A COMPLETELY Upgradeable Laptop?

[just_dave]

-

[Just that Mario]

I personally think it is cool, but isn't special enough to jump on it unless you just have the money to just spend on a cool toy or are looking for a new laptop anyways and this newcomer fits your needs.

 

Looking at it, you can see they took LOTS of inspiration from Apple when comes to design, I am fine with that. Apple does have good designs. Though top half of it looks like an old Lenovo ThinkPad. Everything else is cool, but kind of meh. I don't usually break my devices nor do they get damaged. I take care of my devices. I don't ever see needing to swap out ports or have need for the speaker to be "just remove two screws" replaceable. Probably the entire device will be outdated and long in need for an upgrade before they break for me. Here comes my concern with how Linus advertised it - upgradeable. It is not. It is just configurable and component "hubs", "blocks" are replacable, but the system is not upgradable. My second concern is its pricing, specially the CPU upgrade prices. from one i7 to another is +400? Both have about the same suggested price by Intel (419 vs 426 if I remember correctly). Price differences between the i5 and i7 according to Intel is roughly 130 USD, but the upgrade is +300? Where do these markups come from? Another worrying thing is, it is only USA and Canadian market. Lastly, what's the expected life expectancy of this project?

It's cool, but considering all of the above plus its overall pricing, I don't see it being a better pick for a portable laptop than my entry level M1 MacBook Air. With a pretty modest setup I got its original price to 1238 before tax. After U.S tax and shipping and import fees it'd be around 1.8k to 2k purchase.

[da na]

I could not afford it, but as someone who repairs laptops I love the idea of it. I can see some users wanting a more Apple-like experience of "it just works", but I think most users would like an easily upgradeable and configurable laptop. I could see it being longer lasting and cheaper to keep running in the long run though. I hope other companies pick up on this idea and it becomes more mainstream.

[Chris Pratt]

I love it. If it wasn't for the fact that I already have a very decent laptop, I'd jump on it in a heartbeat. I only wish there was an option for a discrete GPU. It doesn't have to me anything crazy like a 3080 or something, just better than integrated graphics. It's obviously not designed to be a gaming laptop, but there's plenty of productivity workloads that could benefit from even a modest dGPU.

[Chris Pratt]

13 minutes ago, Mel0nMan said:

I could not afford it, but as someone who repairs laptops I love the idea of it. I can see some users wanting a more Apple-like experience of "it just works", but I think most users would like an easily upgradeable and configurable laptop. I could see it being longer lasting and cheaper to keep running in the long run though. I hope other companies pick up on this idea and it becomes more mainstream.

It would be really interesting to see it live up to its name and become a framework for other manufacturers. Imagine having versions of this from MSI, Asus, etc. that were all cross compatible with each other. I call that a long shot at best, but no harm in dreaming.

[Quackers101]

3 hours ago, Jaofilipe said:

 

Spoiler

that is so NSFW

[startrek03]

Imo one of the biggest issues of repairable laptops are the non-standardized, proprietary motherboards all laptops have. There simply is no industry standard like for example ATX. And yes, this is difficult to become a thing as the I/O which is tied to the chassis layout and design (which is a selling point!) is usually a part of the motherboard. Therefore, under current circumstances it isn't really feasible to switch the CPU out since you'd bascially buy a new laptop. And that's still the case for the Framework. RAM and storage are really the only components you could reliably continue to use after a CPU upgrade. For other stuff like the battery, keyboard or display you'd not only need a very, very generous company behind the device, but also a ton of luck.

Personally, I'd appreciate more standards for laptop components. I could even imagine a seperation of the mainboard and the I/O, so upgrades would be more feasible. This would have to be quite restrictive in design to be feasible, though, making it harder to implement in the kind of device we know. (In order for the concept of modular laptops to be feasible, you'd theoretically need standards for every part of a laptop: chassis, motherboard, possibly GPU, RAM, storage, add-in cards, display, trackpad, keyboard, webcam, microphone etc. Some could be combined though. If you would not have those standards, you'd continue to have modular products without long term support i think.)

However, I don't think that the Framework will lead into that direction. Yes, the configurable I/O is neat, but lacking at the same time as you are quite limited in terms of the amount of I/O.

[Kilrah]

Merged into the main discussion thread.

 

1 hour ago, Just that Mario said:

Here comes my concern with how Linus advertised it - upgradeable. It is not. It is just configurable and component "hubs", "blocks" are replacable, but the system is not upgradable.

