Vegetarians/Vegans. [Poll]

[Mentalguy]

Hello fellow LTT'lers,

 

i had a conversation with some guys on Facebook about the pro's and con's of being/becoming a Vegetarian/Vegan yesterday. Sadly it ended with some guy telling me to shut the fuck up without him even stating a single thing. They obviously were out of reasons for not being Veggy. I was the only Veggy/smart guy in that "discussion" btw.

 

So i thought, why not ask other intelligent guys here on the forums for their opinion? The whole veggy thing is actually slowly becoming a thing here in germany but i think its very different in for example the US.

 

I made this little poll for you to answer and i'd be so happy if you, in addition to that, state WHY exactly you chose your answer above.

 

 

 

Thanks and greetings,

Flo

For every day that i dont eat meat, I will go into the woods and brutally murder the cutest animal i find.

Give me meat. Think of the rabbits.

 

 

I say that every time cruelty to animals comes up in a vegetarian debate. 

[Vypa]

I just love the freedom to eat what I want, further more meat contains allot of protein that help your body grow and all that good stuff, we are omnivores so I don't see why we should limit ourselves, but I'm not complaining people can do what ever they want, that's just the reasons why I personally won't become a veggy.

[Camul]

I've been a veggie since last July and I have no desire to go back. It's not the taste I dislike, nor do I really care about the whole meat is murder thing. It's just the thought of what meat actually is, and then EATING. Gross.

[DirkaFat]

Vegetables taste bad. Meat tastes good. I'm so Jenius

[Nineshadow]

I've been a veggie since last July and I have no desire to go back. It's not the taste I dislike, nor do I really care about the whole meat is murder thing. It's just the thought of what meat actually is, and then EATING. Gross.

You know that every 3 months or so you eat your entire body weight of YOURSELF?

 

Vegetables taste bad. Meat tastes good. I'm so Jenius

I don't even...Jenius.

[Camul]

You know that every 3 months or so you eat your entire body weight of YOURSELF?

I'm not sure if I even want to know, but what do you mean? .

[Guest GRRigger]

I've been a veggie since last July and I have no desire to go back. It's not the taste I dislike, nor do I really care about the whole meat is murder thing. It's just the thought of what meat actually is, and then EATING. Gross.

Out of personal interest, how big is your awarness of vegan diet disadvantages and how do you suppliment

[Nineshadow]

I'm not sure if I even want to know, but what do you mean? .

In aprox. 3 months a person eats his own weight worth of his own dead cells.

[Camul]

Out of personal interest, how big is your awarness of vegan diet disadvantages and how do you suppliment

My friend told me that I need to eat loads of mixed nuts to get iron, but I've not actually even bothered to look. I don't really care about my health.

 

In aprox. 3 months a person eats his own weight worth of his own dead cells.

It's gross, but nothing I'm gonna notice.

[Mentalguy]

"Organic" food is just mental masturbation. It makes you feel good, but it's actually worse in every objective way. Just do regular masturbation instead, it's a lot more fun and actually has real benefits.

Or go buy a Mac. I find it funny(coming from some farming background, mainly "all natural fields") that some argue that we could sustain ourselves on farms like that. The fields that dont use pesticides or herbicides take up a lot of manpower(we had a 20 man team working 6 hours a day to weed fields by hand). they only produce 1/3 to 1/5 of the produce(at lower quality) of regular fields. Not to mention the chances of infestation are incredibly high(had to torch many acres of field).

[Lord Pantaloons]

Let me tell you a story.

 

Once upon a time, Hitler was vegan.

 

The end.

 

Moral: If you don't eat meat you're a Nazi.

[Lyons]

Humans have evolved as omnivores for hundreds of thousands of years. I see no reason to stop eating meat now... You will never convince me that you can be a healthy Vegetarian/vegan, it's not how our bodies are conditioned. I tend to only eat free range/organic stuff though, can't be doing with anything else (mainly because it tastes much better!).

