A COMPLETELY Upgradeable Laptop?

[Just that Mario]

On 7/27/2021 at 11:33 PM, Kilrah said:

According to the company it is, while you can't swap CPU the video mentioned they would provide upgrade motherboards.

Didn't realise the CPU/motherboard will be upgradable. Hopefully for reasonable pricing. RAM/Storage swaps/upgrades doesn't get me that excited, tbf. If they could make a competitive Windows version of a MacBook, that'd be something to get excited about imo.

[IAmAndre]

9 minutes ago, Just that Mario said:

, they MAY ship some day to Europe, but taxes, etc will still apply, which makes it plenty more expensive than its original price.

Just any laptop, including MacBook Air M1 itself. It costs $999 in the US vs €1100 or something in the EU so about a $200-300 difference

[Just that Mario]

4 hours ago, IAmAndre said:

Just any laptop, including MacBook Air M1 itself. It costs $999 in the US vs €1100 or something in the EU so about a $200-300 difference

Don't forget 999 USD is without taxes. 'Muricans love to do on-the-fly maths or have the "surprise mechanic" on the checkout. But still, this laptop would be minimum 30% (Import fees and 20% VAT) more expensive than an M1 MacBook Air...

[IAmAndre]

2 hours ago, Just that Mario said:

Don't forget 999 USD is without taxes. 'Muricans love to do on-the-fly maths or have the "surprise mechanic" on the checkout. But still, this laptop would be minimum 30% (Import fees and 20% VAT) more expensive than an M1 MacBook Air...

Yes, it's without the tax, but depending on the State is either zero tax, or about $70 at most. Still $200-300 cheaper than the price in the EU. Considering that the Framework prices start at $700-800 vs $999 for the MBA, it's still going to be cheaper depending on your configuration, let alone the fact that it can be upgraded along the way.

[IkeaGnome]

2 hours ago, Just that Mario said:

Don't forget 999 USD is without taxes. 'Muricans love to do on-the-fly maths or have the "surprise mechanic" on the checkout. But still, this laptop would be minimum 30% (Import fees and 20% VAT) more expensive than an M1 MacBook Air...

 

27 minutes ago, IAmAndre said:

Yes, it's without the tax, but depending on the State is either zero tax, or about $70 at most. Still $200-300 cheaper than the price in the EU. Considering that the Framework prices start at $700-800 vs $999 for the MBA, it's still going to be cheaper depending on your configuration, let alone the fact that it can be upgraded along the way.

This is why. There is no sales tax where I live. There's many places without it. My state doesn't have it, but allows towns to set their own. Most places, like where I live, that don't have tourism just leave it at 0 and set property tax a little higher. Places with lots of tourism will have almost no property tax, but have sales tax. 

 

It's not so much that we love to do on the fly math, or love the surprise mechanic on check out. People forget that the states are more like the separate countries in the EU. Each one has it's own laws and taxes and everything else. So having the price online include tax would have to include location data and what not turned on and set up to work on the site. That's why most sites that ship in the US calculate sales tax on check out. If I buy something online from a company in California, they can't charge me sales tax. It's based on the purchaser's location and not seller's.

[hishnash]

10 hours ago, Just that Mario said:

Didn't realise the CPU/motherboard will be upgradable. Hopefully for reasonable pricing. RAM/Storage swaps/upgrades doesn't get me that excited, tbf. If they could make a competitive Windows version of a MacBook, that'd be something to get excited about imo.

That is the question, will the provide motherboard upgrades? it would be more compelling if they had at launch at least one other motherboard option (maybe something with a dGPU) or even something with LPDDR4x memory, 

 

yes LPDDR4x memory would be soldered to the board but would give quite a bit of extra battery life, if they had a motherboard (option) that let you select this it would be a good thing.  (if you need to upgrade this memory you can always take it/send the board to a skilled repair shop who can desolder the memory dies and put larger capacity dies on this is well within the means of a skilled compute repair show and will not cost you that much and is much better for the environment than replacing a DDR dim).

But really the what i'm concerned about in repairability is access to board components and I do not expect them to be able to provide these, many of the hard to come by board components tend to be sold to OEMs under strict terms of sale that restrict them from selling them on as components. Intel for example will not sell you a laptop BGA chip or the motherboard chipset unless you agree that it will only be sold on as part of a soldered motherboard, the same is true for other parts as well. 

Having lots of break out boards does not masssivly improve the e-waist situation that much, when your SSD writes get used up what you should be doing is going to a local repair shop and having them swap out the SSD dies rather than throwing away the NVM stick (and thus throwing away a perfectly working SSD controller and SDRAM chip).