 

According to the company it is, while you can't swap CPU the video mentioned they would provide upgrade motherboards.

 

And still you can upgrade memory and storage which has always been enough to consider a laptop "upgradable". 

 

Would love to buy one to replace my Dell I've always had quite a few annoyances with but it first have to come with an ISO keyboard option (there are pics of it so should be planned) and I'd want a touchscreen, also planned it seems, so I'll hurry up and wait...

 

But it's all so well thought out I'd just want to support it anyway, every small detail has been tackled which is surprising for a first version...

[Jtalk4456]

I love the idea of this, but I simply don't use laptops anymore. Haven't had a laptop since college, and don't plan to ever go back. Good for them though

[sterdog]

I purchased one. Simple reason. I can buy a Dell XPS 13" with similar specs in Canada for around $2K. Sure, I might get it on sale for $1.6K later this year but today it's over $2K. That's a computer I'll pass off in a year or two and basically be a waste to me. This machine, as I built it, was $1.7K and I have a possible upgrade path. Worst case scenario, I have a computer I'll use for a couple of years that's not a Dell that looks like a Dell/MacBook that saved me a few hundred dollars. 

[IAmAndre]

5 hours ago, Just that Mario said:

Looking at it, you can see they took LOTS of inspiration from Apple when comes to design, I am fine with that. Apple does have good designs. Though top half of it looks like an old Lenovo ThinkPad

Like most ultrabooks, there's not much to innovate about in this regard.

 

5 hours ago, Just that Mario said:

Here comes my concern with how Linus advertised it - upgradeable. It is not. It is just configurable and component "hubs", "blocks" are replacable, but the system is not upgradable.

The RAM, storage, and most components including the CPU can be upgraded. If that doesn't make it upgradable, what would?

 

5 hours ago, Just that Mario said:

My second concern is its pricing, specially the CPU upgrade prices. from one i7 to another is +400? Both have about the same suggested price by Intel (419 vs 426 if I remember correctly). Price differences between the i5 and i7 according to Intel is roughly 130 USD, but the upgrade is +300? Where do these markups come from?

Apple charges $200 to go from 250GB of storage to 500GB. That pricing is quite on par with what most manufacturers are charging including Dell and HP (I don't even want to mention Apple). That's nothing new, you're not going to get the OEM prices when buying a laptop.

 

5 hours ago, Just that Mario said:

Another worrying thing is, it is only USA and Canadian market.

They currently ship to North America only but the website gives you the option to get notified when it arrives to your region.

5 hours ago, Just that Mario said:

Lastly, what's the expected life expectancy of this project?

Just like any new project, you can't tell for sure. It depends on the success of the product.

[IAmAndre]

9 minutes ago, sterdog said:

I purchased one. Simple reason. I can buy a Dell XPS 13" with similar specs in Canada for around $2K. Sure, I might get it on sale for $1.6K later this year but today it's over $2K. That's a computer I'll pass off in a year or two and basically be a waste to me. This machine, as I built it, was $1.7K and I have a possible upgrade path. Worst case scenario, I have a computer I'll use for a couple of years that's not a Dell that looks like a Dell/MacBook that saved me a few hundred dollars. 

I have pretty much the same reasoning, but then I realized that you can have used XPS or Precision laptops for under a grand. I'm still more inclined towards Framework because I want to support the company.

[Fasterthannothing]

7 hours ago, Just that Mario said:

I personally think it is cool, but isn't special enough to jump on it unless you just have the money to just spend on a cool toy or are looking for a new laptop anyways and this newcomer fits your needs.

 

Looking at it, you can see they took LOTS of inspiration from Apple when comes to design, I am fine with that. Apple does have good designs. Though top half of it looks like an old Lenovo ThinkPad. Everything else is cool, but kind of meh. I don't usually break my devices nor do they get damaged. I take care of my devices. I don't ever see needing to swap out ports or have need for the speaker to be "just remove two screws" replaceable. Probably the entire device will be outdated and long in need for an upgrade before they break for me. Here comes my concern with how Linus advertised it - upgradeable. It is not. It is just configurable and component "hubs", "blocks" are replacable, but the system is not upgradable. My second concern is its pricing, specially the CPU upgrade prices. from one i7 to another is +400? Both have about the same suggested price by Intel (419 vs 426 if I remember correctly). Price differences between the i5 and i7 according to Intel is roughly 130 USD, but the upgrade is +300? Where do these markups come from? Another worrying thing is, it is only USA and Canadian market. Lastly, what's the expected life expectancy of this project?