[Guest GRRigger]

My friend told me that I need to eat loads of mixed nuts to get iron, but I've not actually even bothered to look. I don't really care about my health.

 

 

Lmao. Not at all? Are you mental?   Go to doctor. Seriously. Both shrink and medical.

 

I am mean, but i mean it.

[Camul]

Lmao. Not at all? Are you mental?   Go to doctor. Seriously. Both shrink and medical.

 

I am mean, but i mean it.

Not even slightly.  Maybe to put it into perspective, I've never once cleaned the razor blade I use to cut myself, and that includes the time I threw it in a bin and then got it back out of desperation.

 

Also, I already see a shrink.

[Axypha]

Never ate a single piece of meat in my whole entire life.

[LAwLz]

Well, the lack of some important substances for the body isnt really a good point. You can get everything in form of pìlls or something to mix in your food nowadays. Even for a relativley cheap price.

Or! You could get everything without having to rely on pills by eating healthy food that contains meat. Crazy idea I know, but I am not a fan of having to take pills if I don't have to.

 

 

Another important point would be, that plants produce less CO2 than e.g. cows. Actually they do exactly the opposite. It is known, that the methan cows produce is as bad for the environment as the stuff cars throw out there, or even worse!

Fair point. We have to eat more of them before they polite the entire earth with their farts. I am joking of course. You are making a valid argument. It's really hard to say just how much of an impact it has though, but it most likely has some impact.

 

 

Oh, did you use google? How cute. Out of those, iron and B12 are critical. But you can find b12 in fermeted soya products, and iron is in vegetables. Yes, there are enough resources to get all essential aminoacids in vegan diet.

 

Again, you can suppliment every single thing your body needs. I will say it again, there are no restraints that we couldnt go vegan at all.

Nope, I got really into vegetarians 2-3 years ago and read up about it. Then I decided it was a silly idea and continued to eat meat.

If you read my post carefully, you will see that I never said all vegetarians suffered from lack of those things, but most do. There are very very few vegetarians that are healthy. Most of them lacks one or more of the things I listed. That's not to say that everyone who eats meat is healthy either, but using health as an argument for vegetarianism is just silly when the vast majority of them are not healthy.

I'd rather eat whatever I want and be unhealthy, than to avoid eating things I like, while still being unhealthy. As for the last part about supplements, I'd rather not have to rely on eating pills if I don't have to. I know, it sounds crazy but that's just how I am...

 

 

What makes you think "Those resources" are free? Crops not usable? WE SEED THEM! Do you realize how much land, water, energy, TIME, CROPS, is needed for one steak? You could feed a family of 4 entire week for lunch on the crops you would instead eat yourself!

When did I say they were free? A lot is byproducts from stuff we make for ourselves. One of my friends worked at a bread factory and stuff that was out of date, or was dropped on the floor, or for some reason could not be sold (deformed, wrong mix of ingredients etc) was made into food for cattle. In those situations, the food the animals eat is in fact free. If we didn't feed them it would be completely wasted. I call bullshit on that "you could feed an entire family for 4 weeks for the same energy it takes to make one steak" argument. Show me some numbers to back it up (and it has to include the fact that the food animals eat is often not suitable for humans, such in the example I gave above, or for example grass).

 

 

And please, if you will use Organic, in any sentece, read what it means first. A garden beside my house is pretty much organic.

Ehhh.... What? Are you so delusional that you think organic food don't have any pesticides on them? They do (there are some that don't, but the vast majority does), and they often use much worse pesticides than the synthetic ones that have been developed in recent years. Organic does not mean pesticide free, it means that the pesticides used are not synthetic (an example of a organic pesticides would be rotenone and pyrethrin). You can read about it here if you're interested.

 

 

And there are benefits, economical and health related.

Wait, there are? Can you please explain some of the benefits, and also back it up with solid, peer reviewed evidence? I would gladly change to being vegetarian if it not only saved me money but also made me healthier as well.

