Jump to content

Apple ARM is superior?

Hawkeye27
5 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Mini has one thing that can be but isn’t always an advantage over a laptop:  separate screen.  You can get a big big screen and place it ergonomically. 

2 minutes ago, igormp said:

From what I've seen, those people have enough space for a monitor + peripherals, but no actual space for the pc case itself. Something like a mac mini is really easy to tuck behind the monitor or leave at the desk corner without using much space.

 

I just keep my desktop under my desk. Not sure why anyone would be in a position where they can't do the same but also don't need to carry their machine around. There may be some very specific edge cases but they're far from the majority. Can't even really argue based on port accessibility since the mac mini barely has any in the first place and they're all on the back so you'd likely be using an external hub anyway.

 

Not that it isn't nice to have it be small but... I struggle to think of a situation where it's a requirement. If you are in such a position then I guess you have no choice but otherwise I just can't recommend it.

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

sudo chmod -R 000 /*

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Sauron said:

I just keep my desktop under my desk. Not sure why anyone would be in a position where they can't do the same but also don't need to carry their machine around. There may be some very specific edge cases but they're far from the majority. Can't even really argue based on port accessibility since the mac mini barely has any in the first place and they're all on the back so you'd likely be using an external hub anyway.

 

Not that it isn't nice to have it be small but... I struggle to think of a situation where it's a requirement. If you are in such a position then I guess you have no choice but otherwise I just can't recommend it.

IMO, other than looks that some people strive for, the ITX and mac mini crowd are just a niche, but still do exist nevertheless.

 

I also keep my desktop under my desk, but because it's large enough that it's a good 1 meter away from my feet. I know people with smaller desks that would keep kicking the desktop all the time if they had one.

FX6300 @ 4.2GHz | Gigabyte GA-78LMT-USB3 R2 | Hyper 212x | 3x 8GB + 1x 4GB @ 1600MHz | Gigabyte 2060 Super | Corsair CX650M | LG 43UK6520PSA
ASUS X550LN | i5 4210u | 12GB
Lenovo N23 Yoga

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

Theyre called desktops because back in the day they were designed to be used as monitor supports and sat on the desk top. PCs don’t do that anymore Rand cases are often built in such a way as precludes it.  Apple was around before PCs though.  You can put a Mack mini on your desktop and it will support a monitor.

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Apple was around before PCs though.

...no...?

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

sudo chmod -R 000 /*

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Sauron said:

...no...?

Not sure if that was sarcastic or not.  I’m going to go with not because if it was meant as sarcastic answering in this manner is annoying.  Long before PCs Apple was 8 bit originally. At least their hot selling stuff.  I don’t know much about the apple1.  IBM PCs which all PCs spring from was 16 bit. People started setting their machines sideways and putting them other places than the desk because they got ridiculously large.  A pcAT was similar in volume to a minitower or small mid tower.  This is actually better for some who don’t have desks that will support machines and worse for others who don’t t have space under or beside their desk to put a machine.

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Not sure if that was sarcastic or not.  I’m going to go with not because if it was meant as sarcastic answering in this manner is annoying.  Long before PCs Apple was 8 bit originally. At least their hot selling stuff.  I don’t know much about the apple1.  IBM PCs which all PCs spring from was 16 bit. People started setting their machines sideways and putting them other places than the desk because they got ridiculously large.  A pcAT was similar in volume to a minitower or small mid tower.  This is actually better for some who don’t have desks that will support machines and worse for others who don’t t have space under or beside their desk to put a machine.

What about the 8-bit machines, such as the Commodore 64, VIC-20, Atari systems, etc.?
They weren't called PC's then, but they are Personal Computers.

elephants

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, FakeKGB said:

What about the 8-bit machines, such as the Commodore 64, VIC-20, Atari systems, etc.?
They weren't called PC's then, but they are Personal Computers.

An old argument.  Also rainbows and sparcs and whatnot. There is personal computer and PC.  A PC as I am using it is a particular design of personal computer created by IBM.  The IBM PC.  IBM is no longer the major manufacturer of them though so the IBM bit has been dropped.

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just now, Bombastinator said:

Also rainbows and sparcs and whatnot.

No idea what that is.

Just now, Bombastinator said:

There is personal computer and PC.

The same thing - PC = Personal Computer.

1 minute ago, Bombastinator said:

A PC as I am using it is a particular design of personal computer created by IBM.

