I like Linus' videos but....

[WereCatf]

Just now, mr moose said:

no, I am saying the damage occurs when the parts are handled and installed in the pc,   When the parts are on the pallet they are in anti static bags, they are protected, they only become no longer protected when they are physically removed from those bags and installed in the pc.  And that doesn't matter if you do it at home or in a factory.   That is why the pallet is irrelevant.

You do realize the charge accumulates in the person doing the unpacking and handling the parts? If they're taking parts off of a pallet, the charge accumulates in them and when they go and handle parts...well, it's no longer irrelevant, is it? Not to mention multiple people working in close proximity, possibly occasionally rubbing off on each other and so on. In a factory-environment there are a lof of pathways for a charge to accumulate, but here you are claiming it's all irrelevant because static charge is magical and only matters if it occurs while you have a component in your hands, not before it.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, WereCatf said:

You do realize the charge accumulates in the person doing the unpacking and handling the parts? If they're taking parts off of a pallet, the charge accumulates in them and when they go and handle parts...well, it's no longer irrelevant, is it? Not to mention multiple people working in close proximity, possibly occasionally rubbing off on each other and so on. In a factory-environment there are a lof of pathways for a charge to accumulate, but here you are claiming it's all irrelevant because static charge is magical and only matters if it occurs while you have a component in your hands, not before it.

Did you read what I said? 

 

5 minutes ago, mr moose said:

no, I am saying the damage occurs when the parts are handled and installed in the pc,   When the parts are on the pallet they are in anti static bags, they are protected, they only become no longer protected when they are physically removed from those bags and installed in the pc.  And that doesn't matter if you do it at home or in a factory.   That is why the pallet is irrelevant.

 

 

 

Again, parts on a pallet are protected, so it doesn't matter how much static builds up during transit or packing or unpacking.  What matters is the charge that builds up when the part is taken out of its protective packet and installed in the PC.    Again,  pallet wrapping is moot.

[WereCatf]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

Again, parts on a pallet are protected, so it doesn't matter how much static builds up during transit or packing or unpacking.  What matters is the charge that builds up when the part is taken out of its protective packet and installed in the PC.    Again,  pallet wrapping is moot.

Okay, magical static-charge. Mmkay. A person accumulating a charge before they've taken a component out of its bag is irrelevant, because the charge knows to hold back and only newly-acquired charge is relevant.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, WereCatf said:

Okay, magical static-charge. Mmkay. A person accumulating a charge before they've taken a component out of its bag is irrelevant, because the charge knows to hold back and only newly-acquired charge is relevant.

This isn't that complicated.  read the article before you post again, what I am telling you is literally founded on studies on electronic manufacturing since the 1970's.  The evidence I linked and what you are desperately trying to argue against is established in production lines and specifically the build process of PC's, not the unpacking of pallets.

[WereCatf]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

This isn't that complicated.  read the article before you post again, what I am telling you is literally founded on studies on electronic manufacturing since the 1970's.  The evidence I linked and what you are desperately trying to argue against is established in production lines and specifically the build process of PC's, not the unpacking of pallets.

Yes, yes. I'll get back to you once I've researched on how magical static-charge that knows to discharge only if it has been accumulated after a component was taken out of a bag and not before works.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, WereCatf said:

Yes, yes. I'll get back to you once I've researched on how magical static-charge that knows to discharge only if it has been accumulated after a component was taken out of a bag and not before works.

 

Even if you don't want to educate yourself on the subject, you should at least know that trying to argue the person who unpacks the pallet at HP is the same person who sits on the production line assembling PC's is grasping at straws.    

 

I made a statement, I backed it up with evidence, I am now trying to illustrate how the person unpacking a pallet has nothing to do with the person who assembles on a production line,  Internet arguments never change.  

[WereCatf]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

Even if you don't want to educate yourself on the subject, you should at least know that trying to argue the person who unpacks the pallet at HP is the same person who sits on the production line assembling PC's is grasping at straws.

I don't work at HP, so I don't know who is or isn't unpacking the pallets. Last I checked, though, the components do not appear out of thin air in the employees hands, and static electricity has plenty of ways of accumulating.

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I backed it up with evidence

Of factory-conditions.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, WereCatf said:

I don't work at HP, so I don't know who is or isn't unpacking the pallets. Last I checked, though, the components do not appear out of thin air in the employees hands, and static electricity has plenty of ways of accumulating.

righto.

 

1 minute ago, WereCatf said:

Of factory-conditions.

If you'd bothered to read what I linked you'd know why that is a moot point.

[WereCatf]

Just now, mr moose said:

If you'd bothered to read what I linked you'd know why that is a moot point.

If you'd bothered to read what I said, you'd know why that isn't a moot point.

[RejZoR]

Literally the ONLY precaution I always do before fiddling with internals is unplug or turn off system on PSU and then press ON button to discharge capacitors. That's on already built systems that were powered on just moments ago. Because that's a legitimate issue of having power in components and shortcircuiting something. Other than that, load of over-worrying BS. Build the damn thing on wooden table and you'll never have problems. Flooring has always been insulating where I was doing builds, either vinyl floor or laminate which also has plastic layer on top. No issues ever. Call it survival bias all you want, 20 years of constant fiddling and it becomes a statistic.

