Report suggests many Gen Z students do not know how to use a basic file directory

[Fasterthannothing]

Man this kinda blows my mind. I mean if you can't figure out the basic file directory why are you in STEM? The professors job shouldn't include a 2hr lesson on folder structure. I mean what's next a how to turn on a desktop lecture because people only use mobile devices? I'd love to see these students try and navigate through folders in the terminal window

[Spindel]

4 minutes ago, SlidewaysZ said:

Man this kinda blows my mind. I mean if you can't figure out the basic file directory why are you in STEM? The professors job shouldn't include a 2hr lesson on folder structure. I mean what's next a how to turn on a desktop lecture because people only use mobile devices? I'd love to see these students try and navigate through folders in the terminal window

I would say most people can't use CLI at all, even on this forum. 

[crakddx]

As a young gen z, I find this quite amusing.A couple of days ago we were doing excel, and whilst I finished the task in -15 minutes, everyone else took at least 30. Also, I do not watch porn! Stop stereotyping :c
I am a furry tho.... uwu :3

[WolframaticAlpha]

6 hours ago, ZacoAttaco said:

Summary

In this recent article from The Verge, (yes, I know the infamous "Verge"), Monica Chin describes a changing climate for professors and teachers as many technological concepts deemed common knowledge for previous generations of students is found to no longer be the case

 

She interviews several professors and lecturers who detail their experience of asking students to retrieve files from certain folders from their PC with a response of blank stares and puzzled expressions from their pupils. 

 

Quotes

It seems this is not exclusive to psychology and physics students:

One lecturer's courses even "include a full two-hour lecture to explain directory structure. He likens finding files to giving driving directions. He shows maps of directory trees and asks his students to pretend they’re guiding others to a highlighted point. He uses every analogy he can think of."

 

My thoughts

Now obviously, this should all be taken with a grain of salt. Gen Z can be categorised as anyone born from mid-to-late 1990s to the early 2010s and not every one of that sample size has trouble using file directory. But I do think it is a sign of changing times. Big tech companies are prioritising usability over all else, we notice this trend over the years, this generation spends most of their screen time on their smartphone and are therfore not exposed to the file directory system we are all accustom to. With Windows too, we see the inclusion of the Windows 10 Settings app over previously used Control Panel and the way programs like Steam and Epic handle the organisation of game installations by refering to an unassuming background folders as well as the wider tech sectors continous push towards simpler, sleeker design. Like everything in the industry however, people will adapt, whether that means companies refocus their design to suit a new generation of users and their unique limitations or training instutions changing their curriculum and methodologies accordingly.

 

Honestly though, to me, these companies efforts to make things simpler and easier robs some of the joy of computing in my opinion. Everything has become so uniform and sterile. To me, the personality of the industry has moved aside to make room for clean cut colour palettes and minimalist design.

 

What are you thoughts?

Thanks,

Zac.

 

EDIT: Sorry, it's been a while since I've posted on the forum so hopefully everything is up to snuff!

Sources

https://www.theverge.com/22684730/students-file-folder-directory-structure-education-gen-z

https://cseducators.stackexchange.com/questions/3535/introducing-file-systems-to-students-who-really-dont-understand?noredirect=1&lq=1

 

it turns out that it was the cloud and not the videogames that were corrupting the mind of the youth/s

[PessimalManiac]

51 minutes ago, Spindel said:

The following that I will write is not to argue that you are wrong, take it more as an discussion. 

No at all going to take this as an argument. One thing you learn as a developer/engineer is to agree and disagree is a very respectable manner and conduct yourself well in a discussion (at least I like to think I do ).

 

And I completely agree with you when it comes to my general compute requirements. I use a MacBook for my everyday computing and takes great pride in being able to find basically everything using Spotlight without going folder hurting into my "Development" folder. I use Photos to keep my images and videos well organised and even went so far as to transcode all my old videos to HEVC recently so that I could upload them to my iCloud account without taking too much space.

 

57 minutes ago, Spindel said:

In your example above is the saving process that much different than when saving into a classical folder structure?

What I'm getting at is that in a folder structure you need to decide where the file needs to be (that contains some information about the file like if it comes from i e Shopify) and you need to decide what the file should be called in example what time period your file covers and to some extent what file type it is (if you are in windows, Linux and MacOS don't seem to give a fuck if you remove the file extension).

