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Is ARM the future?

curiousmind34
By curiousmind34
in General Discussion
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Posted

x86 is not that power efficient and has been lagging behind a bit in the generation to generation performance uplift that apple's arm chips do. Do you think there will be a point (and when) where Intel and AMD will stop making x86 chips and start making ARM ones. Are there going to be hybrid chips with a few arm cores and a few x86 cores? Curious what the forum thinks.

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I don't know. ARM may become common in laptops soon, but I doubt it will be popular in desktops for a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time (due to power efficiency not mattering much for desktop).

My primary system: Core I7 10700k, 32 gb Trident Z RGB ram@3200mhz, EVGA GTX 970 SSC (will upgrade), NZXT N7 Z490 motherboard (Black), Samsung 970 Evo plus 1TB SSD, NZXT C850 PSU, Hyper 212 EVO cooler (getting new water cooler soon), NZXT H510i case. 

 

My secondary system: Core I7 4820k, 16 gb quad channel 1600mhz ram, GTX 780 reference, Asus PX79LE, SK Hynix GOLD s31 500gb SSD, some 10 yr old Cooler Master 750w psu, Hyper 212, old Cooler Master case.

 

Laptop: Lenovo l380 yoga I5 8250u, 8gb ram, 256gb ssd storage)

 

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Seeing how Apple's M1 chips are doing I would say it's the future. Most likely faster than you will think 

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Is it the future? Sure. Is it the future I want for myself? Nope. Unless I can get performance per core that's better than a Ryzen 5000 series, and more cores, with less heat, then it's absolutely of no interest to me.

 

Please, keep mobile stuff in the mobile space. I like being able to heat my room with my PC in the winter time, thank you very much.

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14 minutes ago, thepoorgamer said:

I don't know. ARM may become common in laptops soon, but I doubt it will be popular in desktops for a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time (due to power efficiency not mattering much for desktop).

yeah wot?

 

Power efficiency goes both ways. 

 

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ARM unlocks higher clocking and higher performance. Desktops have never formally utilised ARM architecture where they have access to wattage and cooling. Their performance could hit a threshold and level out, or their performance will start to thrash the stagnant and archaic x86. 

 

Judging by Apples performance, I'm quite interested in their desktop lineup. Judging by Qualcomm / Microsoft experience, I doubt PC gaming will move over for a while. Until AMD or Intel offer up some performance. However once that happens, ARM is just better in almost everyway.

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17 minutes ago, curiousmind34 said:

x86 is not that power efficient

There were some energy efficient x86 chips in the past. Nowadays most of those are focused on high performance, not battery life, so it's an unfair comparison IMO.

 

18 minutes ago, curiousmind34 said:

lagging behind a bit in the generation to generation performance uplift that apple's arm chips do

But that's exclusive to apples's µArch design, not arm per se. Other ARM-based µArches aren't that fast nor efficient.

 

19 minutes ago, curiousmind34 said:

Do you think there will be a point (and when) where Intel and AMD will stop making x86 chips and start making ARM ones. Are there going to be hybrid chips with a few arm cores and a few x86 cores? Curious what the forum thinks.

AMD had the project K12, which has lead by the famous Jim Keller. Sadly, due to the success that was Zen, it was likely shelved so they could focus on what they had going on. It has meant to be their first stepping stone towards "SkyBridge", a hybrid CPU.

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There have been, in the past, many exciting technologies that showed fantastic promise. For one reason or another, they have all failed.

IMO, the primary reason for failure, is lack of adoption.

No matter how amazing the hardware is, without the software to go with it, it's just a fancy tech demo.

 

Time will tell if ARM takes off. Remember: there are decades of legacy software that may,or may not work on ARM.

Never underestimate the inertia of legacy code.

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The main limitation for RISC architectures, and therefore ARM, in my opinion has been memory. RISC requires faster and more RAM than CISC (aka x86) processors because the machine code for a given program is larger. RISC has much simpler instruction sets than CISC, which uses more specialized instructions, so as stated the required amount of machine code increases to perform a given task.

 

Back when both architectures were originally developed, RAM was not cheap in the usage sense. You had to really optimize your code to use the least amount of RAM since you were so limited. Since CISC uses less RAM than RISC, it made much more sense to use it back then and it has remained the status quo. Nowadays RAM is much more cheap, there is a lot more available and it is a lot faster which is perfect for RISC which has allowed for serious development of processor designs that can begin to rival x86, Apple's M1 for example.

 

I think both have their own uses but the software for RISC is still lagging behind the hardware development so I think it will still be some time before it's able to truly compete but it's getting close. I think it would be interesting to see if a RISC processor would be able to truly compete with the math processing power of AVX instructions eventually.