 

 

Why are you not complaining about that?

The difference is that vegetarians think they are healthy (and are often very proud to tell everyone how healthy they are), but most aren't. Non-vegetarians often know they are unhealthy.

 

 

Healthcare is not free either.

For me it is... But like I said before if you can prove to me with indisputable, peer reviewed science that vegetarians are healthier and that it can save me money then I will gladly become a vegetarian.

[Lyons]

The most annoying thing about vegetarians and vegans is when they're at your house for a meal (or going out). At your house is the worst. I'm not cooking you a separate meal or catering to your very specific tastes that 90% of people have no interest in. 'I don't like the taste' is the worst, I can at least understand a moral standing to an extent, but not liking the taste is bullshit. There are HEAPS of different types of meat, and guess what - they all taste completely different!

[Guest GRRigger]

When did I say they were free? A lot is byproducts from stuff we make for ourselves. One of my friends worked at a bread factory and stuff that was out of date, or was dropped on the floor, or for some reason could not be sold (deformed, wrong mix of ingredients etc) was made into food for cattle. In those situations, the food the animals eat is in fact free. If we didn't feed them it would be completely wasted. I call bullshit on that "you could feed an entire family for 4 weeks for the same energy it takes to make one steak" argument. Show me some numbers to back it up (and it has to include the fact that the food animals eat is often not suitable for humans, such in the example I gave above, or for example grass).

 Yea, dream on in your fantasy land when cows eat only grass and drink from a fresh mountain stream.

And 1 pound crops that you feed a cow to produce meat does not equal 1 pound of meat. Its more like 16:1 ratio.

We are excluding water, energy such as fuel so the outcome in meat is even lower. About 20 times more land is used to feed yourself meat than grain. More than 50% of all lands in `murica are only crops for cattle directly.

 

 

Nope, I got really into vegetarians 2-3 years ago and read up about it. Then I decided it was a silly idea and continued to eat meat.

If you read my post carefully, you will see that I never said all vegetarians suffered from lack of those things, but most do. There are very very few vegetarians that are healthy. Most of them lacks one or more of the things I listed. That's not to say that everyone who eats meat is healthy either, but using health as an argument for vegetarianism is just silly when the vast majority of them are not healthy.

I'd rather eat whatever I want and be unhealthy, than to avoid eating things I like, while still being unhealthy. As for the last part about supplements, I'd rather not have to rely on eating pills if I don't have to. I know, it sounds crazy but that's just how I am...

Wait, there are? Can you please explain some of the benefits, and also back it up with solid, peer reviewed evidence? I would gladly change to being vegetarian if it not only saved me money but also made me healthier as well.

The difference is that vegetarians think they are healthy (and are often very proud to tell everyone how healthy they are), but most aren't. Non-vegetarians often know they are unhealthy.

i am not here to argue who thinks he is healthly and who actuall is. i am here to tell you can WITH NO PROBLEM go vegan and be healthy.

 

 

For me it is...  Are you mental? Healthcare is free? YOu pay it one way or another.

Again, come out of your fantasy land.

But like I said before if you can prove to me with indisputable, peer reviewed science that vegetarians are healthier and that it can save me money then I will gladly become a vegetarian.

Cut the BS. We know what major causes for diseases are. Stroke, obesity(cause and disease) high blood cholesterol or sugar or pressure, cardiovascular diseases, cancer, athritis dont come from eating plants. I am sure one guy/woman minimal in your family you have something of those.

 

And how come eating B12 vitamin pills or snack bars is SO FUCKING INSANE, yet eating 9 pills for brekfast for high blood pressure, cholesterol, sugar, and suppliments for vitamins, is not at all? People are dying because MEAT and other dairy producs. We are nation, earth hooked on PILLS! How many people dies from diseases and have crippled life because of em? WEll more people tha die or have life changing accident on roads thats for sure!

