This is why so many people have swastikas on their car Linus.

[olofpunk]

 
First and foremost i will drop in a link so you can get a better idea of what a Swastika is and why you should educate yourself more before asking that question. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

Now dont auto-delete this please as it has nothing to do with Hitler or what he did.

Swastika's been widely used for more than a couple millennium as a symbol of peace and good luck in various religions from Jainism, Buddhism to Hinduism etc. A lot of Indians use this symbol to mark objects that they want to last long and to keep them safe. We have it on cars, bikes, doors, temples, walls, computers and a lot of other objects as is our tradition to pray and thank for the opportunity to have that object in our possession. 

What you should have asked and what a lot of people should be asking and educating themselves about it "why would people want a Hakenkreuz on their cars?" 

Hakenkreuz is what the nazi symbol was called even by hitler himself. So maybe use the proper term and please do not further spread the hate for a symbol that is 20 fold older than hitler and has a pure meaning to it. 
Now i can understand why you wouldn't have known about it or why you didn't think of looking up on it as that's what you've always been taught and you being from the opposite side of the world gives you no opportunity or exposure to the actual meaning of the symbol.

We have had enough of this, people calling out "swastika bad" on public forums is no longer acceptable and we want you to use the proper term for what you actually are referring to. I believe a lot of other people will agree with me and a lot of other people who are aware of the actual meaning behind the symbol feel the same.

Thank you for reading this and i couldn't resist letting it go this time so apologies if it felt to aggressive. You have over 11 million people following you and you have the responsibility to give them proper information. 

[Volbet]

I guess Hitler called it a Hakenkreuz because that's the German word for the swastika. Last time I checked, they don't speak German in Canada, and it's therefor accurate to call the symbol a swastika not matter the intention of its usage. 

[olofpunk]

2 minutes ago, Volbet said:

I guess Hitler called it a Hakenkreuz because that's the German word for the swastika. Last time I checked, they don't speak German in Canada, and it's therefor accurate to call the symbol a swastika not matter the intention of its usage. 

Hakenkreuz is what hitler called it and he meant his version of the symbol at the time last time i checked there was no canadian hitler that Linus might have been trying to referring to with the canadian version of a word.

[olofpunk]

1 minute ago, VegetableStu said:

as much as the symbol itself originated earlier from the german atrocities, it is not something you want to show around in any orientation around germans and survivors of the holocaust. we tend to recognise symbols and imagery first before knowing the name for them, and frankly this misappropriation is unfortunate (and so are those who had the last name of hitler long before... Hitler)

 

yes it's bad, and also yes it's a symbol of good meaning elsewhere. know where, when and how to navigate around its use

 

also personally from now on i'll use "hakenkreuz" or "haken cross" to refer to the symbol used by the reich. thanks for informing

Thank you for understanding and i totally understand what you're saying. I agree but i really feel offended when people publicly call out swastika for something it isnt. I have been taught a different meaning of it as i grew up. And i will never use it where it's irrelevant. I just wanted to let linus know why so many people use a swastika on their car. 

he would be surprised how many people on the other half of the world use swastika on a number of objects. Thanks for understanding.

[olofpunk]

11 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

take note that in english of various regions (almost globally), that shape is more commonly known as the "swastika". not all german words/terms made it to the english dictionary (i'm looking at you, "schadenfreude")

 

also linus is probably referring to those who use it as a display of (... preference? allegiance?) for the american confederacy (in context of the region where that news topic is coming from)

 

otherwise, i get where you're coming from. just expect to understand others while expecting others to understand you

I get what you're trying to say but his audience isnt just from the west. And it doesn't really take much to say "Why would people have Hakenkreuz on their cars over here?". If "swastika bad" i dont see people cancelling Charlie Chaplin for having the same mustache.

[Volbet]

19 minutes ago, olofpunk said:

Hakenkreuz is what hitler called it and he meant his version of the symbol at the time last time i checked there was no canadian hitler that Linus might have been trying to referring to with the canadian version of a word.

No, Hitler meant the symbol overall. 

A lot of the mysticism of the Third Reich was taken from Indo-European tradition, and that's why the swastika was adopted. Even before Hitler the German word for the swastika was the Hakenkreuz. 

