Report suggests many Gen Z students do not know how to use a basic file directory

[aom]

10 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

No, I don't feel superior, I'm actually disappointed that people insist that knowing how to use a file directory means someone is old. And i'm concerned the Gen-Z crowd that never touched a desktop PC is going to influence companies like Microsoft into getting rid of file and folder directories entirely for search term queries which is a huge step backwards for usability and ease of use in the UI.

No I am not insisting that people who know how to use a file directory means someone is old. I am disappointed in people who conflate not being able to use a file directory with not knowing how because they haven't needed to use one yet. File directories aren't going away anytime soon if ever and even if it did, it will be for the better (or else they'll just revert back).

[aramini]

3 minutes ago, Brinith said:

Is it really considered spoonfed to get some help on something you've never need to use before?

 

Before you get to a 4 year university means at most 8 years (to really have the autonomy to self learn). Between school, figuring out themselves as people, hobbies (aside from interests in field of study like sports, music, etc.), social life and responsibilities, I don't blame them for spending that much time on self learning. Sure I was able to back then and it certainly did help me in being sure on what I wanted to do going into college, but its not like I didn't lose anything from doing so.

 

I agree that most people don't want to dig deep, but I am sure there are other aspects of life that they do spend the time and effort on.

 

In regards to education in the US, when I was in highschool doing calculus, there were others struggling with basic algebra that they should have learned in middle school. It wasn't that they couldn't have learned, they just didn't pay attention / care. It's really unfortunate. There is a failure in education in the US, but I don't believe it is the curriculum or method that's the problem. A bigger issue I see is that for those who are behind or didn't pay attention for a while, its really hard to catch up. There's no school resources or even encouragement to ask for more help if they are struggling so it just piles on and on until they just give up completely.

 

It is only absurd because given your experience and interests, it is only natural that you've come across the need to learn it early on. It wasn't until I started my CS program that I learned about Vim or being as comfortable in a terminal as I am now. Some peers looked at me like I was dumb back then and I turned out just fine.

 

 

I think you're missing my whole point, and making assumptions. I had a part time job since I was 16. Saved up and built my 1st PC on my own, using only the internet and manual as a resource. Learning on one's own can be done. One has to be diligent, not lazy.

 

There are always going to be varying levels of knowledge/exposure when first starting out. But if a professor has to hold the hand of everyone who doesn't understand (what I would think would be prerequisites to a major class), that's sign of a bigger problem.

 

I don't understand why anyone genuinely interested in CS or IT would have always just used an iPhone or whatever and never even got some old hardware on the cheap to play with and learn. To me that shows their motivation may not be out of pure interest in the field.

 

But then again I was raised in the shadow of a big brother who did math problems in HS just for fun, got a perfect score in math on the SAT, went to Berkeley with a double major in Math and Theoretical Physics. So maybe I benefitted from years of discussions with him about such things.

[aramini]

Spoonfed is not exploring other resources outside of class (like, say, the Internet) which we didn't have when I was in High School, so I think it's a hard sell to blame the professor or lack of exposure. People have more access to information than ever before in the history of humanity. You can get cheap refurbished systems on Amazon and eBay, or even go to a thrift store and try to get some old junk working and see if you can install an older linux distro on it. One would learn lots. Though I wouldn't connect it to the internet as a main system for lack of security patches, etc. Do they even know this is possible? Has it ever crossed their mind?

 

Maybe it's just me and my temperament/personality, maybe I'm on the spectrum, but whenever I get into something, I go balls deep and spend hours reading about it online, setting up test rigs, experimenting, etc. Why can't a first year student do the same?

 

Spoonfed is taking no initiative and relying on the professor. When you work for a company, these days, a lot of them don't provide adequate training, if any. You have to learn how to learn on your own, which is what a big part of a university education is all about. Does education end on graduation day? It shouldn't, especially not in the STEM majors. I'd hate to have a heart or brain surgeon who never completed any CE credits (continuing education) although they couldn't renew their license if they did not.

[aom]

19 minutes ago, aramini said:

I think you're missing my whole point, and making assumptions. I had a part time job since I was 16. Saved up and built my 1st PC on my own, using only the internet and manual as a resource. Learning on one's own can be done. One has to be diligent, not lazy.