As long as the file includes these metadata from the get go, things are fine. But that is not likely to happen because a CSV is just a really simple file format to being with. The metadata in a photo is mostly collected automatically and hence doesn't get in the way, same with the songs where the metadata is part of the file since it's creation (for the sake of our current discussion). But if I have to type in the metadata like date range post download, it is faster for me to drag'n'drop to the desired folder. You would not love it if you had to manually type the metadata into every photo you clicked. 

 

Coming to the command line arguments, I would be doing exactly that to fetch data from an API i.e give command line arguments (metadata) that the script will pass on to the API to get exactly what I need. But I personally wouldn't even put the file in another directory, I'd just use a relative path like "~/Downloads/xyz.csv" and pass that path to the script. We programmers also like being explicit about our instructions to computers when possible because we also know how silly these things can behave when we assume they understand us.

 

Situations where hierarchy makes a lot of sense for me, beyond the file cabinet logic, are my software projects. Third party packages I install into my virtualenv are abstracted away from me, but I also need to understand how to make my own python "packages" which is just a directory with a specific file in it. Again, even though that would be solvable via some abstraction and metadata, we aren't there yet and a non explicit call to files will just bring so much vagueness to the whole equation from a developer's perspective. 

 

I personally do see the merit in a "query based" FS (I don't even know if others would call it that), but the way may things work in fields like programming, it could end up making me swim against the current. A good example of this is how a framework like Django or NestJS will give you an abstraction you can use to build some amazing stuff, but the experts will still tell you that intimate understanding of their inner workings is what allows some of us to do things other can't. So just like how a Linux kernel dev will always know more about the FS than mere web/app developers like me would, some fields will always need some higher degree of understanding. 

 

With that being said, I am not going to micro manage my images, videos, music or my text documents. I have really robust apps for the first three and just use macOS tags and sensible names to manage the last one. I'd still want to know my Downloads folder is something I can quickly "cmd/ctrl + A" and delete. 

 

 

[Fasterthannothing]

13 minutes ago, Spindel said:

I would say most people can't use CLI at all, even on this forum. 

Sad how will they ever convince people their a real hacker hacking the mainframe if they can't open command prompt and run tracert on google.com or ipconfig /all or ifconfig for my Linux peeps

[Spindel]

7 minutes ago, PessimalManiac said:

No at all going to take this as an argument. One thing you learn as a developer/engineer is to agree and disagree is a very respectable manner and conduct yourself well in a discussion (at least I like to think I do ).

 

And I completely agree with you when it comes to my general compute requirements. I use a MacBook for my everyday computing and takes great pride in being able to find basically everything using Spotlight without going folder hurting into my "Development" folder. I use Photos to keep my images and videos well organised and even went so far as to transcode all my old videos to HEVC recently so that I could upload them to my iCloud account without taking too much space.

 

As long as the file includes these metadata from the get go, things are fine. But that is not likely to happen because a CSV is just a really simple file format to being with. The metadata in a photo is mostly collected automatically and hence doesn't get in the way, same with the songs where the metadata is part of the file since it's creation (for the sake of our current discussion). But if I have to type in the metadata like date range post download, it is faster for me to drag'n'drop to the desired folder. You would not love it if you had to manually type the metadata into every photo you clicked. 

 

Coming to the command line arguments, I would be doing exactly that to fetch data from an API i.e give command line arguments (metadata) that the script will pass on to the API to get exactly what I need. But I personally wouldn't even put the file in another directory, I'd just use a relative path like "~/Downloads/xyz.csv" and pass that path to the script. We programmers also like being explicit about our instructions to computers when possible because we also know how silly these things can behave when we assume they understand us.

 

Situations where hierarchy makes a lot of sense for me, beyond the file cabinet logic, are my software projects. Third party packages I install into my virtualenv are abstracted away from me, but I also need to understand how to make my own python "packages" which is just a directory with a specific file in it. Again, even though that would be solvable via some abstraction and metadata, we aren't there yet and a non explicit call to files will just bring so much vagueness to the whole equation from a developer's perspective. 

 

I personally do see the merit in a "query based" FS (I don't even know if others would call it that), but the way may things work in fields like programming, it could end up making me swim against the current. A good example of this is how a framework like Django or NestJS will give you an abstraction you can use to build some amazing stuff, but the experts will still tell you that intimate understanding of their inner workings is what allows some of us to do things other can't. So just like how a Linux kernel dev will always know more about the FS than mere web/app developers like me would, some fields will always need some higher degree of understanding. 

 

With that being said, I am not going to micro manage my images, videos, music or my text documents. I have really robust apps for the first three and just use macOS tags and sensible names to manage the last one. I'd still want to know my Downloads folder is something I can quickly "cmd/ctrl + A" and delete. 