Like, I get what you're saying, but it's literally just a language difference. 

[lewdicrous]

Same name, same shape.

Different orientation, different meaning.

[olofpunk]

14 minutes ago, Volbet said:

No, Hitler meant the symbol overall. 

A lot of the mysticism of the Third Reich was taken from Indo-European tradition, and that's why the swastika was adopted. Even before Hitler the German word for the swastika was the Hakenkreuz. 

Like, I get what you're saying, but it's literally just a language difference. 

I dont think you're getting what I am trying to say. So you think using Hakenkreuz to refer to something that happened in Germany shouldn't be a thing and people should continue spreading hate for something that overall have carried a way different meaning and still carries it for billions of people? 

Hakenkreuz does exactly what it should. It narrows it down to what happened in germany.  

(How convenient when it's not something from your culture that is being cancelled.)

[Volbet]

24 minutes ago, olofpunk said:

I dont think you're getting what I am trying to say. So you think using Hakenkreuz to refer to something that happened in Germany shouldn't be a thing and people should continue spreading hate for something that overall have carried a way different meaning and still carries it for billions of people? 

(How convenient when it's not something from your culture that is being cancelled.)

No, I think you should user the word that refer to phenomenon within the language that you're using to communicate. At least for the time being

If LTT had been based in Quebec they should refer to it as a "svastika" and had they been based in Denmark they should refer to it as "hagekors". 

All these words describe the same symbol. 

 

See, you're absolutely correct that the swastika has been used within cultures for millennia prior to the Third Reich. I'll give you that wholeheartedly. 

But what I don't get is why your cultural connotations to the symbol takes precedent to the connotation the symbol has in the West. Prior to the Third Reich there wasn't really a connotation to the swastika outside of select mystical circles. 

 

I get what you wanna do, but trying to make an ahistorical distinction between swastika and hakenkreuz is not going to cut it. Educating people in different connotation might help .

[olofpunk]

9 minutes ago, Volbet said:

See, you're absolutely correct that the swastika has been used within cultures for millennia prior to the Third Reich. I'll give you that wholeheartedly. 

But What I don't get is why your cultural connotations to the symbol takes precedent to the connotation the symbol has in the West. Prior to the Third Reich there wasn't really a connotation to the swastika outside of select mystical circles. 

^ This is exactly why i posted that Wikipedia link. I am sorry but the west isnt the world. And Swastika was and is way bigger than you think. "select mystical circles" nope nothing mystical about it(doesn't summon fairies), cultural yes and select is playing it down way too much(Billions i said). please educate yourself through the link i posted. And i think it will help people when they'll ask "if swastika and hakenkreuz are the same thing why the hate for hakenkreuz?" for which you can further explain to them what is swastika and how it was wrongly used in germany. 

"The West" have been dictating what the world should or shouldn't hate or what the world should stand for and shouldn't but i think it's high time you look at people you're hurting by cancelling something close to them just cuz its convenient for you to use a shorter word instead of something that actually narrows it down to its wrong use. 

[Spotty]

52 minutes ago, olofpunk said:

Swastika's been widely used for more than a couple millennium as a symbol of peace and good luck in various religions from Jainism, Buddhism to Hinduism etc. A lot of Indians use this symbol to mark objects that they want to last long and to keep them safe. We have it on cars, bikes, doors, temples, walls, computers and a lot of other objects as is our tradition to pray and thank for the opportunity to have that object in our possession. 

The problem is for westerners the symbol represented one of the worst genocides in human history resulting in millions of people murdered and countless more displaced due to their religious beliefs. When a westerner sees that symbol they aren't thinking prosperity and luck. They're thinking atrocity, murder, and hate crimes.

 

I can appreciate you sharing what the symbol represents to you and your culture & religion but arguing over what to call it isn't going to change what the West associates the symbol with. 

You can call westerners naive for not understanding the significance it has in India but you're also naive if you don't understand and appreciate the significance it has in the west.