 

There are always going to be varying levels of knowledge/exposure when first starting out. But if a professor has to hold the hand of everyone who doesn't understand (what I would think would be prerequisites to a major class), that's sign of a bigger problem.

 

I don't understand why anyone genuinely interested in CS or IT would have always just used an iPhone or whatever and never even got some old hardware on the cheap to play with and learn. To me that shows their motivation may not be out of pure interest in the field.

 

But then again I was raised in the shadow of a big brother who did math problems in HS just for fun, got a perfect score in math on the SAT, went to Berkeley with a double major in Math and Theoretical Physics. So maybe I benefitted from years of discussions with him about such things.

I agree if it is in a major class not geared toward first year students. I'll describe my experience in a first year course. The professor goes over basic Linux commands for about 20-30 min during a lecture. From that lecture on, we are expected to know it. If you are struggling with it for a bit, then ask for help from the TA. It didn't take long for everyone to be on the same page for linux commands. I don't think you can really consider that hand holding.

 

In all future courses, we are expected to be able to do use them. For ppl who transferred or are master students, they would learn by themselves to catch up (whether it be Linux, a new programming language, etc.) quick and ask TAs for help if need be. Routinely, I would have to learn new languages for a course in the beginning weeks on my own (maybe some help from a TA who would run a small crash course for us outside of class time).

 

Most people probably don't go into CS or IT completely certain of their passion and that's fine. A lot of people develop that passion throughout the years after learning more and more about it along with the struggles (though all the late nights struggling to come up with proofs certainly didn't help my passion for CS). A lot of people I know who excel at CS came in without any programming experience, but were really strong in math. Now they are doing ML research, etc. etc.

 

Even if they aren't passionate about CS, I nor employers care about their passion if they are competent and can do the work which most will be at the end of the program.

[aramini]

3 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

No, I don't feel superior, I'm actually disappointed that people insist that knowing how to use a file directory means someone is old. And i'm concerned the Gen-Z crowd that never touched a desktop PC is going to influence companies like Microsoft into getting rid of file and folder directories entirely for search term queries which is a huge step backwards for usability and ease of use in the UI.

They said the same thing about the pile of garbage that was Windows 8.

Microsoft fanbois telling us "grumpy old curmudgeons" to get over it and move on...technology advances.

 

Yet other than M$ moving things around, making a disjointed mess out of settings and control panel (redundancy and confusion anyone?)

 

It basically worked the same way under the hood, just had a lot of "updated" flat UI eye-candy that got in the way and actually made it harder for people who knew what they wanted to do or knew what they were doing but had to dig to find where M$ decided to bury some menu.

 

That's progress? No, a great new technology that makes things way better, more efficient, lest costly, etc is progress.

 

I suppose if one doesn't understand the concepts and just knows how to point and click, then anything new is progress.

 

I didn't really fully understand a lot about computers or how they work until I got into Unix/Linux and then a lot of concepts started making way more sense to me. Wait, linux still uses CLI terminals for some things? Never mind you old crusty curmudgeon, we want progress!

 

If progress means being brain dead, no thanks, I'll stay old and grumpy.

[ZacoAttaco]

7 hours ago, GDRRiley said:

its because school still doesn't teach the computer basics when kids are younger, chromebooks save money but mean kids never learn how to navigate to find files.

if its the first programing class it makes sense you'd want to go over that

This was the surprising thing for me when reading this article. Whilst I was using a PC well before we had our first IT classes in primary school, those classes still taught me a lot of the fundamental computing principles at a young age and skills that would serve me well into the future.

 

Is it too outlandish for modern classes to teach junior students some of the basics of how to use a computer? I think the pros outweigh the cons here.

[CommanderAlex]

8 hours ago, Clarkius said:

This isn't really just limited to navigating file explorer either, I'm noticing a lot of younger people I interact with (even those closer to my own age in college) struggle with navigating websites to find download links etc 

I can totally relate to this as well as I've seen other students have a hard time finding links like, "Where is the download link?" or, "How did you get there so quickly?". Myself, being a part of Gen Z, don't understand how difficult it is for others to follow along or to try and learn. I partly blame social media and wanting attention being the biggest problems my generation face. 