Yet Just the thought that you COULD go vegan is TOTALLY INSANE OMG ARE YOU STUPID?

 

Again, there are stupid people, even on this forum for example "Camul" who are vegan "Just because" and dont care about health just like most `muricans ( that are overweight, yes weight is directly related to health ).

 

You see i am not on their side, i am not on meat eaters side. Just common sence thats all.

[Vitalius]

And how come eating B12 vitamin pills or snack bars is SO FUCKING INSANE, yet eating 9 pills for brekfast for high blood pressure, cholesterol, sugar, and suppliments for vitamins, is not at all? People are dying because MEAT and other dairy producs. We are nation, earth hooked on PILLS! How many people dies from diseases and have crippled life because of em? WEll more people tha die or have life changing accident on roads thats for sure!

Yet Just the thought that you COULD go vegan is TOTALLY INSANE OMG ARE YOU STUPID?

 

Again, there are stupid people, even on this forum for example "Camul" who are vegan "Just because" and dont care about health just like most `muricans ( that are overweight, yes weight is directly related to health ).

 

You see i am not on their side, i am not on meat eaters side. Just common sence thats all.

Grow up? You're using Caps Lock excessively, you used OMG and all caps to call someone stupid, and are making baseless claims. Not that other people aren't doing that, they may or may not be, but still.

This is kind of devolving into debauchery (I love that word so much.). 

[Guest GRRigger]

Grow up? You're using Caps Lock excessively, you used OMG and all caps to call someone stupid, and are making baseless claims. Not that other people aren't doing that, they may or may not be, but still.

This is kind of devolving into debauchery (I love that word so much.). 

My expression of frustration is more important than stupidity and ignorance of people right? Okay, ...

 

debauchery? More like deuchebaggery

[Vitalius]

My expression of frustration is more important than stupidity and ignorance of people right? Okay, ...

 

debauchery? More like deuchebaggery

And if you let stupid people frustrate you, they're winning.  

You can't fix stupid, but you can fix expressions of frustration. 

Edit: And just so we are clear, I don't 100% agree with either of you.

[Guest GRRigger]

And if you let stupid people frustrate you, they're winning.  

You can't fix stupid, but you can fix expressions of frustration. 

Edit: And just so we are clear, I don't 100% agree with either of you.

Fair enough. Could you tell me what i got wrong? I am pretty sure i covered all the important points of someone becoming a vegan and impact on health, economy.

[Vitalius]

Fair enough. Could you tell me what i got wrong? I am pretty sure i covered all the important points of someone becoming a vegan and impact on health, economy.

I'm going to use just a few examples,

 

 

Yea, dream on in your fantasy land when cows eat only grass and drink from a fresh mountain stream. Completely side-stepped the fact he brought up that what cows eat aren't what humans eat. And so the idea that what we feed cows can be fed to humans instead, when it can't be.

And 1 pound crops that you feed a cow to produce meat does not equal 1 pound of meat. Its more like 16:1 ratio. He never said it did. You both are bringing up extremes.

We are excluding water, energy such as fuel so the outcome in meat is even lower. About 20 times more land is used to feed yourself meat than grain. More than 50% of all lands in `murica are only crops for cattle directly. Source?

 

Oh, did you use google? How cute. Out of those, iron and B12 are critical. But you can find b12 in fermeted soya products, and iron is in vegetables. Yes, there are enough resources to get all essential aminoacids in vegan diet. Your being excessively derogatory. "Don't be a dick" - Wil Wheaton. Direct violation of the CoC by nature.

 

Again, you can suppliment every single thing your body needs. I will say it again, there are no restraints that we couldnt go vegan at all. This, followed by what comes next...

We are nation, earth hooked on PILLS! While I understand you mean medical pills, I find this directly hypocritical to proclaim with the above line. The biggest difference between pills and bars: The shape.