 

 

You absolutely make valid points but isn't some of these things also down to "what you are used to". I mean you, me and most people have the folder structure so ingrained so it "feels" like the simplest way because you know the commands and work arounds to make stuff work. 

 

As a side note as a dual wielder, a Mac user (private computer that is being used when WFH) and a work issued Windows computer. Spotlight has seriously spoiled me and Windows is killing me having to actually dive into the folder system when I want files instead of just pressing cmd+space and typing and almost instantaneously getting to the file I want to reach. Don't know how Linux is on this front nowadays since it is a long time since I had a Linux rig as main computer (but back then the search wasn't anywhere near MacOS). 

[PessimalManiac]

17 minutes ago, Spindel said:

You absolutely make valid points but isn't some of these things also down to "what you are used to". I mean you, me and most people have the folder structure so ingrained so it "feels" like the simplest way because you know the commands and work arounds to make stuff work. 

That I must agree to, there are some aspects we are just inherently biased in. I used to hate not having control over where my photos are prior to Picasa. I was just saying that for some of us, these abstractions just get in the way and that there will be a huge distinction between desktop computing and the iPad Pro type of computing for a long time to come.

 

Though I do also understand the perspective of these lectures & professors. There are certain aspects of certain professions where we need to let go of these abstractions, and when the person you are trying to explain this stuff to is simply not equipped to understand, you can feel a little lost. I have been in those situations, though to a much lower degree.

 

But some of it, as the article points out is also a generational gap. My mother used to teach kids to use a computer (Windows 98 era in India where computers were a luxury and most people never saw one) and now she will literally break my MacBook in two if I had her use it. It is not because she doesn't understand the fundamentals, its because the paradigms are different and macOS is quite rare around here. She also can't navigate a Windows 10 PC as well as she can XP because of the same thing. I personally just use the best tool that I can get for the job at hand, be it a DB, a tree structure or a list. But I also feel like you can only make that choice if you know how to use all of them to an acceptable degree.

 

I only recently moved to macOS (2 months back) and I as much as I claim to be unbiased when it comes to desktop OS', spotlight is just spectacular for me. Linux has improved in this aspect recently and there are plenty of third party solutions that do function very well. Window search drives me nuts, but that is also not going to make me get rid of it. My desktop is going to a custom built Windows machine. And you may try Powertoys to sort of emulate the spotlight functions on Windows 10.  

[LAwLz]

2 hours ago, SlidewaysZ said:

Man this kinda blows my mind. I mean if you can't figure out the basic file directory why are you in STEM? The professors job shouldn't include a 2hr lesson on folder structure. I mean what's next a how to turn on a desktop lecture because people only use mobile devices? I'd love to see these students try and navigate through folders in the terminal window

I mean, they are in school because they want to learn. If they already knew everything they needed then the entire class would be pointless, no? Of course, education programs often assume some prior knowledge, but it seems to me like the concept wasn't hard to grasp for the students. Just that they had never encountered it before. Spend an hour or two to go through it for those that don't have experience with it, and then move on. 

 

By the way, navigating folders in a terminal window is exactly what these students struggled with, and I wouldn't be surprised if some smug people in this thread would have struggled as well. Some of the recommendations by the teachers at Stack Exchange even says Windows is a problem because of the many abstractions it puts in place (for example it has music, video and picture folders which do not expose the full directory tree when used).

 

 

I think this can be likened to me not knowing how to count in binary when I first started studying networking.

Super basic thing that you absolutely have to know to understand networking 101, but I had never encountered it before so I just didn't know. I had to learn that, and so did many of my student buddies. Or do XOR operations when I studied encryption.

[CerealExperimentsLain]

8 hours ago, Slottr said:

Not gonna lie: I've seen WAY too many first years just absolutely cripple trying to figure out where their pycharm projects are

 

This checks out

I've seen Zoomers who are social media savvy and they have a list of pirate streaming sites for TV and movies a mile long, you ask them about *torrenting* or anything where they'd have to manage files, it's like you just asked them to build a space ship.

[Forbidden Wafer]

Thank God I've never had this kinds of issues with my students.

 

For the other professors/teachers:
 

Spoiler

sucks to be you.

/s

 

[SolarNova]

Not surprising tbh.

 

With mobiles being on everyones person nowadays the locked down systems in use only allow for the very basic use of the UI.

 

In terms of broad generation terminology.  Boomers, Gen X, Millennial, Gen Z, Gen Alpha .... they all have a broad time period and in more cases than not, there can be a disparity between the oldest and youngest of these generations.

