done more good than harm. THAT is why I invested.

[Catt0s]

21 minutes ago, Sarra said:

Do you have a source to prove that?

I would agree with:

24 minutes ago, Monkey Dust said:

Depends on the car, but a lot of older stuff doesn't know where it's been. It will have all kinds of stuff logged related to min max values recorded by sensors, but that will only hint at whether you have been driving it like you stole it or not. Data storage was expensive in the early 2000's, so cars only had the bare minimum. Plus, GPS equipment was far less common, and often only accessible by the Sat Nav with no connection to any of the car's ECUs.

 

I just think that I could see them doing that. I mean, just logging basic IMU data could easily be done on an MCU, and making a tool to make that data into places you went wouldn't be that hard to large companies.