[Volbet]

1 minute ago, olofpunk said:

^ This is exactly why i posted that Wikipedia link. I am sorry but the west isnt the world. And Swastika was and is way bigger than you think. "select mystical circles" nope nothing mystical about it(doesn't summon fairies), cultural yes and select is playing it down way too much(Billions i said). please educate yourself through the link i posted. And i think it will help people when they'll ask "if swastika and hakenkreuz are the same thing why the hate for hakenkreuz?" for which you can further explain to them what is swastika and how it was wrongly used in germany. 

I know the West isn't the world, which is why I specifically said I was talking about the West. 

Canada is in the West, which is why the connotation of the swastika is linked to the Third Reich.

 

I know that the swastika has been used for millennia outside of the West, and that the usage and connotations are very different. 

But those culturally bound connotations aren't really a thing in in the West. The meaning of symbols change depending on where you are. The meaning of the swastika is not set in stone.  

As said, I respect that the symbol mean something different to you, but to a Westerner the swastika is linked to some of the worst atrocities imaginable. And I can't see why you can't respect that. 

[olofpunk]

9 minutes ago, Spotty said:

The problem is for westerners the symbol represented one of the worst genocides in human history resulting in millions of people murdered and countless more displaced due to their religious beliefs. When a westerner sees that symbol they aren't thinking prosperity and luck. They're thinking atrocity, murder, and hate crimes.

 

I can appreciate you sharing what the symbol represents to you and your culture & religion but arguing over what to call it isn't going to change what the West associates the symbol with. 

You can call westerners naive for not understanding the significance it has in India but you're also naive if you don't understand and appreciate the significance it has in the west.

I understand what it means in the west and it should've been so a long time ago but people chose convenience over appropriation. I am not asking you to not hate a symbol that represents a dire time in the history what i am asking is to narrow it down keeping the other half of the world in mind. Hate it as much as you want and i hate hakenkreuz too but the reason i hate hakenkreuz is cuz thats what reminds me of what happened in germany, not swastika. Swastika reminds me of something totally different and the word swastika isnt an english word it's taken from sanskrit which is an ancient hindu language and is still taught in schools. 

It would've been so much better if the media at the time in the west would've called it hakenkreuz and not swastika. It might be late but i will still try. And i am aware i am speaking on a western forum and the amount of support i will get for my arguments will be minimal to none but i hope you try to put yourselves in my shoes and actually understand what i am trying to say.

[olofpunk]

12 minutes ago, Volbet said:

I know the West isn't the world, which is why I specifically said I was talking about the West. 

Canada is in the West, which is why the connotation of the swastika is linked to the Third Reich.

 

I know that the swastika has been used for millennia outside of the West, and that the usage and connotations are very different. 

But those culturally bound connotations aren't really a thing in in the West. The meaning of symbols change depending on where you are. The meaning of the swastika is not set in stone.  

As said, I respect that the symbol mean something different to you, but to a Westerner the swastika is linked to some of the worst atrocities imaginable. And I can't see why you can't respect that. 

I am respecting it is the reason i am asking you to refer it to as hakenkreuz and to not just outright stop hating the symbol. And i would like to know if all Linus cares about is his western audience if that's so. He should be careful while speaking about things he doesn't understand. Wouldn't take much for him to keep the east in mind while talking for the experience he has.

[aisle9]

1 hour ago, olofpunk said:

Thank you for reading this and i couldn't resist letting it go this time so apologies if it felt to aggressive. You have over 11 million people following you and you have the responsibility to give them proper information. 

The US is living through something like this right now with the traitor's Confederate flag. Well, I mean, we've been living through it for over a decade, but now it's finally come to a head and is being acted on. Here's the issue: the trait--errrr--Confederate flag existed for almost 100 years before it was officially repurposed as a symbol of hate (although it had been used as one routinely as early as ten years post-Civil War). It was considered a symbol of heritage by many people before that, and those who honestly saw it as heritage and attached no other meaning to it--all two of them--were rightfully upset. There's a problem with that, though. Regardless of what those two people might think and intend, the traitor's flag was co-opted by most who wave it decades ago as a symbol of hate, intimidation and defiance following Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka and its mandate that schools be integrated.

 

Schools in most of the south really haven't been integrated yet, but that's a discussion for another day.