 

7 hours ago, GDRRiley said:

I know its fun and all to make jokes at gen Z. I hate the younger part of my gen, hi smartphone babies.

its because school still doesn't teach the computer basics when kids are younger, chromebooks save money but mean kids never learn how to navigate to find files.

if its the first programing class it makes sense you'd want to go over that

Back in elementary school, we would use Dell PCs for basically everything and were introduced to the PC, keyboard, and mouse etc. Just to get a standing ground on where to start using a computer. Then came middle school and high school where Chromebooks were the main go-to and heavily relied on Google Classroom for assignments. Basically went from Microsoft Word to Google Docs/Google Drive in middle school, most likely for budgetary reasons. 

[aramini]

9 minutes ago, CommanderAlex said:

Myself, being a part of Gen Z, don't understand how difficult it is for others to follow along or to try and learn. I partly blame social media and wanting attention being the biggest problems my generation face. 

For me (I'm 46yrs old) it isn't about putting down younger generation or feeling like I am above them. But I do see a trend in the population in general of people lacking the ability to reason, think logically, figure things out on their own or even with help. People seem to just want the answer without any deeper explanation, understanding.

 

I too blame it in part on social media, reality TV like Kardashians (when I was in my 20/30s we had Paris Hiltons and Kardashians), and pop culture where going viral is more celebrated than actually knowing anything about a subject.

 

I am genuinely concerned and wish there was a better way to capture their interest than TikTok, Twitter, etc.

 

But there will always be those who are highly self-motivated and do well, and those who just coast and get weeded out (and those in between,  who end up being your mediocre co-worker or jerk-a$$ boss, half-joking of course) i

[CommanderAlex]

7 minutes ago, aramini said:

For me (I'm 46yrs old) it isn't about putting down younger generation or feeling like I am above them.

 

I am genuinely concerned and wish there was a better way to capture their interest than TikTok, Twitter, etc.

 

But there will always be those who are highly self-motivated and do well, and those who just coast and get weeded out (and those in between,  who end up being your mediocre co-worker or jerk-a$$ boss, half-joking of course) i

Unfortunately, that is how Big Tech companies target younger audiences with these social media platforms. Nearly everyone has a smartphone and they (Big Tech) can make any app they want to push towards them. I, myself, only have one social media account (unless you count Discord as one, then two total). I was never really interested in social media and wanting to hop on the band wagon as my peers to Instagram/Snapchat/TikTok etc. and always thought there was more to life and to learn in general. 

[orbitalbuzzsaw]

9 minutes ago, CommanderAlex said:

Unfortunately, that is how Big Tech companies target younger audiences with these social media platforms. Nearly everyone has a smartphone and they (Big Tech) can make any app they want to push towards them. I, myself, only have one social media account (unless you count Discord as one, then two total). I was never really interested in social media and wanting to hop on the band wagon as my peers to Instagram/Snapchat/TikTok etc. and always thought there was more to life and to learn in general. 

Yeah, pretty much

[ouroesa]

I've never understood how people have no issues not knowing how a thing works that they use everyday - dos this not bother people? Obviously I am an outlier. 

I always thought the newer generations will be more comfortable with basic computer use. How does one get to university without using a computer? The mind boggles.

[StDragon]

2 hours ago, aom said:

There is a failure in education in the US, but I don't believe it is the curriculum or method that's the problem. A bigger issue I see is that for those who are behind or didn't pay attention for a while, its really hard to catch up.

You don't understand because you're probably not American, or have been in America that long.

Here, let me tell you the cold hard factual reality of it - The problem isn't the curriculum. The problem is cultural; it's the lack of parental oversite of their own children. You know, being involved with the progress of their education (subject matter, teachers, grades, etc). Also being involved in what their children do online and the type of friends they associate with (smoke dope, drink, or maybe they volunteer with the local community??).

When parents act like children themselves, what the hell do you think the outcome of their children is going to be like?

While I'm giving you a rather extreme example that borderlines on hyperbole, I'm also not too far of the mark either. I'm an American, trust me, I know.

 

#feeling savage

[AldiPrayogi]

Eh kinda see why.

 

I am fresh graduate and always have used Windows. Started working not too long ago and used Mac Mini at work. Struggled to traverse through directories at first since I never used the damn OS lol. And the shortcuts are annoying too.