It's cool, but considering all of the above plus its overall pricing, I don't see it being a better pick for a portable laptop than my entry level M1 MacBook Air. With a pretty modest setup I got its original price to 1238 before tax. After U.S tax and shipping and import fees it'd be around 1.8k to 2k purchase.

The main board can be upgraded. https://community.frame.work/t/the-upgradeable-mainboard/156

 

 If it was just modular pieces I wouldn't have bought it. But upgrading the main board is something I can put money down for. I'm sick of buying a laptop and then once it gets old that's it it's done and you throw a really lightweight version of Linux on it and use it as a backup. BUt it's stupid that it's taken till 2021 for someone to decide to sell just a motherboard and CPU upgrade. 

[Fasterthannothing]

5 hours ago, Jtalk4456 said:

I love the idea of this, but I simply don't use laptops anymore. Haven't had a laptop since college, and don't plan to ever go back. Good for them though

I'm in tbe same boat. But when I see something that's a good product with passion and a solid vision behind it I tend to throw some money towards the product to support the idea if I can. I figure I get a good laptop that I can use when I travel occasionally and browsing while on the couch or something and I also get to support someone actually trying to make a semi modular laptop.

[Kilrah]

I have an XPS 13 and that's what I'd want to replace with this...

 

Too many BIOS shenanigans, inconsistent performance etc to my liking on the Dell. Seems almost every major brand has those and it's my uncommon devices that work best for me, so I'd trust framework got that stuff right.

[Quackers101]

1 minute ago, Kilrah said:

I have an XPS 13 and that's what I'd want to replace with this...

 

Too many BIOS shenanigans, inconsistent performance etc to my liking on the Dell. Seems almost every major brand has those and it's my uncommon devices that work best for me, so I'd trust framework got that stuff right.

would think they still need to go through some versions before the right support and feature set is on a good path.

Unless you want an early version that might need changes in the future.

[AzuriteShift]

Why even bother with this laptop when you can get a system with a desktop cpu socket and a MXM compliant GPU slot from other manufacturers already? It costs 2 grand for an i5 with no GPU it makes NO SENSE to buy it. We dont even know if this startup will last long enough to release a new mobo and cpu to put in this system. Clevo sells a system with a swappable intel cpu and a swappable 3060 for 200$ less than the goofy framework system that doesnt even ship to you for another 6 months. https://clevo-computer.com/en/laptops-configurator/purpose/gaming-esport-ready/5534/clevo-n960kp-intel-core-10/11-generation-desktop-processor-nvidia-rtx-3060

Ive personally used their systems for the past 8 years and they beat every other system ive ever had for the money easily. Its really similar to building a PC but with a laptop formfactor when you build a barebones system with them. Even Dell uses the MXM swappable gpu standard in their alienware laptops to this day like this company has no reason to exist. They either need to start using MXM or SERIOUSLY drop their prices they dont make sense at any level the way things are currently

[AzuriteShift]

2 hours ago, Kilrah said:

I have an XPS 13 and that's what I'd want to replace with this...

 

Too many BIOS shenanigans, inconsistent performance etc to my liking on the Dell. Seems almost every major brand has those and it's my uncommon devices that work best for me, so I'd trust framework got that stuff right.

Should have gotten a system with an MXM swappable GPU dell already sells stuff like that from their alienware line the XPS hasnt been good for the money since 2011. I jumped ship from the XPS when they started making them overly thin with crap cooling and didnt offer gpus in them. Dell copied everything that sucks about macbooks with their XPS line and lost a ton of customers. The XPS doesnt even work on your lap it has all the heat vent out from the bottom and it cant breathe at all unless its on a table

[WkdPaul]

14 minutes ago, AzuriteShift said:

 like this company has no reason to exist.

except they absolutely do.

 

You not finding value in a product doesn't mean it's useless and shouldn't exist.

[AzuriteShift]

14 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

except they absolutely do.

 

You not finding value in a product doesn't mean it's useless and shouldn't exist.

I bet 20$ they wont last long enough to even release a new cpu module and everyone will be stuck with a system they cant upgrade at all. They are already outpriced and supplanted by even DELL. You cant swap a gpu in a system that doesnt even come with one  Ive seen ultralights that still have room for a 2.5" drive when it doesnt have a gpu like the framework does. They just dont fit in the market the way they built their first system. Its too small to fit the components that people like us would expect from a modular system and they dont even bother using a desktop cpu socket like the big boys at gigabyte and asus do. I hope that they use MXM and desktop cpu sockets and considerably lower their prices because they cant compete the way that they run their gig at the moment. Like if you want a cool startup thats focused on right to repair go for a https://system76.com system with windows installed its the same idea but with much better execution and price

[WkdPaul]

11 minutes ago, AzuriteShift said:

Just because you arent aware of what else is for sale with the same feature set doesnt mean this product has a reason to exist.