 

Point being, defending that flag based on its original meaning is telling millions of people who grew up under the intimidating shadow of that flag, being waved by everyone from their next-door neighbor to the Klan to local and state officials, even hanging off of government buildings as the official emblem of states, defending it is telling them that because it was a symbol of pride (not really true, but that's not the point here), they should treat it as a symbol of pride and respect it as such. Never mind that their distant ancestors were tortured and killed under it, and their more recent ancestors saw it held over them by guys in white sheets who came to burn crosses on their yard. Once a historical symbol is co-opted and used for hate, its value as a historical symbol is lost. See where this is going?

 

The swastika--which I'll continue to refer to as such because that's what "Haken Kreuz" translates into--was used for millennia by Indian and Asian cultures as a symbol of fertility and hope, and it may still be. IIRC, the symbol originated as a depiction of a goddess spinning her tail to spread life throughout the planet. India, IIRC, was almost completely untouched by WWII, so it makes sense that the reaction there would be, "We owned this symbol for thousands of years, stop telling us it's bad."

 

And there's the key word. Owned. When the swastika was used as the banner under which six million people were slaughtered in the name of racial superiority, ownership of that image was forever lost, at least as far as the western world is concerned. If the swastika is considered fine in India, that's understandable. Far more understandable than idiots here who bow to the flag of traitors who declared war on their own country and got their asses handed to them, but I again digress. But when you come onto a forum that is, I'd wager, very much centered around the western hemisphere, particularly Europe and North America, and post a defense of what we all grew up recognizing as the most hateful symbol of all time...you're not gonna get very far.

[olofpunk]

5 minutes ago, aisle9 said:

The US is living through something like this right now with the traitor's Confederate flag. Well, I mean, we've been living through it for over a decade, but now it's finally come to a head and is being acted on. Here's the issue: the trait--errrr--Confederate flag existed for almost 100 years before it was officially repurposed as a symbol of hate (although it had been used as one routinely as early as ten years post-Civil War). It was considered a symbol of heritage by many people before that, and those who honestly saw it as heritage and attached no other meaning to it--all two of them--were rightfully upset. There's a problem with that, though. Regardless of what those two people might think and intend, the traitor's flag was co-opted by most who wave it decades ago as a symbol of hate, intimidation and defiance following Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka and its mandate that schools be integrated.

 

Schools in most of the south really haven't been integrated yet, but that's a discussion for another day.

 

Point being, defending that flag based on its original meaning is telling millions of people who grew up under the intimidating shadow of that flag, being waved by everyone from their next-door neighbor to the Klan to local and state officials, even hanging off of government buildings as the official emblem of states, defending it is telling them that because it was a symbol of pride (not really true, but that's not the point here), they should treat it as a symbol of pride and respect it as such. Never mind that their distant ancestors were tortured and killed under it, and their more recent ancestors saw it held over them by guys in white sheets who came to burn crosses on their yard. Once a historical symbol is co-opted and used for hate, its value as a historical symbol is lost. See where this is going?

 

The swastika--which I'll continue to refer to as such because that's what "Haken Kreuz" translates into--was used for millennia by Indian and Asian cultures as a symbol of fertility and hope, and it may still be. IIRC, the symbol originated as a depiction of a goddess spinning her tail to spread life throughout the planet. India, IIRC, was almost completely untouched by WWII, so it makes sense that the reaction there would be, "We owned this symbol for thousands of years, stop telling us it's bad."

 

And there's the key word. Owned. When the swastika was used as the banner under which six million people were slaughtered in the name of racial superiority, ownership of that image was forever lost, at least as far as the western world is concerned. If the swastika is considered fine in India, that's understandable. Far more understandable than idiots here who bow to the flag of traitors who declared war on their own country and got their asses handed to them, but I again digress. But when you come onto a forum that is, I'd wager, very much centered around the western hemisphere, particularly Europe and North America, and post a defense of what we all grew up recognizing as the most hateful symbol of all time...you're not gonna get very far.