That's yours. His,

 

 

But like I said before if you can prove to me with indisputable, peer reviewed science that vegetarians are healthier and that it can save me money then I will gladly become a vegetarian. I'm going to start with this because it personally irks me. Society doesn't have the resources to take this approach with everyone. I understand being a skeptic by nature, but this is an unhealthy position to take regarding hot and important topics. I consider it a cop out. By nature. 

 

For me it is... Taxes. It's never truly free.

Or! You could get everything without having to rely on pills by eating healthy food that contains meat. Crazy idea I know, but I am not a fan of having to take pills if I don't have to. Admittedly, sometimes the problems with meats is that you get too much of something you need. Because you can OD on anything, even water. A good example is Salt (and other spices), which is usually used to season meat/prevent it from rotting. So most meats are saturated in it. And you do need some salt to survive.

 

Are you so delusional that you think organic food don't have any pesticides on them? See CoC, "Don't be a dick" Wil Wheaton. Also, the Bill & Ted quote about being excellent and such.

[Kilerbomb]

It's funny how some vegans think they're "making a difference" by not eating meat, thinking that somehow that will stop cows from being butchered. Hate to break it to you, but whether or not you eat meat, the same amount of cows are going to be butchered. Same concept goes for people who think turning off the lights at their house is saving the planet. Nope, the electricity plants are still burning just as much coal as they were before.

[Guest GRRigger]

GRRigger, on 21 Feb 2014 - 4:03 PM, said:

Fair enough. Could you tell me what i got wrong? I am pretty sure i covered all the important points of someone becoming a vegan and impact on health, economy.

I'm going to use just a few examples,

 

Quote

 

Yea, dream on in your fantasy land when cows eat only grass and drink from a fresh mountain stream. Completely side-stepped the fact he brought up that what cows eat aren't what humans eat. And so the idea that what we feed cows can be fed to humans instead, when it can't be.

I dont know what your cows eat, but ours eat whatever is grown for them, on a land that could be used for other crops.

And 1 pound crops that you feed a cow to produce meat does not equal 1 pound of meat. Its more like 16:1 ratio. He never said it did. You both are bringing up extremes.

Do you want extremes? I got more http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/1997/08/us-could-feed-800-million-people-grain-livestock-eat

If you need 10 - 16 ( 5 for indoor fish, 50 for lamb as extremes) times more crops for 1 pound of meat then that for me is pretty extreme.

We are excluding water, energy such as fuel so the outcome in meat is even lower. About 20 times more land is used to feed yourself meat than grain. More than 50% of all lands in `murica are only crops for cattle directly. Source?

Okay, i didnt find current paper, but we might expect the number to be bigger for obvious reasons.

Quote "The percentage of U.S. agricultural land used to produce meat is 56%."

And the paper is from like 1999 so yea... http://darwin.bio.uci.edu/sustain/global/sensem/MeatIndustry.html

As i said, i couldnt find other paper. I dont know how to search, i searched " crops for livestock " and such

Quote

 

Oh, did you use google? How cute. Out of those, iron and B12 are critical. But you can find b12 in fermeted soya products, and iron is in vegetables. Yes, there are enough resources to get all essential aminoacids in vegan diet. Your being excessively derogatory. "Don't be a dick" - Wil Wheaton. Direct violation of the CoC by nature.

True Dick i shall not be. But i didnt ask you to correct my "dickyness" attitude.

Again, you can suppliment every single thing your body needs. I will say it again, there are no restraints that we couldnt go vegan at all. This, followed by what comes next...

We are nation, earth hooked on PILLS! While I understand you mean medical pills, I find this directly hypocritical to proclaim with the above line. The biggest difference between pills and bars: The shape.

I am not sure what you are trying to say. You can get b12 in different shape and forms, including in raw non-animal food. And no, it doesnt connect to upper sentence. If you want to go vegan, there are no restraints. I have studied veganism in school. I would know about it wouldnt I? and for every thing there is a substitute.

And why would you point out shape of pills and b12 snack bars?  Are you being a dick? Its just vitamin in different form.