Bold of you to assume I'm unaware of what's out there in terms of laptop.

 

Like I said, if you don't find value in this ; don't buy it and get what you need. Mocking others for different preferences than you is rather petty, pointless, and unnecessary.

[AzuriteShift]

7 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

Bold of you to assume I'm unaware of what's out there in terms of laptop.

 

Like I said, if you don't find value in this ; don't buy it and get what you need. Mocking others for different preferences than you is rather petty, pointless, and unnecessary.

Sorry I assumed that you didnt know about other modular systems on the market when you defended the framework. That was rude and impulsive of me. I just hope that people look into modular laptops more as a whole after seeing the framework. I would love to see desktop sockets and MXM slotted gpus become more ubiquitous in the future for laptops as they are kinda hard to come by in a retail environment.

[WkdPaul]

3 minutes ago, AzuriteShift said:

Sorry I assumed that you didnt know about other modular systems on the market when you defended the framework. That was rude and impulsive of me.

All I did was point out that YOU not liking the product doesn't invalidate it, that's all.

 

As a side note, seeing as you're a new user, I would suggest dropping the passive-aggressive behaviour and to take some time to read the forum rules outlined in the Community Standards.

[Kilrah]

1 hour ago, AzuriteShift said:

I bet 20$ they wont last long enough to even release a new cpu module and everyone will be stuck with a system they cant upgrade at all. They are already outpriced and supplanted by even DELL. You cant swap a gpu in a system that doesnt even come with one 

My dell was more expensive than the framework, and has no GPU either. I don't care about a GPU or any kind of gaming in my laptop in the first place.

 

1 hour ago, AzuriteShift said:

Clevo sells a system with a swappable intel cpu and a swappable 3060 for 200$ less than the goofy framework system that doesnt even ship to you for another 6 months. https://clevo-computer.com/en/laptops-configurator/purpose/gaming-esport-ready/5534/clevo-n960kp-intel-core-10/11-generation-desktop-processor-nvidia-rtx-3060

And it's a freaking brick. One of my complaints about my 13" dell is that it's a bit too heavy at 1.3kg. 

These have literally nothing in common and it makes zero sense to imagine a customer for one would be happy with the other. 

 

1 hour ago, AzuriteShift said:

 They just dont fit in the market the way they built their first system. Its too small to fit the components that people like us would expect from a modular system

I find it just right. Of course it's not going to be for everyone, nothing is. Move along. 

 

[Just that Mario]

On 7/28/2021 at 5:57 AM, SlidewaysZ said:

The main board can be upgraded. https://community.frame.work/t/the-upgradeable-mainboard/156

Wasn't aware of this. It wasn't made clear that it can be upgraded.

 

On 7/28/2021 at 3:35 AM, IAmAndre said:

Like most ultrabooks, there's not much to innovate about in this regard.

The RAM, storage, and most components including the CPU can be upgraded. If that doesn't make it upgradable, what would?
Apple charges $200 to go from 250GB of storage to 500GB. That pricing is quite on par with what most manufacturers are charging including Dell and HP (I don't even want to mention Apple). That's nothing new, you're not going to get the OEM prices when buying a laptop.

They currently ship to North America only but the website gives you the option to get notified when it arrives to your region.

Can't figure out how to split this reply into multiple sections, so... I am not mad they copied Apple for the bottom half, I am just bummed top half looks like it is from a decade old Lenovo ThinkPad. I wasn't aware they will make the motherboard/CPU swappable. While yes, upgrades make usually little sense, with them using off-the shelf CPU and trying to be "better", it would've been nice if there wouldn't be such insane markup on a CPU. Yes, they MAY ship some day to Europe, but taxes, etc will still apply, which makes it plenty more expensive than its original price.

I am not against the product, I think it's really cool, but it's not cool enough for me to justify it. I thought the M1 macbook was cool and it got me hyped. I had never had an macbook and I eventually decided to buy it months after original release. I love it and I don't see ever using a Windows laptop again tbf. Its price was compelling and it is most convinient portable computer I've used so far. If the price on a laptop goes into a really decent desktop setup, then I sort of lose desire to purchase it.