The reason these two situations are different is the symbol retained the negative meaning where it originated. The americans created that symbol and the americans used it inappropriately. The east has a symbol which was taken by a someone in germany and used for something horrible. And i never asked to not hate the symbol. But that symbol isnt swastika, it looks like swastika but it isnt. And all i asked was for linus to keep his eastern audience in mind while talking in his videos. 

he asked why people would have swastikas on their cars and i answered his question. I wouldnt if he would've asked "why do westerners have swastikas on their cars".

[minibois]

As someone who learned about history/religion before English, I have always been confused about why the word 'swastika' meant both the religious symbol and the WW2 symbol.

In my native tongue, these two have very different words (the WW2 symbol being a literal translation for the German 'Hakenkreuz') and the Eastern symbol being named 'Swastika'. 

 

At the same time, we have to understand the association less informed people will make to this symbol's original intended use and the use during the 1930's and 1940's (and even now).

When you show a western person a swastika (whichever orientation), they will make an immediate association with the horrible actions committed by a party who actively used that symbol. It's understandable Microsoft removes such imagery from their videogame, but I also don't think it's Linus' task to view this from any other position than his own.

Since 'swastika' is a word with so many meanings behind it (the most commonly known in the west being the very negative one), it's obviously going to make people think of that before anything else.

 

In my opinion, it just stems from ignorance by a lot of people (people ignorant to what the swastika meant before the 1940's), but it also comes from an angle that one has to assume people don't know about said symbol.

 

It's the same reason why there was a Pokemon card that had a 'swastika' (not in the WW2 'German orientation') that was edited when it was released in the west. It's so you do not confuse certain people with symbols they will immediately (perhaps falsely, since it was 'flipped' on the card) with atrocious acts.

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Koga's_Ninja_Trick_(Gym_Challenge_115)

 

But a lot of that can be said for other controversies Pokemon for example edited in the past: https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Pokémon_controversy

They edited shots in the anime and poses in the game, because they could be seen as a Nazi salute. It's 'just' holding an arm in a specific way, but it's all about the association people would make.

Same for a specific Pokemon's skin color or a character's appearance being edited, because people might make a certain association with it.

 

OP, I understand your viewpoint. I agree with your viewpoint; the swastika isn't exclusively a 1940's hateful symbol. At the same time though, you have to understand it brings up certain associations with a large portion of people, who are consumers of Microsoft (and viewers of Linus).

[olofpunk]

4 minutes ago, minibois said:

As someone who learned about history/religion before English, I have always been confused about why the word 'swastika' meant both the religious symbol and the WW2 symbol.

In my native tongue, these two have very different words (the WW2 symbol being a literal translation for the German 'Hakenkreuz') and the Eastern symbol being named 'Swastika'. 

 

At the same time, we have to understand the association less informed people will make to this symbol's original intended use and the use during the 1930's and 1940's (and even now).

When you show a western person a swastika (whichever orientation), they will make an immediate association with the horrible actions committed by a party who actively used that symbol. It's understandable Microsoft removes such imagery from their videogame, but I also don't think it's Linus' task to view this from any other position than his own.

Since 'swastika' is a word with so many meanings behind it (the most commonly known in the west being the very negative one), it's obviously going to make people think of that before anything else.

 

In my opinion, it just stems from ignorance by a lot of people (people ignorant to what the swastika meant before the 1940's), but it also comes from an angle that one has to assume people don't know about said symbol.

 

It's the same reason why there was a Pokemon card that had a 'swastika' (not in the WW2 'German orientation') that was edited when it was released in the west. It's so you do not confuse certain people with symbols they will immediately (perhaps falsely, since it was 'flipped' on the card) with atrocious acts.

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Koga's_Ninja_Trick_(Gym_Challenge_115)

 

But a lot of that can be said for other controversies Pokemon for example edited in the past: https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Pokémon_controversy

They edited shots in the anime and poses in the game, because they could be seen as a Nazi salute. It's 'just' holding an arm in a specific way, but it's all about the association people would make.

Same for a specific Pokemon's skin color or a character's appearance being edited, because people might make a certain association with it.

 

OP, I understand your viewpoint. I agree with your viewpoint; the swastika isn't exclusively a 1940's hateful symbol. At the same time though, you have to understand it brings up certain associations with a large portion of people, who are consumers of Microsoft (and viewers of Linus).