[Just that Mario]

On 7/30/2021 at 1:16 AM, hishnash said:

That is the question, will the provide motherboard upgrades? it would be more compelling if they had at launch at least one other motherboard option (maybe something with a dGPU) or even something with LPDDR4x memory, 

 

yes LPDDR4x memory would be soldered to the board but would give quite a bit of extra battery life, if they had a motherboard (option) that let you select this it would be a good thing.  (if you need to upgrade this memory you can always take it/send the board to a skilled repair shop who can desolder the memory dies and put larger capacity dies on this is well within the means of a skilled compute repair show and will not cost you that much and is much better for the environment than replacing a DDR dim).

But really the what i'm concerned about in repairability is access to board components and I do not expect them to be able to provide these, many of the hard to come by board components tend to be sold to OEMs under strict terms of sale that restrict them from selling them on as components. Intel for example will not sell you a laptop BGA chip or the motherboard chipset unless you agree that it will only be sold on as part of a soldered motherboard, the same is true for other parts as well. 

Having lots of break out boards does not masssivly improve the e-waist situation that much, when your SSD writes get used up what you should be doing is going to a local repair shop and having them swap out the SSD dies rather than throwing away the NVM stick (and thus throwing away a perfectly working SSD controller and SDRAM chip).

Yep. As I said - cool device and cool idea, but it ain't really special and as a consumer product it actually doesn't even seem great. Looking at how basic CPU from them is about 700 USD, I'd be safe to bet the CPU/MOBO upgrade kits (if they ever will come) will cost so much that you'll basically be paying for a new laptop anyways.

[Just that Mario]

On 7/29/2021 at 9:41 PM, IAmAndre said:

Yes, it's without the tax, but depending on the State is either zero tax, or about $70 at most. Still $200-300 cheaper than the price in the EU. Considering that the Framework prices start at $700-800 vs $999 for the MBA, it's still going to be cheaper depending on your configuration, let alone the fact that it can be upgraded along the way.

They do not start at 700 - 800 USD though. From their website: Framework Laptop starts at $999. DIY Edition configurable from $749. The 749 price is just chassis, motherboard and the CPU. Absolutely nothing else. Base configuration ends up like 983 or something anyways and that's without OS.

[hishnash]

1 hour ago, Just that Mario said:

upgrade kits (if they ever will come) will cost so much that you'll basically be paying for a new laptop anyways.

At least with intel I don't think they they would be able to get away selling a `cpu motherboard` upgrade kit. Intel really do not want their BGA OEM cpus going out into the market outside of OEM systems (even for repair). I expect that to legally sell a cpu/motherboard upgrade kit it would need to ship (and maybe even be marketed) as a system in its own write. 





 

[IAmAndre]

1 hour ago, Just that Mario said:

They do not start at 700 - 800 USD though. From their website: Framework Laptop starts at $999. DIY Edition configurable from $749. The 749 price is just chassis, motherboard and the CPU. Absolutely nothing else. Base configuration ends up like 983 or something anyways and that's without OS.

I've made my own configuration with an i5 and 8GB of RAM for $850, and that includes $50 in ports only. Considering the fact that I can then upgrade the RAM and storage, it makes it a better deal than a MBA. Even now, if I spec it all the way up and add in 2TB of SSD and 32GB of RAM it's way cheaper than an MBA that would cost $2000+ and come with only 16GB of RAM and no ports.

 

On top of that, this laptop isn't even targeting the MBA. It's just an alternative although it's still very competitive against it.

[Stonelesscutter]

I just saw the WAN show and felt I could offer a suggestion for the matter of Linus investing (or not) in Framework. Came to the forum and this seemed like a suitable place to post it. If there is a more suitable spot for this particular discussion, I hope a mod will move the post.

 

First of all, instead of purchasing stock, there is the option of providing the company with a line of credit to be paid back over time. This should help to alleviate concerns about the investment because it would gradually diminish until eventually it has all been recouped and the investment would thus drop to zero.

 

You could take it even further by making it a gift instead of a loan. Using your status as an influencer, you could ask the community to help support the company with donations. Lots of small amounts would together become significant. People who are interested in supporting the cause can do so at their own free will. Those who are against it simply won't support. Linus could offer to match the amount raised, up to a certain maximum he would feel comfortable with.

 

Instead of straight up donations, LTT store could be involved. There could be a checkbox during the checkout process asking to indicate whether a buyer would like to support Framework with their purchase. If a buyer indicates they want to do that, a certain percentage of the sale would go to the cause, whilst of course still leaving some profit for LTT, or at the very least a break-even. There could be a Humble-inspired slider to make it possible to indicate how much of the amount (between pre-designated points) a buyer would like to go to the cause.