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4 minutes ago, Sarra said:

Is it the future? Sure. Is it the future I want for myself? Nope. Unless I can get performance per core that's better than a Ryzen 5000 series, and more cores, with less heat, then it's absolutely of no interest to me.

 

Please, keep mobile stuff in the mobile space. I like being able to heat my room with my PC in the winter time, thank you very much.

You would think by the time arm chips would become widespread 16 cores would be normal and devs would multithread most things enough that single core performance would not be such a big deal.

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Just now, curiousmind34 said:

You would think by the time arm chips become widespread 16 cores would be normal and devs would multithread most things enough that single core performance would not be such a big deal.

Yet, here we are, in 2021, more than 10 years after 4C 8T became a thing, and finding games that utilize more than 2 threads is still pretty rare.

 

There will always be instances where single thread performance will be required. Seriously, I love my 12C 24T CPU, and I'm looking at the 16/32 as an upgrade, but only because it doesn't sacrifice single thread performance to achieve the end performance. ARM is literally about the opposite, using multi-thread, multi-core to make up for garbage single thread performance. I still play old games, and on an ARM machine, I'm absolutely sure they will run like molasses that was left in a freezer.

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1 minute ago, curiousmind34 said:

You would think by the time arm chips become widespread 16 cores would be normal and devs would multithread most things enough that single core performance would not be such a big deal.

CPUs with multiple cores have been around for a long time already. The simple truth is that multi-threading stuff is hard, not worth it in a lot of cases and not possible in others. So for some applications single core speed is going to continue to matter.

Remember to either quote or @mention others, so they are notified of your reply

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2 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

CPUs with multiple cores have been around for a long time already. The simple truth is that multi-threading stuff is hard, not worth it in a lot of cases and not possible in others. So for some applications single core speed is going to continue to matter.

And this is why ARM is the future, but not for everyone, everywhere, at all times. 😛

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12 minutes ago, Sarra said:

There will always be instances where single thread performance will be required. Seriously, I love my 12C 24T CPU, and I'm looking at the 16/32 as an upgrade, but only because it doesn't sacrifice single thread performance to achieve the end performance. ARM is literally about the opposite, using multi-thread, multi-core to make up for garbage single thread performance. I still play old games, and on an ARM machine, I'm absolutely sure they will run like molasses that was left in a freezer.

The M1 has demonstrated that ARM could have a much higher IPC than even Zen 3 at low frequency, if an M1 equivalent reaches desktop for the mass market (not just Apple devices) then it could be clocked much higher, though currently for Snapdragon the IPC is about the same as Zen 3 if taking rough numbers into account, I wouldn't want the switch to ARM to happen anytime soon and hopefully not ever, mainly for software backwards compatibility, but it's ignorant to say that it has no potential in single-threaded performance

Quote or Tag people so they know that you've replied.

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17 minutes ago, Sarra said:

ARM is literally about the opposite, using multi-thread, multi-core to make up for garbage single thread performance. I still play old games, and on an ARM machine, I'm absolutely sure they will run like molasses that was left in a freezer.

There are cores with good single thread performance, such as apple's Firestorm and ARM's Neoverse N1.

 

Current high end ARM-based CPUs are pretty much on par with modern x86 µarchs. You can see a simple example here: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=ampere-altra-q80&num=1

 

 

One thing that I can't understand is how you people assume that only a single ISA must survive, why can't they coexist as they do nowadays? Android is happy working on both x86 and ARM, tons of stuff can be easily ported over other arches and using linux on my chromebook feels almost the same as my desktop. The only problem is windows, but shitty software is shitty software and you can't do much about it.

 

24 minutes ago, 2FA said:

I think it would be interesting to see if a RISC processor would be able to truly compete with the math processing power of AVX instructions eventually.

ARM already has NEON and SVE (which already has 512 bit implementations, pretty much like AVX-512).

Personally, I do like such extensions, but they're better suited to a coprocessor IMO.

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Just now, .Apex. said:

The M1 has demonstrated that ARM could have a much higher IPC than even Zen 3 at low frequency

IPC is independent of frequency.

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Just now, igormp said:

IPC is independent of frequency.

I'm aware, I just meant that it is clocked low and has the potential to be clocked way higher

Quote or Tag people so they know that you've replied.

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3 minutes ago, .Apex. said:

I'm aware, I just meant that it is clocked low and has the potential to be clocked way higher

Oh, I see, my bad then.

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The future?

 

Doesn’t ARM already power the main personal computer (the smartphone) of billions of people on this pale blue dot we live on? 

 

Plus their big screen (smart TVs).

 

ARM has been the present of personal computing for 10+ years now.

 

On March 23rd it could land in a consumer desktop (the new iMac). And it could melt faces. We’re almost there. 