This is the most unbiased reply i have got so far and i agree with what you said. And i understand what people associate it to in the west. Would be nice though if linus finds a middle ground(using hakenkreuz is one) and keeps not just his western audience but also easterners in mind. He's a youtuber which is a public platform after all.

Thanks for understanding.

[olofpunk]

8 minutes ago, Benji said:

I'm not weighing in on the discussion about this symbol, but I will tell you this: It is a public platform, yes, but he explicitly mentioned on multiple occasions that everything that he presents on topics is his own opinion. And he has no association to East Asian cultures and traditions, so why would he present a point of view that isn't his own when one  point of his channel is also to reflect on his personal opinion? Because that sentence explicitly doesn't even seem scripted. He also mentioned once in a video (might be the 1 million subscriber Q&A for TechLinked, not sure though) that, if he sees something in the script that he doesn't really see so himself, he will go off-script and mention it. Also, as I think has been said before (even by Linus himself), the channel has more than 80% Western audiences and to stay relevant on a platform, you have to adhere to cultural standards and common views in that market. That's why a lot of Asian media is usually a niche in the Western countries, because they don't adhere to the common consensus in the West.

I think that is basically the explanation to this topic. It is basically pointless to debate whether or not someone does or doesn't see this and that related to a certain topic and then bouncing the "this is my opinion" ball back and forth when there is a simple explanation for that.

Much of what you said did not make sense to me and not everything is an opinion. Dismissing something by saying "it's your opinion and nothing more" is quite not the way to go about everything, else a lot of things that are wrong in the world will go unacknowledged. It comes down to perspective. It did not offend you, it did offend me and i posted about it. I am his viewer and have invested through various channels from money(do not twist this, thank you) to time and i felt he needed to educate himself on the topic hence the post. 

[olofpunk]

I get it everyone, not many of you are from regions that would get offended by such statements and arguing about this with people who cant relate is somewhat pointless. Its alright by me this post will just get buried and ignorance wins once again. I might also be somewhat biased cuz of me not being from canada and i try to understand. And i dont really expect him to even acknowledge this post or this post even going through him as thats not what his channel talks about even though he did exactly that. I will continue to watch his videos as i really like most of his content it's just there will be this disgust whenever i watch him knowing how ignorant he is(might just be me holding him to high standards as i considered him highly credible and informed).

Cheers and yeah just another day just another guy from a different culture trying to tell westerners how they should speak about something from his culture.

[minibois]

33 minutes ago, olofpunk said:

This is the most unbiased reply i have got so far and i agree with what you said. And i understand what people associate it to in the west. Would be nice though if linus finds a middle ground(using hakenkreuz is one) and keeps not just his western audience but also easterners in mind. He's a youtuber which is a public platform after all.

In my opinion, it's always important to keep this line in mind when making videos (or really any content online):

Quote

Remember your audience; both present and future.

This line has been part of this forum's community guidelines for the longest times and I think it fits very well here.

Anyone that watches Linus' videos will fall in one of these two groups:

- You know about swastika vs Hakenkreuz (<- what I will refer to the 'WW2 German swastika'-symbol from now on in this post)

- Those who don't.

 

Those who know about the difference, will need to understand Linus' viewpoint and audience, which is a largely Western-based viewpoint, presented to a (I presume) largely Western-based audience (<- which is not a verified statement, as I don't know their viewer-numbers, but an assumption).

So to these viewers they will either:

a. hear 'swastika' and assume Hakenkreuz

b. hear 'swastika', need to assume he talks about Hakenkreuz and need to understand through a Western viewpoint, this is seen as a 'bad symbol'.

 

I'm sorry to say this, but you can't expect Linus to tackle the difference between the two in the videos they currently created.

He doesn't run any history/religion channels, where the difference needs to be explicit. He doesn't dive deeply into all subjects, it's a TechLinked video. He needs to think about his own audience, which will fall into either category mentioned before ('those who know', 'those who don't know').

In that viewpoint, there is no need to distinguish between the two, since this is 'merely' reporting on actions done by others.