[mr moose]

22 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

. Call it survival bias all you want, 20 years of constant fiddling and it becomes a statistic.

20 years of drinking only coke and still having all your teeth is also a statistic, but if you try to use it as proof coke doesn't rot teeth then It holds less value than an anecdote,   especially in the face of 50 years of actual research. 

 

 

 

[RejZoR]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

20 years of drinking only coke and still having all your teeth is also a statistic, but if you try to use it as proof coke doesn't rot teeth then It holds less value than an anecdote,   especially in the face of 50 years of actual research. 

 

 

 

People drink coke for far more than 20 years and it doesn't just erode teeth more than lets say lemonade or orange juice and doesn't dissolve liver. Yet we still see that bs propagated non stop how coke is literally a 30% hydrochloric acid in a soft drink bottle.

 

Instead of everyone sperging about ESD as this evil boogeyman and making people literally fear of touching things like there will just be lightnings zapping all over the place, how about explaining actual required conditions? Literally never seen them ever.

 

It's always "don't do it on carpet", but no one ever explained or said if ESD is a problem if both computer and you are not grounded, if both are grounded or just one or the other. Coz that would be actually helpful. Coz in my case, it was always both not grounded. Computer on wooden desk and standing on vinyl or laminate flooring. If we're talking, then lets talk properly. Was because of that then? Neither being grounded? Just making people fear of touching shit because "ESD" is getting really annoying...

[mr moose]

5 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

People drink coke for far more than 20 years and it doesn't just erode teeth more than lets say lemonade or orange juice and doesn't dissolve liver. Yet we still see that bs propagated non stop how coke is literally a 30% hydrochloric acid in a soft drink bottle.

 

Instead of everyone sperging about ESD as this evil boogeyman and making people literally fear of touching things like there will just be lightnings zapping all over the place, how about explaining actual required conditions? Literally never seen them ever.

 

It's always "don't do it on carpet", but no one ever explained or said if ESD is a problem if both computer and you are not grounded, if both are grounded or just one or the other. Coz that would be actually helpful. Coz in my case, it was always both not grounded. Computer on wooden desk and standing on vinyl or laminate flooring. If we're talking, then lets talk properly. Was because of that then? Neither being grounded? Just making people fear of touching shit because "ESD" is getting really annoying...

 

No one is making it out to be a boogey man,  please read the thread again.  It's literally a real thing that people should take precaution against, not the 7 posts telling people they don't have to do anything and everything will be fine.

 

I don't care how many computers you've built, I don't even care if your only 12 years old, static can and does kill parts, the precautions are so easy and cheap there is just no excuse to tell people not to bother.  L:et alone carry on an unnecessary argument about it in the face of the evidence.

[RejZoR]

And yet you still haven't actually explained it for 3 cases I've given. Yeah, you're all making it a boogeyman by calling it this scary invisible thing that can kill your 1000€ graphic card just like that... If people actually understood WHY it happens exactly and under what conditions exactly, not just that "it can happen" so do this silly ritual of touching metal things all over the room and wearing lightning rods up our asses just to be sure. Coz to date I haven't seen anyone explain it in such detail which is still actually very basic.

 

Like, would static jump between user and device if both are not grounded. Or if both are. Coz from my basic knowledge of electricity and electrical discharge, ESD only happens when one or the other is grounded, but not when both both or none are. Coz ESD can only happen if one party acts as a capacitor and then discharges when it touches a grounded party. Yes? No? Can also happen with both are not grounded via some sort of physical phenomenon?

 

That's the level of "science" I'd always like to hear about ESD, but never see it. Anywhere. Coz yeah, it's always the boogeyman level of explanation: "ESD is scary, be afraid and do ritual of touching metal things and it'll go away..."

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

And yet you still haven't actually explained it for 3 cases I've given. Yeah, you're all making it a boogeyman by calling it this scary invisible thing that can kill your 1000€ graphic card just like that... If people actually understood WHY it happens exactly and under what conditions exactly, not just that "it can happen" so do this silly ritual of touching metal things all over the room and wearing lightning rods up our asses just to be sure. Coz to date I haven't seen anyone explain it in such detail which is still actually very basic.

 

Like, would static jump between user and device if both are not grounded. Or if both are. Coz from my basic knowledge of electricity and electrical discharge, ESD only happens when one or the other is grounded, but not when both both or none are. Coz ESD can only happen if one party acts as a capacitor and then discharges when it touches a grounded party. Yes? No? Can also happen with both are not grounded via some sort of physical phenomenon?

 

That's the level of "science" I'd always like to hear about ESD, but never see it. Anywhere. Coz yeah, it's always the boogeyman level of explanation: "ESD is scary, be afraid and do ritual of touching metal things and it'll go away..."

 

I posted a link earlier and have repeatedly mentioned it.  If you are not willing to read it then that is your problem.  the science is pretty solid.

[mr moose]

5 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

And yet you still haven't actually explained it for 3 cases I've given.

