Apple ARM is superior?

[Pc6777]

then I will always use desktops mainly and maybe laptops also but just for portability. I feel like apples cores are like a train that can handle instructions that are less Radom and coded directly for the cores better. sure its "faster" but its limited and needs to be coded for the cores. desktop cpus are like a car, they can go anywhere and do anything unlike a train that only stops at certain places and can only handle certain instructions that are made for it. so deskop cpus are "slower" in that regard. like the bullet train in japan is fast as hell, but you can only get off at certain stops and go certain places, a car can go anywhere and is more free and more things are accessible with a car. 

[himynameisryan21]

23 hours ago, emosun said:

 aren't much faster in similar tasks i wouldn't consider them that far ahead.

They absolutely destroy anything else in h.265 4:2:2 video editing. even threadripper builds or the maxed out mac pro can't play it back smoothly. the macbook air can (but obv not the eor r5 or sony a1 8k footage, that can be handled by the macbook pro)

that's cause any other GPUs and CPUs out there only have h.265 4:2:0 encode and decode ad lack 4:2:2

or at least as of two months ago

 

But, not everyone video edits and very few of those people have sony a7siii/a1 or canon eos r5 footage so it's a pretty niche problem

Edited February 16, 2021 by ryan_lennoxbradley
A correction

[saltycaramel]

 

MacMini M1: the ultimate SFF pc

 

also drawing at max less than the custom PC at idle 

 

also it’ll be interesting to see the next 2-3 years of pandemic prices for PC parts make Macs a more and more interesting value proposition (assuming Apple + TSMC have their supply chain act together better than the rest of the industry)

[papajo]

1 hour ago, saltycaramel said:

 

MacMini M1: the ultimate SFF pc

 

also drawing at max less than the custom PC at idle 

 

also it’ll be interesting to see the next 2-3 years of pandemic prices for PC parts make Macs a more and more interesting value proposition (assuming Apple + TSMC have their supply chain act together better than the rest of the industry)

Watch the video again lol the mac mini got shredded

[RejZoR]

30 minutes ago, papajo said:

Watch the video again lol the mac mini got shredded

Wow, a system that costs over 2x as much and is like 10x larger totally shreds it. Um, okay... That's like arguing Volvo A45G totally shreds Ford F150 at carrying capacity. No shit Sherlock.

[papajo]

1 minute ago, RejZoR said:

Wow, a system that costs over 2x as much and is like 10x larger totally shreds it. Um, okay... That's like arguing Volvo A45G totally shreds Ford F150 at carrying capacity. No shit Sherlock.

Its cheaper but yea it is larger but still slick last but not least apple people are the ones trying to get into our faces that we live in the stone age..  taste some stone

[saltycaramel]

45 minutes ago, papajo said:

Watch the video again lol the mac mini got shredded

There’s a part where he says that’s the best machine in that compact form factor.

There’s no denying that in terms of

- performance per liter of volume

- performance per watt

- performance per dollar

 

it’s on another level and it’s a really-small-form-factor-PC lovers’ dream

 

Now, if the GPU in the coming years will get the kind of yearly improvement we see on iPhones and iPads...it could become something... (of course you still wouldn’t be able to swap it out like on a custom PC)

[papajo]

17 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

There’s a part where he says that’s the best machine in that compact form factor.

There’s no denying that in terms of

- performance per liter of volume

- performance per watt

- performance per dollar

 

it’s on another level and it’s a really-small-form-factor-PC lovers’ dream

 

Now, if the GPU in the coming years will get the kind of yearly improvement we see on iPhones and iPads...it could become something... (of course you still wouldn’t be able to swap it out like on a custom PC)

ok I guess blind people can not see...

 

It is slower in everything not just in the Graphics department. 

 

and you can make a very small factor zen 3 

 

as for the price it may hold true only including the recent events that skyrocketed prices with older prices or MSRP in mind thats not true at all

 

 

[RejZoR]

1 hour ago, papajo said:

Its cheaper but yea it is larger but still slick last but not least apple people are the ones trying to get into our faces that we live in the stone age..  taste some stone

I'm using 5800X and I still acknowledge how impressive M1 is...

[Sauron]

On 2/15/2021 at 2:04 AM, Hawkeye27 said:

ARM, when Apple first decided to start using it, had really crappy memory bandwidth, and no ability to engage in out of order execution of instructions, and a very bad GPU.

"ARM" is not an SoC or a silicon manufacturer so this statement doesn't mean anything. There are a huge variety of ARM implementations and while Apple was the first to release a product with some features like the 64-bit extensions they were only first by a matter of weeks, with the standard having been defined by ARM and therefore being available to everyone else at roughly the same time.