[GDRRiley]

2 hours ago, ZacoAttaco said:

This was the surprising thing for me when reading this article. Whilst I was using a PC well before we had our first IT classes in primary school, those classes still taught me a lot of the fundamental computing principles at a young age and skills that would serve me well into the future.

 

Is it too outlandish for modern classes to teach junior students some of the basics of how to use a computer? I think the pros outweigh the cons here.

my school cared way more about typing than how to use a computer, be dammed if you knew how to use it, open word and type fast

[Spindel]

2 hours ago, ouroesa said:

I've never understood how people have no issues not knowing how a thing works that they use everyday - dos this not bother people? Obviously I am an outlier. 

I always thought the newer generations will be more comfortable with basic computer use. How does one get to university without using a computer? The mind boggles.

Welcome to the real world in an office where the average office workers profficiency with a computer can be likend to a carpenter that thinks that the only way to drive nails into wood is by hitting them with an electric screwdriver. Sure it gets the job done but isn’t really how you should use the tool. 

[ouroesa]

7 minutes ago, Spindel said:

Welcome to the real world in an office where the average office workers profficiency with a computer can be likend to a carpenter that thinks that the only way to drive nails into wood is by hitting them with an electric screwdriver. Sure it gets the job done but isn’t really how you should use the tool. 

Well said.

I struggle with this everyday in the office. Most of my colleagues have masters degrees and yet do not know how to even use the basics of the software which are a requirement in this field ( MS Project, AutoCAD Civil etc) and are barely proficient with the Office suite. 

[PessimalManiac]

After having thought about this article for a bit, I also think that a little bit of the message the professors probably wanted to portray has been lost in the article itself. Discussion like this generally happen within the educator community and officially too. Sometimes there are even exchanges like this between industries and higher education institutions, but not sure in the case of US as I'm not from there. 

 

I'm certain, most if not all of these professors, meant their comments as a feedback to the lower levels. This is necessary conversation and in the past this would have happened in conferences and forums dedicated for the same and the rest of the world would be none the wiser. But for better or for worse, it ends up in public domain in today's world. This is the conversation necessary to start the discussion on whether to say add an elective for high schoolers to take in-order to fill in some gaps in their knowledge. Large companies certainly communicate with top universities to give feedback on where students of a time period are strong and where they are weak. Then we collectively get to decide on whether the University should take care of the knowledge gap or the companies should.

 

If I get poorly written code moving up the chain, I would certainly bring it up during a meeting and I will most definitely say that the code coming out from the dev team should improve. Post that initial comment, I would also see what the knowledge gap is and address it appropriately. If it is something that can be taken care of during the onboarding of the engineer, I'll float that as an idea too. If that makes me an elitist idiot, so be it. But that is what stakeholders should do. 

 

As for education, it is not really as black and white as "it's the student's problems" or "it's the system or the professor who should take care of it". I went through University in the early 2010s and by the end of 4th year, I had classmates who couldn't use a terminal window or execute basic UNIX commands. This is a CS course, so there certainly is something wrong there. These are 'Computer Science Engineers" and most of my classmates do not work in IT at all. 

 

I am a senior dev and routinely interview and mentor developers and I see a lot of issues in terms of knowledge gaps and some of it genuinely my job to fix. But I also see schools here introduce programming into the school curriculum. But as an industry stakeholder I would rather them teach students how to use a computer. I distinctly remember having to learn how to use MS Word and then they would make me answer questions like "List the steps needed to open a word document and save it in the Documents folder". That is teaching me how to use an application, not how to use a Computer. 

 

Related to this, my mother called me today to talk about some family stuff and she said she is unable to share a link with me over WhatsApp because her phone's camera broke and she can't use the desktop WhatsApp clients. I told her I'm getting her a new phone, but that she didn't need WhatsApp desktop client to send me the link. She was reluctant and defensive at first, but I managed to convince her that I probably know what I'm talking about. I told her to open the link on her phone while I was on speakerphone and then told her the following: 

 

Quote

Me: Do you see the three dots next to the address bar? That is called the overflow menu and it is where all the additional functions go on a mobile browser. 

 

Her: Yeah, should I tap that? 

 

Me: Yes, and then you will she an option called share. Could you tap on that?