 

I'd say the oldest of GenZ (born in late 90's) shouldn't be having issue with normal PC file structure, however the youngest (born in the late 00's early 10's) i can certainly see there being issues.

 

Its a sad piece of evidence that making things simpler isnt always a good thing.

[Spindel]

14 minutes ago, SolarNova said:

Not surprising tbh.

 

With mobiles being on everyones person nowadays the locked down systems in use only allow for the very basic use of the UI.

 

In terms of broad generation terminology.  Boomers, Gen X, Millennial, Gen Z, Gen Alpha .... they all have a broad time period and in more cases than not, there can be a disparity between the oldest and youngest of these generations.

 

I'd say the oldest of GenZ (born in late 90's) shouldn't be having issue with normal PC file structure, however the youngest (born in the late 00's early 10's) i can certainly see there being issues.

 

Its a sad piece of evidence that making things simpler isnt always a good thing.

You are just doing the stupid old people "the kids today..." argument. 

 

It's like me complaining you don't know how to get in to C64 mode or load a tape on a C128. 

[AlTech]

As someone who is Gen Z and at one point in time was a Student (arguably still kinda am), I am not at all surprised or shocked by this.

 

Many people, not just Gen Z students, don't know and in many cases don't care about how any given underlying technology works - they just want to know enough to do what they need or want to do. This isn't necessarily a bad thing but cerainly a case could be made that perhaps we've abstracted away too much of computers and operating systems to the extent that youtubers such as Mental Outlaw say that an operating system is mainly just a boot loader for browsers at this point. This is what software has been turning into for the past decade or two and will probably continue this way.

9 hours ago, LAwLz said:

I am not surprised. I don't think it's necessarily a gen Z thing either. I don't think my mom would understand a whole lot about the Windows file directory either. She might know that she can put folders inside folders and make a tree like that, on her desktop, but that's probably about it.

I feel like this is the natural evolution of computers. As we build more abstraction and easy to use tools for users to use, the less people will understand the underlying technologies that makes it work.

Computer enthusiasts in the 70's were probably terrified to learn that people who programmed in BASIC didn't know how to program assembly, or punch cards or whatever.

 

 

This is a classic "wow, I can't believe someone doesn't know all the things I know. They sure are dumb for not knowing this!" circle-jerk piece.

Pretty much this. It also applies to other things too though like cars, airplanes, boats, etc. Because of how far all of these things have come people don't need to understand the inner workings of say a turbo fan engine to be able to fly a plane (although it may help), and drivers don't need to know how the drive fly by wire system in cars works; just that stepping on the accelerator causes the car to speed up etc.

[Clarkius]

11 hours ago, ZacoAttaco said:

Summary

In this recent article from The Verge, (yes, I know the infamous "Verge"), Monica Chin describes a changing climate for professors and teachers as many technological concepts deemed common knowledge for previous generations of students is found to no longer be the case

 

She interviews several professors and lecturers who detail their experience of asking students to retrieve files from certain folders from their PC with a response of blank stares and puzzled expressions from their pupils. 

 

Quotes

It seems this is not exclusive to psychology and physics students:

One lecturer's courses even "include a full two-hour lecture to explain directory structure. He likens finding files to giving driving directions. He shows maps of directory trees and asks his students to pretend they’re guiding others to a highlighted point. He uses every analogy he can think of."

 

My thoughts

Now obviously, this should all be taken with a grain of salt. Gen Z can be categorised as anyone born from mid-to-late 1990s to the early 2010s and not every one of that sample size has trouble using file directory. But I do think it is a sign of changing times. Big tech companies are prioritising usability over all else, we notice this trend over the years, this generation spends most of their screen time on their smartphone and are therfore not exposed to the file directory system we are all accustom to. With Windows too, we see the inclusion of the Windows 10 Settings app over previously used Control Panel and the way programs like Steam and Epic handle the organisation of game installations by refering to an unassuming background folders as well as the wider tech sectors continous push towards simpler, sleeker design. Like everything in the industry however, people will adapt, whether that means companies refocus their design to suit a new generation of users and their unique limitations or training instutions changing their curriculum and methodologies accordingly.

 

Honestly though, to me, these companies efforts to make things simpler and easier robs some of the joy of computing in my opinion. Everything has become so uniform and sterile. To me, the personality of the industry has moved aside to make room for clean cut colour palettes and minimalist design.

 

What are you thoughts?

Thanks,

Zac.

 

EDIT: Sorry, it's been a while since I've posted on the forum so hopefully everything is up to snuff!