 

The part about the GPU definitely doesn't make any sense since other manufacturers (namely, uh, nvidia) have produced plenty ARM SoCs with high performance GPUs throughout the years, often outperforming Apple, and the GPU itself isn't really tied to ARM.

18 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

And it’s gonna be glorious if we extrapolate current performance-per-watt to a desktop thermal envelope. 

Yeah but you can't do that. A lot of what makes the M1 fast relies on it being a tightly integrated SoC as well as the dedicated FPGA. Adding cores is definitely going to improve performance in some areas, in which competitors like AMD currently have it beat by the way, but not in others. Anything that relies on the coprocessors is going to be mostly unaffected by increases in clock speed or core count and adapting it for desktop use might require a lot of changes to the design to accomodate for things like external graphics cards or expandable memory.

[Nena Trinity]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8o3_tp3ums

Disclaimer: May be slightly biased  

[WhitetailAni]

1 hour ago, papajo said:

ok I guess blind people can not see...

No duh.

1 hour ago, papajo said:

It is slower in everything not just in the Graphics department. 

Slower compared to that. Is it slower compared to a mini PC, or a Core i3, or a Pentium, or a Celeron?

1 hour ago, papajo said:

and you can make a very small factor zen 3 

Like in the Velkase Velka 3?
Yeah, but it's a lot easier to just buy a computer preassembled then struggle with SFF PC building.

1 hour ago, papajo said:

as for the price it may hold true only including the recent events that skyrocketed prices with older prices or MSRP in mind thats not true at all

Do you have proof of that? The M1 Mac Mini's MSRP is $699. I'd like to see you try and build a PC that outperforms it in the same form factor for that price, based off of MSRP prices.

[igormp]

12 hours ago, Pc6777 said:

then I will always use desktops mainly and maybe laptops also but just for portability. I feel like apples cores are like a train that can handle instructions that are less Radom and coded directly for the cores better. sure its "faster" but its limited and needs to be coded for the cores. desktop cpus are like a car, they can go anywhere and do anything unlike a train that only stops at certain places and can only handle certain instructions that are made for it. so deskop cpus are "slower" in that regard. like the bullet train in japan is fast as hell, but you can only get off at certain stops and go certain places, a car can go anywhere and is more free and more things are accessible with a car. 

No, that's not the case. Apple's M1 is a generic CPU like the one found in your desktop, with some extra dedicated chips for some specific tasks (like video decoding/encoding).

 

12 minutes ago, Sauron said:

A lot of what makes the M1 fast relies on it being a tightly integrated SoC as well as the dedicated FPGA.

Just a minor nitpick: the M1 has no fpga built in, instead it has proper fixed-function coprocessors.

[Spindel]

13 minutes ago, FakeKGB said:

Do you have proof of that? The M1 Mac Mini's MSRP is $699. I'd like to see you try and build a PC that outperforms it in the same form factor for that price, based off of MSRP prices.

That's generous towards the PC since the M1 Mini could most probably be about half the volume it currently is.

[WhitetailAni]

Just now, Spindel said:

That's generous towards the PC since the M1 Mini could most probably be about half the volume it currently is.

Hey - he wanted to operate off of MSRP, he can operate off of MSRP.

[Sauron]

11 minutes ago, igormp said:

Just a minor nitpick: the M1 has no fpga built in, instead it has proper fixed-function coprocessors.

I thought I remembered them marketing a dynamically reprogrammable fpga...?

18 minutes ago, FakeKGB said:

Do you have proof of that? The M1 Mac Mini's MSRP is $699. I'd like to see you try and build a PC that outperforms it in the same form factor for that price, based off of MSRP prices.

Damn, are you saying a hobbyist working with standard off-the-shelf components can't make a computer that is as small as a model from an OEM that can get a custom PCB and chassis made according to their spec? Incredible, such a revolutionary achievement from Apple...

[igormp]

2 minutes ago, Sauron said:

I thought I remembered them marketing a dynamically reprogrammable fpga...?

21 minutes ago, FakeKGB said:

I guess you might be confusing with some other marketing news haha

[WhitetailAni]

1 minute ago, Sauron said:

Damn, are you saying a hobbyist working with standard off-the-shelf components can't make a computer that is as small as a model from an OEM that can get a custom PCB and chassis made according to their spec? Incredible, such a revolutionary achievement from Apple...

No, but there's similarly sized cases, such as the Velkase Velka 3:

https://www.velkase.com/products/velka-3
The ITX A60 Black:
https://www.inter-tech.de/en/products/case/mini-itx-nuc/itx-a60-black

And probably a few others.