 

Her: Yes and yeah WhatsApp is one of the options, this make sense. 

 

Me: Unlike the Desktop OSes that you grew up with, mobile OSes treat applications as sandboxes and they use the share sheet to share information between them. You could also copy paste if you want to, but this probably going to be faster for you.

I had to have this conversation because my mother grew up on Desktop class OSes and is not native to the smartphone way of things. It is a different UX pattern. But had she not known what an address bar is, I'd have had to ask her which phone she uses (I honestly don't know which one she uses), then use Google to figure out whether the address bar is on the top or the bottom and you know the rest. Just the way my mother knowing what an address bar is helped me solve her problem, knowing a tree like file structure can help the professor teach the kids quicker and more efficiently. 

[LAwLz]

Called it. The thread devolved into "wow, I can't believe someone else doesn't know this thing I know. They are so dumb". 

 

I wonder how many of you people are Windows kiddies that doesn't know much about computers in general. Doesn't know programming, doesn't know how a scheduler works, doesn't know how a processor works (and no "it calculates stuff and MHz measures how fast" is not knowing how it works) doesn't know even basic *nix commands. 

 

Hell, most of you probably don't even know how routing and switching works. You post on this forum yet you don't understand how your computer sends information over the internet? Cringe!

 

 

3 hours ago, ouroesa said:

I've never understood how people have no issues not knowing how a thing works that they use everyday - dos this not bother people? Obviously I am an outlier. 

I always thought the newer generations will be more comfortable with basic computer use. How does one get to university without using a computer? The mind boggles.

Do you know programming, so that you know how your computers work?

Do you know routing and switching, so you know how your routers and switches work?

Do you know how compressors work, so you know how your fridge works?

Do you know about the chemical concepts happening when cooking and eating food? How yeast works, how the maillard reaction happens, how the body converts the things we eat into the things we need to survive?

Do you know cars work? I don't mean "they burn fuel to move forward" but the intricate details about things such as how power steering functions (not just "it makes it easier to turn the wheel" but how it achieves that effect)?

 

 

The fact of the matter is that most things we come into contact are very complicated. You really do need to be very well researched into even tiny things to understand how they work. A lot of people don't realize how complicated even things that seem trivial actually are.

 

I really like the analogy that knowledge is like a balloon. The more air you put into the balloon, the more you inflate it, the more "unknown knowledge" (air outside the balloon) you come into contact with. Basically, the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know everything.

 

The people who think they know everything are those that have very little air in their balloons to begin with. There is a phenomenon about this called the Dunning–Kruger effect.

[RejZoR]

21 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Called it. The thread devolved into "wow, I can't believe someone else doesn't know this thing I know. They are so dumb". 

 

I wonder how many of you people are Windows kiddies that doesn't know much about computers in general. Doesn't know programming, doesn't know how a scheduler works, doesn't know how a processor works (and no "it calculates stuff and MHz measures how fast" is not knowing how it works) doesn't know even basic *nix commands. 

 

Hell, most of you probably don't even know how routing and switching works. You post on this forum yet you don't understand how your computer sends information over the internet? Cringe!

Though in all honesty, dealing with folders is the most fundamental thing with ANY computers. Desktop computers have them (and here I include ALL consumer operating systems, be it Windows, Linux or MacOS, stretching from some 30 years in the past, smartphones have them, tablets have them...). Not understanding concept of folder within a folder makes you pretty dumb. It's called deductive skill and basic extrapolation of information you see in your life. Working with folder structure in command line was rough, but with GUI it's like stacking freaking boxes. Imagine these kids being unable to use device because box has a box inside and they have no idea what to do with it and that box has a charger and extra accessories in there. It's kinda laughable.

[LAwLz]

2 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Though in all honesty, dealing with folders is the most fundamental thing with ANY computers. Desktop computers have them (and here I include ALL consumer operating systems, be it Windows, Linux or MacOS, stretching from some 30 years in the past, smartphones have them, tablets have them...). Not understanding concept of folder within a folder makes you pretty dumb. It's called deductive skill and basic extrapolation of information you see in your life. Working with folder structure in command line was rough, but with GUI it's like stacking freaking boxes. Imagine these kids being unable to use device because box has a box inside and they have no idea what to do with it and that box has a charger and extra accessories in there. It's kinda laughable.