Sources

https://www.theverge.com/22684730/students-file-folder-directory-structure-education-gen-z

https://cseducators.stackexchange.com/questions/3535/introducing-file-systems-to-students-who-really-dont-understand?noredirect=1&lq=1

 

This isn't really just limited to navigating file explorer either, I'm noticing a lot of younger people I interact with (even those closer to my own age in college) struggle with navigating websites to find download links etc 

[Brooksie359]

10 hours ago, Hassan170 said:

I can attest that there are indeed students who struggle with basic computer navigation, classmate of mine can't navigate word all that well. 

 

For the most part I'm not surprised, this IS the generation that either grew up with the smartphone or transitioned to it entirely.

Some people may never even use a desktop OS for a majority of their life.

I remember taking computer classes when I was in middle school and grade school so I wonder if they still do that for this generation? I mean it seems like it would be even more important to learn about computers now then it was back when I was growing up as our reliance on technology is only becoming more necessary. 

[NumLock21]

11 hours ago, Spotty said:

It's because everyone just watches porn in their web browser these days. They never learned to navigate elaborate folder structures to hide their porn stash.

I proudly store my pr0n stash in a folder on my desktop but they still can't find it when I uncheck show desktop icons, and they don't know the directory for desktop.

[StDragon]

Gen LOST more like it. Eventually the "PC" will go away in favor of a new paradigm in computing; Ambient Computing. This is where you don't own or directly operate anything of computing HW value. It's in everything from tables, countertops, walls, mirrors, the hand banister of a flight of stair...etc. You have something on you that's tracked. You're immersed in the "metaverse". Yet, you don't run any commands or open data directly. Your interaction with the metaverse and physical surroundings is 100% based on abstract interaction with touch, feel, sound, and speech.

If/when the EMP pops, the hard crash to reality is going to be a real bitch!

[GDRRiley]

I know its fun and all to make jokes at gen Z. I hate the younger part of my gen, hi smartphone babies.

its because school still doesn't teach the computer basics when kids are younger, chromebooks save money but mean kids never learn how to navigate to find files.

if its the first programing class it makes sense you'd want to go over that

[Sauron]

It's no wonder, there's been a pretty significant change in the user interfaces people use the most. In sandboxed environments like smartphones (and to some extent web browsers) you don't really have to think about where files are; each application curates its own storage. Instead of looking for a file and opening it, you open the program and then load the file from the program's internal list.

 

I don't necessarily think that's an issue, as UI changes the way you use it changes as well. I just wish there were be more consistency among the various UIs... it's not like this model can't work on desktop, some programs already implement similar mechanisms.

 

Obviously if you're taking a programming course you'll need to learn at least the very basics of computer science, there are plenty of things people new to this don't know that are just as important as system file structures. People take courses so they can learn, don't they?

 

Also, to be completely honest, on average people's desktops look like absolute trash and it's not new to gen Z or people who are used to smartphones. I don't think I could... live... like that but I suppose others might say the same about other things I don't know or care in the slightest about.

6 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Computer enthusiasts in the 70's were probably terrified to learn that people who programmed in BASIC didn't know how to program assembly, or punch cards or whatever.

This is absolutely correct and I can prove it https://www.cs.utah.edu/~elb/folklore/mel.html

Quote

Mel didn't approve of compilers. "If a program can't rewrite its own code", he asked, "what good is it?"

and also http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/real.programmers.html

[Zodiark1593]

5 hours ago, SlidewaysZ said:

Sad how will they ever convince people their a real hacker hacking the mainframe if they can't open command prompt and run tracert on google.com or ipconfig /all or ifconfig for my Linux peeps

On a side note, ipconfig absolutely saved my bacon when I wanted to get a local WAN Stardew Valley session up and running. 

[trag1c]

Not surprising. I am doing a computer science program right now and the amount of people who don't have basic computer skills is astounding. I'm on my 3rd semester of it and a lot of people still have no clue how to use a computer.

[StDragon]

7 minutes ago, trag1c said:

Not surprising. I am doing a computer science program right now and the amount of people who don't have basic computer skills is astounding. I'm on my 3rd semester of it and a lot of people still have no clue how to use a computer.

 

[Fasterthannothing]

42 minutes ago, trag1c said:

Not surprising. I am doing a computer science program right now and the amount of people who don't have basic computer skills is astounding. I'm on my 3rd semester of it and a lot of people still have no clue how to use a computer.

[da na]

Students at my old school confused saving things to their hard drive and saving things to google drive. Partially the teachers' faults, they would say "now save this to your computer" and I learned the hard way that that didn't mean actually put it on your drive