[Bombastinator]

3 hours ago, papajo said:

Watch the video again lol the mac mini got shredded

Didn’t have to watch the video to see that.  Running an 8gb machine with internal graphics against a 16gb machine with a discrete card it’s not a question of shredded it’s a question of how shredded.  I stopped watching when narrator said the memory on the Mac mini could be upgraded.  This is wrong.  Memory on m1 macs is internal to the cpu.  You want more memory you need a different cpu. 

[Sauron]

16 minutes ago, FakeKGB said:

No, but there's similarly sized cases, such as the Velkase Velka 3:

https://www.velkase.com/products/velka-3
The ITX A60 Black:
https://www.inter-tech.de/en/products/case/mini-itx-nuc/itx-a60-black

And probably a few others.

You're missing the point. I can't just go and slap a laptop form factor graphics card on a mini-itx build or have it built in to the processor on request. The only direct comparison you coud make is with a NUC but those haven't been updated in a while. The mac mini isn't competing against anything, it occupies its own market space. If for some reason you must have a very small desktop with reasonable performance then you can't really get anything else.

 

I question why anyone would have that kind of space restriction and not just go for a laptop though... perhaps there's a reason nobody else makes something like that. Intel tried and clearly it went nowhere, even though when they came out NUCs were significantly faster than the mac mini of the time. I think the only allure of the mac mini is that it's the cheapest mac, with the form factor being nice but ultimately irrelevant in the costumer's choice.

[WhitetailAni]

Just now, Sauron said:

You're missing the point. I can't just go and slap a laptop form factor graphics card on a mini-itx build or have it built in to the processor on request. The only direct comparison you coud make is with a NUC but those haven't been updated in a while. The mac mini isn't competing against anything, it occupies its own market space. If for some reason you must have a very small desktop with reasonable performance then you can't really get anything else.

 

I question why anyone would have that kind of space restriction and not just go for a laptop though... perhaps there's a reason nobody else makes something like that. Intel tried and clearly it went nowhere, even though when they came out NUCs were significantly faster than the mac mini of the time. I think the only allure of the mac mini is that it's the cheapest mac, with the form factor being nice but ultimately irrelevant in the costumer's choice.

That's the point I'm trying to make to @papajo- while you can make a better PC with the same price point, what you can't do is make it in the same size.

[Sauron]

2 minutes ago, FakeKGB said:

That's the point I'm trying to make to @papajo- while you can make a better PC with the same price point, what you can't do is make it in the same size.

Yeah but it's a meaningless point, the vast majority of people considering one of those options have all the space they need to accomodate a small form factor custom desktop. To me this is no different than saying you can build a better PC at the same price point but it won't have an Apple logo on it; it's true but it's mostly irrelevant.

[Bombastinator]

5 minutes ago, Sauron said:

You're missing the point. I can't just go and slap a laptop form factor graphics card on a mini-itx build or have it built in to the processor on request. The only direct comparison you coud make is with a NUC but those haven't been updated in a while. The mac mini isn't competing against anything, it occupies its own market space. If for some reason you must have a very small desktop with reasonable performance then you can't really get anything else.

 

I question why anyone would have that kind of space restriction and not just go for a laptop though... perhaps there's a reason nobody else makes something like that. Intel tried and clearly it went nowhere, even though when they came out NUCs were significantly faster than the mac mini of the time. I think the only allure of the mac mini is that it's the cheapest mac, with the form factor being nice but ultimately irrelevant in the costumer's choice.

Mini has one thing that can be but isn’t always an advantage over a laptop:  separate screen.  You can get a big big screen and place it ergonomically. 

[igormp]

4 minutes ago, Sauron said:

I question why anyone would have that kind of space restriction and not just go for a laptop though

From what I've seen, those people have enough space for a monitor + peripherals, but no actual space for the pc case itself. Something like a mac mini is really easy to tuck behind the monitor or leave at the desk corner without using much space.

 

With a laptop you would need to choose between having no peripherals (as in, just using the laptop in the table with its tiny screen), or needing enough space to have laptop + peripherals (and a mac mini would need less space in this scenario while being faster).

[emosun]

13 hours ago, ryan_lennoxbradley said:

They absolutely destroy anything else in h.265 4:2:2 video editing. even threadripper builds or the maxed out mac pro can't play it back smoothly. the macbook air can (but obv not the eor r5 or sony a1 8k footage, that can be handled by the macbook pro)

that's cause any other GPUs and CPUs out there only have h.265 4:2:0 encode and decode ad lack 4:2:2

or at least as of two months ago

this is considerably contrived , i'm not sure i'll change my stance at all as far as what I previously said going forward.