The 16-bit ones that had 8088's and 286's?

elephants

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Long before PCs Apple was 8 bit originally. At least their hot selling stuff.  I don’t know much about the apple1.

Then maybe you should google it, it took me 2 minutes to find out the first "personal computer" came out a few years before the apple I (not to mention the apple I was itself a PC by definition).

20 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

A PC as I am using it is a particular design of personal computer created by IBM.  The IBM PC.

Perhaps you should use the definition everyone else uses and not the one you made up. Modern PCs have no more in common with the IBM PC than they do with anything Apple made around that time. I'm also not sure what Apple being "around" a couple of years before the IBM PC has to do with anything we talked about in this thread.

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

sudo chmod -R 000 /*

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Then maybe you should google it, it took me 2 minutes to find out the first "personal computer" came out a few years before the apple I (not to mention the apple I was itself a PC by definition).

Perhaps you should use the definition everyone else uses and not the one you made up. Modern PCs have no more in common with the IBM PC than they do with anything Apple made around that time. I'm also not sure what Apple being "around" a couple of years before the IBM PC has to do with anything we talked about in this thread.

It’s not one I made up though.  It’s the normal one.  So common it was actually used in the “I’m a Mac I’m a pc” ad campaign.

 

are you talking about the Altair?  That thing wasn’t even useful for anything.  It’s I/o was a row of switches.

2 minutes ago, FakeKGB said:

In the ads made Apple, who would want to put themselves in a favorable light.

Here's a few:

 

Yeah.  I saw them on tv when they came out. 

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just now, Bombastinator said:

So common it was actually used in the “I’m a Mac I’m a pc” ad campaign.

In the ads made Apple, who would want to put themselves in a favorable light.

Here's a few:

 

elephants

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, FakeKGB said:

In the ads made Apple, who would want to put themselves in a favorable light.

Here's a few:

 

Let me be real clear:  yer gonna lose this one.  The whole “personal computer PC” thing is a 30 year old argument.   One I lived through.  I got to see really large sections of it.  Google is historical searching.  There’s no breadth.  The term personal computer existed before PC but they weren’t CALLED   PCs the were called personal computers.  When IBM came out with their personal computer they labeled it “PC” a PC is a type of personal computer. The issue now is even though there were dozens of types of personal computers, these days there are really only two popular ones left:  Mac and PC.  There are still others of course.  Linux CAN run on the same hardware as PC, the atx system, but it doesn’t HAVE to I’m not sure if risc5 uses atx or not.  One could build a risc5 personal computer without great difficulty.  People use rasberry Pi’s as personal computers with some frequency.

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just now, Bombastinator said:

Let me be real clear:  yer gonna lose this one.  The whole “personal computer PC” thing is a 30 year old argument.   One I lived through.  I got to see really large sections of it.  Google is historical searching.  There’s no breadth.  The term personal computer existed before PC but they weren’t CALLED   PCs the were called personal computers.  When IBM came out with their personal computer they labeled it “PC” a PC is a type of personal computer. The issue now is even though there were dozens of types of personal computers, these days there are really only two popular ones left:  Mac and PC.  There are still others of course.  Linux CAN run on the same hardware as PC, the atx system, but it doesn’t HAVE to I’m not sure if risc5 uses atx or not.  One could build a risc5 personal computer without great difficulty.  People use rasberry Pi’s as personal computers with some frequency.

Let me get this straight.

PC, which stands for Personal Computer, is different than a personal computer because of the letter capitalization.

elephants

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, FakeKGB said:

Let me get this straight.

PC, which stands for Personal Computer, is different than a personal computer because of the letter capitalization.

Yep.  Mostly because it was specifically a brand name. Created by IBM.  What made the thing unusual, and which created the entire PC industry, is that quite unusually. IBM did not own the OS, and used off the shelf parts.  The only thing they owned was the bios.  there was a massive drive to create a work-alike bios through reverse engineering creating the “ibm compatible” a PC. That wasn’t an IBM PC. These days all PCs are ibm compatibles vs IBM PCs because IBM quit making PCs long ago.  They even stopped using their own bios before they did. My first computer (not the first one I used, the first one I owned) was a Sanyo mbc555. One of the early attempts to make a compatible.  It was less than perfect.  They did the reverse engineering but they did it badly.  The video memory was in the wrong place, and as a result while it would output text it couldn’t do graphics at all.  There was this thing called a”lotus board” that moved the video memory to the right place
 

 It’s a problem like some parts of the US refer to all soft drinks as “coke”.