Programming skills used to be the most fundamental thing with any computer as well. Clearly it is not anymore since a lot of people grow up not knowing BASIC.

 

Also, you might want to read some of the links from the source. It was navigating the folder structure in GNU/Linux using the CLI that people struggled with. 

[Spindel]

4 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Though in all honesty, dealing with folders is the most fundamental thing with ANY computers. Desktop computers have them (and here I include ALL consumer operating systems, be it Windows, Linux or MacOS, stretching from some 30 years in the past, smartphones have them, tablets have them...). Not understanding concept of folder within a folder makes you pretty dumb. It's called deductive skill and basic extrapolation of information you see in your life. Working with folder structure in command line was rough, but with GUI it's like stacking freaking boxes. Imagine these kids being unable to use device because box has a box inside and they have no idea what to do with it and that box has a charger and extra accessories in there. It's kinda laughable.

You say that only because you know nothing else, or let me rephrase it; you say that because that is what you where taught.

 

When I started as a kid (yes I'm on the older side the bell curve if you look at the demographic in a forum like this) there was no file system on computers. 

I learned that the numbers in front of every game on the 90 min cassette was the counter value on the tape deck to where I had to FF to load that particular software (in most cases pirated games  ). A bit further on the "file system" was to know what floppy to choose from the stack or box and hopefully they where labeled sufficiently etc.

 

As I said in my first and second posts in this thread the idea of getting rid of a "folder" structure has been around and implemented in some forms for about 20 years by now.

 

And guess what a lot of the same people that complain about "the kids today" in this very thread are the same people that refuse to see there is another, and in a lot of cases, better way to handle and sort files than an archaic paper file cabinet analogue. It is just resistance to change.   

[LAwLz]

3 minutes ago, Spindel said:

And guess what a lot of the same people that complain about "the kids today" in this very thread are the same people that refuse to see there is another, and in a lot of cases, better way to handle and sort files than an archaic paper file cabinet analogue. It is just resistance to change.   

I think for most users, using tags and search is probably better than a hierarchical folder structure, but I think for programs and OSes, folders are still better. 

[RejZoR]

2 minutes ago, Spindel said:

You say that only because you know nothing else, or let me rephrase it; you say that because that is what you where taught.

 

When I started as a kid (yes I'm on the older side the bell curve if you look at the demographic in a forum like this) there was no file system on computers. 

I learned that the numbers in front of every game on the 90 min cassette was the counter value on the tape deck to where I had to FF to load that particular software (in most cases pirated games  ). A bit further on the "file system" was to know what floppy to choose from the stack or box and hopefully they where labeled sufficiently etc.

 

As I said in my first and second posts in this thread the idea of getting rid of a "folder" structure has been around and implemented in some forms for about 20 years by now.

 

And guess what a lot of the same people that complain about "the kids today" in this very thread are the same people that refuse to see there is another, and in a lot of cases, better way to handle and sort files than an archaic paper file cabinet analogue. It is just resistance to change.   

It's literally boxes within a box thing. How detached are you from reality if you can't grasp that and apply it to a virtual thing?

 

@LAwLz

commandline display of folders was dumb when I was using DOS and it's dumb today when using CLI in Windows or Linux. Typing "dir" million times to display folder structure after entering each folder to get a more visual representation was nothing uncommon. But that's just because CLI only shows you one line at a time.

[Blademaster91]

There is good change, then change just because people either don't want to or didn't care to learn. According to the Verge article, university level students don't know how to navigate a linux based file system, which should be basic knowledge for anyone getting into the tech field, and a professor shouldn't have to teach students basic stuff.

Getting rid of a file system for a search based system is like having files nicely organized in a filing cabinet as opposed to throwing everything on the floor and trying to find what you need.

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

It's literally boxes within a box thing. How detached are you from reality if you can't grasp that and apply it to a virtual thing?

 

@LAwLz

commandline display of folders was dumb when I was using DOS and it's dumb today when using CLI in Windows or Linux. Typing "dir" million times to display folder structure after entering each folder to get a more visual representation was nothing uncommon. But that's just because CLI only shows you one line at a time.

What CLI were you using, dr dos, MS dos and GNU linux all have tree commands to view entire dir structure.