 

btw what the heck was the latest tech quickie about Mac vs PC? what dumb framing was saying “most macs in the wild are x86, so we’ll go with that and only marginally mention M1 Macs”? Yeah that’s so useful in 2021 at the verge of the Apple Silicon revolution and with the M1 Air (the laptop most dorm students and the like would be interested in anyway) already on shelves for months...who cares about what’s “in the wild” now, people watch those videos to inform their NEXT purchase...with all due respect for the writers of that techquickie, I don’t know what to make of it...feels like preemptive damage control for the upcoming Apple Silicon macs.. (let’s not kid ourselves, LMG has for obvious reasons an healthy business relationship with a number of PC parts OEMs)

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On 3/12/2021 at 10:28 AM, igormp said:

One thing that I can't understand is how you people assume that only a single ISA must survive, why can't they coexist as they do nowadays?

They can. I would love to see ARM find a place, just not in my own PC.

 

I'd also really like to see a competitor to it (especially one that isn't Apple).

 

That said, I also would never want to purchase a laptop with an ARM CPU in it, unless it had something like Rocket Lake, minus Rocket Lake being facepalmingly bad, overpriced, and just plain desperate.

"Don't fall down the hole!" ~James, 2022

 

"If you have a monitor, look at that monitor with your eyeballs." ~ Jake, 2022

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Right now Apple is pretty much the major Computer maker that is switching over to ARM based CPU/SoC of the own design.

 

It remains to be seen if other Major Vendors will follow suit.

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it is A future, I forsee ARM taking over the laptop space, it will be very many many many years before they make a dent in the desktop space.

🌲🌲🌲

 

 

 

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On 3/12/2021 at 9:59 AM, 2FA said:

The main limitation for RISC architectures, and therefore ARM, in my opinion has been memory. RISC requires faster and more RAM than CISC (aka x86) processors because the machine code for a given program is larger. RISC has much simpler instruction sets than CISC, which uses more specialized instructions, so as stated the required amount of machine code increases to perform a given task.

 

Back when both architectures were originally developed, RAM was not cheap in the usage sense. You had to really optimize your code to use the least amount of RAM since you were so limited. Since CISC uses less RAM than RISC, it made much more sense to use it back then and it has remained the status quo. Nowadays RAM is much more cheap, there is a lot more available and it is a lot faster which is perfect for RISC which has allowed for serious development of processor designs that can begin to rival x86, Apple's M1 for example.

 

I think both have their own uses but the software for RISC is still lagging behind the hardware development so I think it will still be some time before it's able to truly compete but it's getting close. I think it would be interesting to see if a RISC processor would be able to truly compete with the math processing power of AVX instructions eventually.

Internally, high performance “x86” CPUs break down x86 instructions to instructions that are remarkably reminisce of RISC. Intel had done this since the Pentium Pro. On the other end, ARM had increased instructions within their ISA over the years. Both ISAs implement similar techniques to improve performance (pipelining, superscalar execution, OoOE, caches, etc). The performance of ARM’s SVE (the parallel to AVX) will likely be determined by the implementation by ARM themselves, or those with an architecture license. 

My eyes see the past…

My camera lens sees the present…

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50 minutes ago, Arika S said:

it is A future, I forsee ARM taking over the laptop space, it will be very many many many years before they make a dent in the desktop space.

Agreed. It is rather likely that Users will stick to x86-64 CPUs on desktops for at least a few decades to come.

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On 3/12/2021 at 12:36 PM, curiousmind34 said:

x86 is not that power efficient and has been lagging behind a bit in the generation to generation performance uplift that apple's arm chips do. Do you think there will be a point (and when) where Intel and AMD will stop making x86 chips and start making ARM ones. Are there going to be hybrid chips with a few arm cores and a few x86 cores? Curious what the forum thinks.

ARM wont replace x86 any time soon. The biggest issue is Microsoft. They have the largest software library known to man, BUT practically it all runs on x86. Microsoft has tried to build a comparability layer in their ARM version of Windows, but it was kinda made of suck and fail the last I read. No where even close to Rossetta 2 used by Apple. 

 

Considering the US Navy had lots of software that was stuck on XP, and had to pay Microsoft to continue supporting it. Microsoft has no easy way to move users to ARM. Cant really tell big corporations your no longer going to support x86. Because if they did that, what's to stop them from going to Linux? I mean if they have to rewrite software they might look at new OS's. I think Microsoft's approach is to release a few ARM devices here and there. With the hopes that devs will support the platform. When enough devs get on board then they can release more "Serious" ARM devices. 

 

On the other side I know they are pushing ARM in the data center. Due to the power efficiencies and potential savings on energy. So if ARM is very successful there, then we might see a bigger push in the desktop market. The one thing you have to keep in mind is that changes in tech like this take decades. I mean look at when IPv6 was released. Windows 2000 had support for it. We are just starting to see ISP's invest in it. Some times changes of this scale just take a lot of time. 

I just want to sit back and watch the world burn. 

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