 

You could do a combination of these ideas. For example, provide Framework with a financial injection straight up, and then take the money from the incoming donations and sales (or even just a part of those income streams) and put that back into your account until the entire investment has been recouped. Then continue to support with any further proceeds coming in.

 

If I'm not mistaken, the above suggestions shouldn't raise concerns from viewers regarding impartiality, because there is not an actual stake. There is simply the promotion of a worthwhile cause and the goodwill of individuals to support it.

[Just that Mario]

1 hour ago, IAmAndre said:

I've made my own configuration with an i5 and 8GB of RAM for $850, and that includes $50 in ports only. Considering the fact that I can then upgrade the RAM and storage, it makes it a better deal than a MBA. Even now, if I spec it all the way up and add in 2TB of SSD and 32GB of RAM it's way cheaper than an MBA that would cost $2000+ and come with only 16GB of RAM and no ports.

 

On top of that, this laptop isn't even targeting the MBA. It's just an alternative although it's still very competitive against it.

How do you get a full system at 850 on that site? THIS is lowest specs selected for a complete system (WITHOUT OS) and total is 977. A fully speced out M1 MBA is 1869 USD. "same" spec (highest end CPU, 16GB of RAM, 2TB SN750 SSD) FramWork laptop is 2066 USD. For another 16 GB of RAM it'll be +90, for SN850 SSD +90. Why do you pull your pricing and "facts" out of your ass?

PS: FrameWork pricings DO NOT include price of the OS.

[Just that Mario]

Serious question, why doesn't Framework supply a method to stop customer from ordering a system that is not usable? Like, you can get 4 HDMI modules, 4 USB-A modules or 4 DP modules, but the 4x video output is worthless and without at least ONE USB-C module you CAN NOT charge the laptop as only means of charging it is an USB-C port and only built-in port is a 3.5mm audio jack?! Is this an oversight from Framework or did they just sent it and were like "f*ck it!"?

 

I am now quietly waiting for the Oof moments where people didn't add an USB-C module to their order.

EDIT: Apparently there is a section for this in the FAQ questions, but seriously, who reads that? It should come with a single built-in USB-C, have an USB-C module automatically selected or bare minimum have a big NB! when you haven't got an USB-C module selected.

[IAmAndre]

1 hour ago, Just that Mario said:

How do you get a full system at 850 on that site? THIS is lowest specs selected for a complete system (WITHOUT OS) and total is 977. A fully speced out M1 MBA is 1869 USD. "same" spec (highest end CPU, 16GB of RAM, 2TB SN750 SSD) FramWork laptop is 2066 USD. For another 16 GB of RAM it'll be +90, for SN850 SSD +90. Why do you pull your pricing and "facts" out of your ass?

PS: FrameWork pricings DO NOT include price of the OS.

Speaking of facts, your screenshot shows that the actual configuration costs $882, which is less than the $999 of the base MBA model. Fine, you then spend $50 on ports, two of which aren't present on the MBA so you'd need a dongle to get them on a MBA, which would cost you money. You then add $50 for a charger that many people won't need if they already have big enough USB-C charger. Even with all of that it's still cheaper than the MBA, and has upgradability options. Why are we still arguing?

 

1 hour ago, Just that Mario said:

A fully speced out M1 MBA is 1869 USD.

Another one of your "facts" I guess? Here's what I see on the Apple website:

 

 

For that same money, I can get an i7, 64GB of RAM and a 2TB SSD. Plus the possibility to upgrade along the way. And ports! Again, why are we still arguing?

 

[IAmAndre]

1 hour ago, Just that Mario said:

Serious question, why doesn't Framework supply a method to stop customer from ordering a system that is not usable? Like, you can get 4 HDMI modules, 4 USB-A modules or 4 DP modules, but the 4x video output is worthless

Why would that be useless? You don't know everybody's use cases. You might have virtual machines for instance configured to use a specific port/device, and that's just one example. This an enthusiast-oriented product.

[Just that Mario]

19 minutes ago, IAmAndre said:

Why would that be useless? You don't everybody's use cases. You might have virtual machines for instance configured to use a specific port/device, and that's just one example. This an enthusiast-oriented product.

You're <removed by staff> if you must ask that. The laptop REQUIRES an USB-C to be charged.