There is nothing to say, some people get a way with building a computer on static intense carpet while rubbing a balloon on their head, that doesn't mean static doesn't kill parts and it certainly doesn't mean we should tell people not to care about it.

 

[IdlePX]

6 hours ago, mr moose said:

Here's a whole heap of posts in this thread alone from people using survivor bias to make it sound like ESD mitigation is pointless. and that ESD will not damage your PC:

 

For anyone spotting my quote in this post, I didn't say ESD won't damage your PC. I would say the risk is so minimal for me historically, I don't worry about it. 

 

Weigh the risks up for yourself. Know that there is a chance it can happen. But a lot of folks really don't care or worry enough to take any precautions, because it's a very small chance it can happen.

 

Now, I'm off to eat jam on toast, while wearing a white shirt WITHOUT wearing a bib, because I'm just that kinda guy, YOLO.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, IdlePX said:

For anyone spotting my quote in this post, I didn't say ESD won't damage your PC. I would say the risk is so minimal for me, so I don't worry about it. 

 

Weigh the risks up for yourself. Know that there is a chance it can happen. But a lot of folks really don't care or worry enough to take any precautions. 

 

Now, I'm off to eat jam on toast, while wearing a white shirt WITHOUT wearing a bib, because I'm just that kinda guy, YOLO.

And you are more than within your right to hold and even express that opinion, however it's hard for people to weigh up the risks when they don't know the risks because the last 7 posts told them it was nothing to worry about because they hadn't killed anything in the last 25 years.  You see what I mean?

[IdlePX]

@mr moose I'm not going into it with you. You're impossible to talk too. I was only commenting for anyone that saw my post quoted by yourself.

[mr moose]

42 minutes ago, IdlePX said:

@mr moose I'm not going into it with you. You're impossible to talk too. I was only commenting for anyone that saw my post quoted by yourself.

???

[RonnieOP]

10 hours ago, mr moose said:

That's irrelevant.  The damage has nothing to do with unpacking pallets, or shipping. it comes solely from building the machines.  People (human beings) handling the parts during assembly.

Do you have any valid factual statistics on people killing their parts from esd?

 

You cant tell people that their experience is nothing but anecdotal evidence without providing any evidence of your own. 

 

Saying "they are tested in the factory so if its doa then it was probably esd that killed it" is an asinine statement.

 

Id be willing to bet if we could some how count the number of people who practice no esd protection and found out how many had doa parts it would be a tiny tiny percentage. 

 

 

[Taja]

Tl;dr:

Esd CAN kill your components, but realistically it wont. Taking minor precautions is enough, and if you are unsure or have really expensive components, just discharge yourself from time to time and avoid buing on carpet, etc.

 

I remember a jayztwocents video where he actively tries to kill stuff with ESD, you can see the arcs from his figer to the components, and iirc nothing dies. Not even usb ports. That means stuff cant die? NO, but it shows how resistant your hardware is.

 

For me, the fact that tech reviewers "mistreat" their hardware is good, because it makes me less afraid to damage stuff since they basically spit and kick the hardware and it still works. 

 

 

 

ALSO: A BIT unrelated, but can we agree that water kills hardware? Cool. Everybody knows that, everybody agrees that water is waaaaaaay more dangerous than esd. So I didnt find the jayztwocents video about esd, but I found this one. It goes without saying that this is insane and nobody should try it, but the video card just refuses to die (after the video he flashes a new bios and it works):

https://youtu.be/iJUl_IqDbNA

[Tristerin]

Just read first couple sentences - you would hate me, my way of storing and handling if you think Linus is bad lol.  

 

I moonwalk like Michael Jackson in wool socks while building PC's and concern myself approx. 0% about ESD.

[mr moose]

5 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

Do you have any valid factual statistics on people killing their parts from esd?

Yes, For tlike the 3rd time,  in the article I linked HP said they prevented 50,000 pcs a year from being ESD damaged on their production line when they started ESD safe practices.

 

5 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

 

You cant tell people that their experience is nothing but anecdotal evidence without providing any evidence of your own. 

yes I can,  because that is the very definition of anecdotal.   And besides I did provide evidence.  Which everyone wants to ignore.

5 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

Saying "they are tested in the factory so if its doa then it was probably esd that killed it" is an asinine statement.

 

Id be willing to bet if we could some how count the number of people who practice no esd protection and found out how many had doa parts it would be a tiny tiny percentage. 

 

 

 

IF you really want to put your head in the sand on this one then by all means, but don't expect anyone to just take your word for it when NASA research has other things to says.

[The_russian]

5 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Yes, For tlike the 3rd time,  in the article I linked HP said they prevented 50,000 pcs a year from being ESD damaged on their production line when they started ESD safe practices.

I appreciate you finding an article that is actually from a legit source not some random blog, but the problem I have with that article is it was published in 2002. Although most of the data is relevant, like HP saving 50,000 computers for that year, other data like "30 - 50% of electronic failures are due to electrostatic fault (ESD)." is probably outdated. I am sure that the industry has continued to implement more measures to prevent damage from ESD since 2002. Also, I can't seem to find a source for the 30 - 50% figure, do you know where they got that number from?