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

More or less yes.

 

Apple's ARM silicon is currently superior to anyone else's on the market. 

Phone 1 (Daily Driver): Samsung Galaxy Z Fold2 5G

Phone 2 (Work): Samsung Galaxy S21 Ultra 5G 256gb

Laptop 1 (Production): 16" MBP2019, i7, 5500M, 32GB DDR4, 2TB SSD

Laptop 2 (Gaming): Toshiba Qosmio X875, i7 3630QM, GTX 670M, 16GB DDR3

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

So common it was actually used in the “I’m a Mac I’m a pc” ad campaign.

That used "PC" to refer to computers running Windows and it ran some 30 years after the IBM PC came out, after IBM had already sold its personal computer division to Lenovo... so no, it's not the definition people use to refer to anything around the time of the original IBM PC.

 

Also here's the actual definition, regardless of capitalization. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/personal-computer

 

Also you still haven't explained what this has to do with Apple selling a small form factor desktop.

2 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

 It’s a problem like some parts of the US refer to all soft drinks as “coke”.

What you're doing right now is akin to saying "chicken" actually refers to a specific mcdonald's trademark because it's part of the name "McChicken".

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

sudo chmod -R 000 /*

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to mention that while the new M1 CPUs are fast and pretty innovative, one big reason for macOS being fast with them is that for some reason it overuses swap.

It overuses swap so much.

Oh god make it stopimage.thumb.png.75b1afc30dd0f4b6251d30c590b6e817.png

Ryzen 7 3700X / 16GB RAM / Optane SSD / GTX 1650 / Solus Linux

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Sauron said:

That used "PC" to refer to computers running Windows and it ran some 30 years after the IBM PC came out, after IBM had already sold its personal computer division to Lenovo... so no, it's not the definition people use to refer to anything around the time of the original IBM PC.

 

Also here's the actual definition, regardless of capitalization. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/personal-computer

 

Also you still haven't explained what this has to do with Apple selling a small form factor desktop.

What you're doing right now is akin to saying "chicken" actually refers to a specific mcdonald's trademark because it's part of the name "McChicken".

This is the problem with examples.  They’re never perfect.  One can take a different feature of the example than the one intended and use it to attack the original point. 
 

the first argument that the advertisement happened too late suffers from does not follow fallacy.  The dictionary definition is for personal computer not “PC”. The definition of personal computer has beaver been debated.  The question is whether “PC” means personal computer or a specific kind of personal computer.  
 

As to what it has to do with Apple and the Mac mini I vaguely recall (though I suppose it could be followed through the thread)it more or less not.  The conversation turned to the definition of the term.  That sort of thing tends. To happen with threads.  Would the Mac mini be considered a “PC”? It runs programs designed for windows so I suppose it might be.  This point about topicality is actually imho the most salient one very much like the “McChicken” thing which was not.

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, NunoLava1998 said:

I'd like to mention that while the new M1 CPUs are fast and pretty innovative, one big reason for macOS being fast with them is that for some reason it overuses swap.

It overuses swap so much.

Oh god make it stopimage.thumb.png.75b1afc30dd0f4b6251d30c590b6e817.png

I’ve seen this referred to as “abuse of swap” but I don’t understand how this could make something fast.  Swap has a rep for being incredibly slow.   Did it do it by forcing the other app to use swap thus making itself look fast I. Comparison?

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

I’ve seen this referred to as “abuse of swap” but I don’t understand how this could make something fast.  Swap has a rep for being incredibly slow.   Did it do it by forcing the other app to use swap thus making itself look fast I. Comparison?

I'm not really sure, I've just read a lot of reports saying that macOS uses a lot of swap on M1 Macs for some reason.

If you do a decent amount of productivity, you could use 1-2TB disk per day, which is absolutely insane. On a 250GB drive that's 4~8 DWPD.

Good thing seems to be that the SSD endurance on M1 Macs is also ridiculously high, but that's not really confirmed; it's just what SMART data tells you

Ryzen 7 3700X / 16GB RAM / Optane SSD / GTX 1650 / Solus Linux

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, NunoLava1998 said:

I'd like to mention that while the new M1 CPUs are fast and pretty innovative, one big reason for macOS being fast with them is that for some reason it overuses swap.