 

22 minutes ago, IAmAndre said:

Speaking of facts, your screenshot shows that the actual configuration costs $882, which is less than the $999 of the base MBA model. Fine, you then spend $50 on ports, two of which aren't present on the MBA so you'd need a dongle to get them on a MBA, which would cost you money. You then add $50 for a charger that many people won't need if they already have big enough USB-C charger. Even with all of that it's still cheaper than the MBA, and has upgradability options. Why are we still arguing?

 

Another one of your "facts" I guess? Here's what I see on the Apple website:

 

 

For that same money, I can get an i7, 64GB of RAM and a 2TB SSD. Plus the possibility to upgrade along the way. Again, why are we still arguing?

 

<removed by staff>. "The actual configuration" is bare minimum of the system with ZERO ports and no charger. BASE configuration, the non DIY one starts at 999 USD and still REQUIRES ports and a charger. You CAN NOT get it cheaper than an M1 MBA unless you DO NOT get a full working system. Heck, even if you do select everything hardware wise, you will still require an OS.

 

7 core GPU version is 1799 USD, 8 core GPU version is 1869 USD.

Edited July 31, 2021 by SansVarnic
Removed content.

[Freakwise]

10 minutes ago, Just that Mario said:

Heck, even if you do select everything hardware wise, you will still require an OS.

[Just that Mario]

2 minutes ago, Freakwise said:

Yes, but costs extra 139 or 199 if you choose the DIY path. Do you even read or check the configurator before commenting?

[Freakwise]

12 minutes ago, Just that Mario said:

Yes, but costs extra 139 or 199 if you choose the DIY path

Yeah but you can buy your own win10 key for cheap

[Just that Mario]

12 minutes ago, Freakwise said:

Yeah but you can buy your own win10 key for cheap

Which isn't really valid argument, when comparing OE pricing, specially as cost of the OS was never taken into consideration in the above pricing comparison numbers anyways.

[Fasterthannothing]

49 minutes ago, Just that Mario said:

Yes, but costs extra 139 or 199 if you choose the DIY path. Do you even read or check the configurator before commenting?

Most people are buying the DIY for the cost savings because they are installing Linux.

[Fasterthannothing]

2 hours ago, Just that Mario said:

Serious question, why doesn't Framework supply a method to stop customer from ordering a system that is not usable? Like, you can get 4 HDMI modules, 4 USB-A modules or 4 DP modules, but the 4x video output is worthless and without at least ONE USB-C module you CAN NOT charge the laptop as only means of charging it is an USB-C port and only built-in port is a 3.5mm audio jack?! Is this an oversight from Framework or did they just sent it and were like "f*ck it!"?

 

I am now quietly waiting for the Oof moments where people didn't add an USB-C module to their order.

EDIT: Apparently there is a section for this in the FAQ questions, but seriously, who reads that? It should come with a single built-in USB-C, have an USB-C module automatically selected or bare minimum have a big NB! when you haven't got an USB-C module selected.

You can use the laptop perfectly fine without a USB C module. You just have to plug the USB C cable into the recessed module port. So even if someone was not thinking and purchased every single port except USB C they could still use it.

[IAmAndre]

1 hour ago, Just that Mario said:

You're <removed by staff> if you must ask that. The laptop REQUIRES an USB-C to be charged

False. You can use the included USB C receptacle to charge. It's clear mentioned in the FAQ. It's just less convenient but I can clearly see someone remove one of the HDMI ports at the end of the day to charge the laptop as it's much less hassle than reconfiguring the VM's, or even buy a USB C port and use it when they need to charge the laptop. And that's just one example.

 

1 hour ago, Just that Mario said:

The actual configuration" is bare minimum of the system with ZERO ports and no charger. BASE configuration, the non DIY one starts at 999 USD and still REQUIRES ports and a charger. You CAN NOT get it cheaper than an M1 MBA unless you DO NOT get a full working system. Heck, even if you do select everything hardware wise, you will still require an OS.

 

Can you just stop spreading wrong information and read the actual content on the website? The base $999 model does come with an OS and a charger, and also 8GB of ram so it's clearly usable as it is. Now if you do it add some ports you will get into MBA territory, but again you get the possibility to upgrade the RAM and storage so money wise it's still a better option for that audience.

 

1 hour ago, Just that Mario said:

core GPU version is 1799 USD, 8 core GPU version is 1869 USD.

The two listings are the same and it shows at 2000 for me. Anyway for that money you'd still get twice the amount of RAM and the possibility to upgrade.

[IAmAndre]

6 minutes ago, SlidewaysZ said:

Most people are buying the DIY for the cost savings because they are installing Linux.

I forgot to mention that too. It's not like Windows was the only os out there.

[Vishera]

In all honesty - this laptop is less upgradeable than my laptop.

I can upgrade the CPU!