 

If he were to tackle this subject and going "Alright, so Microsoft is both deleting swastikas and the Hakenkreuz from people's emblem. This is a problem, because they are different symbols.." etc. it's important to be able to distinguish between the two.

But in the video, he's talking about banned symbols, those being the Hakenkreuz (and presumably swastika too, just 'to be safe' on Microsoft's end), meaning he has to use the more 'generally known' term of swastika.

[HM-2]

News just in- symbols can change in meaning over time, or in different places. Almost like moral relativism is a thing.

[SpaceGhostC2C]

2 hours ago, olofpunk said:

I dont think you're getting what I am trying to say. So you think using Hakenkreuz to refer to something that happened in Germany shouldn't be a thing and people should continue spreading hate for something that overall have carried a way different meaning and still carries it for billions of people? 

Hakenkreuz does exactly what it should. It narrows it down to what happened in germany.  

(How convenient when it's not something from your culture that is being cancelled.)

I don't think you are getting what he's trying to say, but rather than trying to speak for him I'll give you my version of it:

 

Saying "it wasn't a swastika, it was a Hakenkreuz" is as stupid as saying "Hitler didn't have a dog, he had a Hund".

Mixing languages is actually poor style, so substituting in a German translation for some words would definitely not be an improvement to the script. No, we shouldn't say "third Reich" even if we are used to it, it's just the "Third Kingdom" (yet another way in which Hitler was trying to tie himself to some diffuse tradition that just consisted in a mushup of different elements from different origins).

 

It's the same in other languages: that symbol already had a name before the Nazi party existed, and when they adopted it it was reported as such (e.g., in Spanish it's called both "Esvástica" and "Cruz gamada" - the latter due to it looking like 4 Greek (capital) Gammas at 90º angles). And the same goes for other symbols too; many groups and countries have included a (version of the) Sun in their symbology, it doesn't mean that the Sun itself has an ideology or that we should change in which language we say "Sun" when referring to those symbols, as to confer it some sort of "technical status" it doesn't have. The Japanese Empire used a rising sun in its flag, no need to translate to Japanese to say that.

[olofpunk]

3 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

I don't think you are getting what he's trying to say, but rather than trying to speak for him I'll give you my version of it:

 

Saying "it wasn't a swastika, it was a Hakenkreuz" is as stupid as saying "Hitler didn't have a dog, he had a Hund".

Mixing languages is actually poor style, so substituting in a German translation for some words would definitely not be an improvement to the script. No, we shouldn't say "third Reich" even if we are used to it, it's just the "Third Kingdom" (yet another way in which Hitler was trying to tie himself to some diffuse tradition that just consisted in a mushup of different elements from different origins).

 

It's the same in other languages: that symbol already had a name before the Nazi party existed, and when they adopted it it was reported as such (e.g., in Spanish it's called both "Esvástica" and "Cruz gamada" - the latter due to it looking like 4 Greek (capital) Gammas at 90º angles). And the same goes for other symbols too; many groups and countries have included a (version of the) Sun in their symbology, it doesn't mean that the Sun itself has an ideology or that we should change in which language we say "Sun" when referring to those symbols, as to confer it some sort of "technical status" it doesn't have. The Japanese Empire used a rising sun in its flag, no need to translate to Japanese to say that.

A lot of conflicting statements in your reply. You say language isnt important yet you still want to call it "Third Reich" and not "Third Kingdom". I have no idea what you are trying to say but i already ended the argument. I know where most of you are coming from so arguing it here doesn't make sense. On an indian forum though it would be a different story. Sad that we cant find a neutral ground to talk about this. Oh and its not exactly a swastika might wanna inform yourself on that also its origin isnt spanish so i have no idea what does that have to do here. Again, the rising sun analogy, conflicting statements. Cheers!

[SpaceGhostC2C]

1 minute ago, olofpunk said:

A lot of conflicting statements in your reply. You say language isnt important yet you still want to call it "Third Reich" and not "Third Kingdom". ç

You read it exactly backwards.

 

1 minute ago, olofpunk said:

 Again, the rising sun analogy, conflicting statements. 

Which conflict? English sentences, when proper, use words in English, not random translations to other languages here and there. Is it that hard to understand?

I guess it is...