It overuses swap so much.

Oh god make it stopimage.thumb.png.75b1afc30dd0f4b6251d30c590b6e817.png

It doesn't make the applications themselves go fast, but it makes the overall system feel snappier when you have tons of stuff open. That's why you see many people claiming that 8gb feels like as having 16gb on a Windows PC, because they abuse the swap a lot (and coupled with their blazing fast SSDs, it does work most of the time).

FX6300 @ 4.2GHz | Gigabyte GA-78LMT-USB3 R2 | Hyper 212x | 3x 8GB + 1x 4GB @ 1600MHz | Gigabyte 2060 Super | Corsair CX650M | LG 43UK6520PSA
ASUS X550LN | i5 4210u | 12GB
Lenovo N23 Yoga

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just now, Bombastinator said:

This is the problem with examples.  They’re never perfect.  One can take a different feature of the example than the one intended and use it to attack the original point. 

Only if that example doesn't actually support your point like in this case.

1 minute ago, Bombastinator said:

The dictionary definition is for personal computer not “PC”.

Excuse me? Did you even bother to open the link?

image.thumb.png.569022c9794cbb4ec919002e9dc6b96a.png

2 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

The conversation turned to the definition of the term.  That sort of thing tends. To happen with threads

It happens when you make a statement that is just wrong and then start arguing definitions because you can't bring yourself to admit it or at least explain what point you were trying to make with that incorrect statement.

4 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Would the Mac mini be considered a “PC”?

Yes. If a Dell laptop is a "PC" then so is the Mac Mini. A PC is still a PC regardless of what operating system it runs because the term just refers to a computer that is practical for personal use. Just because in one ad campaign from Apple they used "PC" just to refer to Windows computers doesn't mean that's what the term means now. A PC is not any less of a PC just because it's running macOS or Linux. Windows didn't even exist when the IBM PC came out and yet you claim that is your point of reference so clearly you didn't accept that definition either...

 

I could have just ignored it you had used it just to refer to Windows computers because it's a relatively common colloquial use of the word, but your sentence wouldn't have made any sense in that context.

8 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

This point about topicality is actually imho the most salient one very much like the “McChicken” thing which was not.

Still waiting for you to explain how it's different. You literally took a common use word out of a trademark and claimed it specifically referred to that trademark.

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

sudo chmod -R 000 /*

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, NunoLava1998 said:

I'm not really sure, I've just read a lot of reports saying that macOS uses a lot of swap on M1 Macs for some reason.

If you do a decent amount of productivity, you could use 1-2TB disk per day, which is absolutely insane. On a 250GB drive that's 4~8 DWPD.

Good thing seems to be that the SSD endurance on M1 Macs is also ridiculously high, but that's not really confirmed; it's just what SMART data tells you

Ah.  So the problem is it’s VERY hard on SSDs.  That could be an issue because Apple has a habit of requiring that only IT’S branded SSDs be used which are extremely expensive.  I wonder if the move from HDD to SSD changed the ratio of what should or should not be done with swap.  As a recently written thing this could be something we see a LOT of in general in the future

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just now, Bombastinator said:

Ah.  So the problem is it’s VERY hard on SSDs.  That could be an issue because Apple has a habit of requiring that only IT’S branded SSDs be used which are extremely expensive.  I wonder if the move from HDD to SSD changed the ratio of what should or should not be done with swap.  As a recently written thing this could be something we see a LOT of in general in the future

This seems to be M1-specific from what I've seen though.. Intel Macs (even with SSDs) swap a lot, but they're usually much more conservative doing it than M1 Macs.

Also, the SSD (and pretty much everything else) is soldered onto the board, so if the SSD goes out, your system becomes e-waste. Can't even worry about buying apple-branded SSDs when you can't upgrade them in the first place

Ryzen 7 3700X / 16GB RAM / Optane SSD / GTX 1650 / Solus Linux

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, NunoLava1998 said:

I'm not really sure, I've just read a lot of reports saying that macOS uses a lot of swap on M1 Macs for some reason.

The M1 uses a tiered memory system ("unified memory") and shares its already limited RAM with the GPU so it's possible swap is just used more aggressively to compensate.

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

sudo chmod -R 000 /*

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.


×