I like Linus' videos but....

[Dabombinable]

20 hours ago, mr moose said:

Modern hardware has mitigations built in in most cases, however depending on the size of the charge you can still kill many components (mainly things like CPU and Ram).  What people need to understand is that ESD is not the same the the world over, depending on the environment and other conditions it can be significantly worse.   In some places you could build a new PC every day for 30 years and not have an issue, but just 10 degrees south or north and you might have every 10th suffer some sort of issue. 

Do you mean by the difference in humidity?

20 hours ago, mr moose said:

It is if you only accept the anecdotal evidence of a few forum people claim they haven't had any issues.   As I said before how many people have DOA parts?  remembering that  most (if not all) parts are validated at the factory before being boxed.  

 

EDIT: my point is that these people are claiming outright it isn't a problem, and I am saying you have no way to conclude that, and I can show evidence that ESD precautions do have an effect.

ESD precaution that people constantly seem to ignore: touching something that is grounded every now and then, thus negating the need to buy any anti-static tools/equipment. And if you watch through Linus's videos you'll see that quite often he ends up touching something that is grounded (in addition to working in an environment that shouldn't encourage static).

I'm saying outright, its not as big a problem as its being made out to be. Certainly not one that is actually common.

[mr moose]

43 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

Do you mean by the difference in humidity?

ESD precaution that people constantly seem to ignore: touching something that is grounded every now and then, thus negating the need to buy any anti-static tools/equipment. And if you watch through Linus's videos you'll see that quite often he ends up touching something that is grounded (in addition to working in an environment that shouldn't encourage static).

I'm saying outright, its not as big a problem as its being made out to be. Certainly not one that is actually common.

Maybe you missed the link I posted earlier, it's a copy of a nasa/astrophysics data system paper, on the page linked (point 3) talks about when HP introduced basic ESD mitigation in their process saving an estimated 50,000 pcs a year from static damage.   It is certainly a real threat to pc parts especially ram and CPU.  Many times you can mitigate the threat by touching grounded surfaces, but that is not what people are saying, they are outright claiming it is not a threat and does not cause damage. There is no way to conclusively claim it doesn't, especially when we have pretty undeniable proof it does.  All these people claiming they've built 20 systems and had no issues means nothing. 

 

Humidity increases the conductance of the air thus reducing the amount of charge that can be stored by an object.  

[RonnieOP]

On 3/17/2020 at 5:44 AM, mr moose said:

And my Electronics education +my 3 years as a technician. 

Means literally nothing. No offense.

 

"It worked when tested now it doesnt. So it died from esd" is a horrible horrible thought process.

 

Without actual evidence of esd its impossible to blame it on esd. 

 

Even people who go overboard with esd protection have gotten doa parts.

 

I think you put way too much faith in qa testing. 

[mr moose]

5 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

Means literally nothing. No offense.

 

"It worked when tested now it doesnt. So it died from esd" is a horrible horrible thought process.

 

Without actual evidence of esd its impossible to blame it on esd. 

 

Even people who go overboard with esd protection have gotten doa parts.

 

I think you put way too much faith in qa testing. 

 

The problem is you are taking an incredible small sample of success and claiming it applies across the board (that's a survivor bias).  I just linked to an article basically proving that static kills parts.  

 

You can't dismiss the fact that ESD can kill your part on install and claim it is all DOA when you have no way to prove that,  especially not in the face of the evidence that it does happen. 

[homeofmew]

What did it for me was The Roast, wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the humor behind all of it.
Some videos are harder to watch than other but that's just me.

[Kanna]

On 3/17/2020 at 9:25 AM, PlaywithJunk said:

I have to say that I like the videos Linus makes. He has interesting hardware and he's funny. But there is an issue I'd like to address....

 

I sometimes shiver when I see him handling expensive hardware without any ESD protection. Stacking graphic cards on plastic packaging materials or on plastified boxes, throwing RAM modules all over the desk and walking around and touching CPU pins.... aaargh! All the things you should absolutely avoid doing.

 

And it would be very easy to make a much more professional impression. Place an antistatic mat on your workbench, if neccessary use a portable mat. Then wear a wrist strap connected to that mat (which is properly grounded) or use a shoe strap. But that only works with an antistatic floor. And don't walk around with parts if not necessary. Touch computer cases befor touching the board or any components.

As a role model for many viewers, these simple steps should be taken.

 

ESD problems can be nasty because they do not show up immediately. Sometimes an affected system works perfectly and fails a few months later. Or you get intermittent crashes with seemingly no causes. And a 3000$ CPU chip deserves a bit of extra care... right? The problem is that you can't say if you damaged something or not. So better be on the safe side.

 

Some packaging materials can generate a real lot of static electricity. I personally have to unpack pallets with shrink wrap around frequently. On a dry day, this generates enough electricity to arc through my shoe soles! And that really hurts! You can hear a bang.... just imagine touching elecronics while charged up like that. Instant death.

But the voltage doea not need to be that high. A discharge can be felt when it's about 1000 volts. So you can carry 500V around and you fell nothing when you discharge.... but your tiny transistors inside the chips do!

 

So my advice to Linus.... inform yourself about ESD and practise the good rules. Why not make a video about ESD? I think that would help a lot of people and avoid a lot of frustration.

I'm ready to give advice if necessary, I'm working in the computer industry since 30 years

 

Chris

then you have to see Linus dropping stuff

[RonnieOP]

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

 

The problem is you are taking an incredible small sample of success and claiming it applies across the board (that's a survivor bias).  I just linked to an article basically proving that static kills parts.  

 

You can't dismiss the fact that ESD can kill your part on install and claim it is all DOA when you have no way to prove that,  especially not in the face of the evidence that it does happen. 

Nobody is claiming that static cant kill parts. "Can" and "will" are two different things.

 

You say "small sample size" but i would be willing to bet the vast vast majority of builds out there were not built with extra esd protections in place. And the vast majority of them are fine. 

 

You have no way of proving its esd that caused the doa part either. So its a moot point.

[BuckGup]

On 3/17/2020 at 3:38 AM, WereCatf said:

Eh, in the ~25 years I've been messing around with PCs and electronics, I haven't managed to break a single thing due to ESD and I say this as someone who has never tried to avoid ESD at all.

That may be true but go into a lab setting and ESD will kill and cause weird anomalies that are costly to diagnose and find. I have never killed anything from ESD with consumer hardware but I have had issues with ESD when working in a lab on server boards

[TempestCatto]

[Guest]

Cant you guys just order the pills online for your esd?? 

Wait sorry.

 

Ive killed a bit of hardware in my time. Quite a bit more with LN2 and stupid v-core use. 

 

The static discharge needs to be well placed. Keep the static away from vital parts such as the bios chip. 

 

Also amount of charge that gets released. If its high enough to hear it, see it, and feel it.... Well the likeliness of damaged hardware increases greatly. 

 

Discharges of static up to 20kv is dangerous for your hardware. I dont care how long youve worked with hardware, youve just never stored enough voltage to damage your hardwares.

 

Do ground yourselves. It doesnt hurt to wear a rain coat when you go into the rain.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheAncientLegend]

On 3/17/2020 at 4:25 AM, PlaywithJunk said:

And it would be very easy to make a much more professional impression. 

What LTT video lead you to believe the channel was about professionalism? LMFAO.

[atxcyclist]

On 3/17/2020 at 6:35 AM, mr moose said:

Modern hardware has mitigations built in in most cases, however depending on the size of the charge you can still kill many components (mainly things like CPU and Ram).  What people need to understand is that ESD is not the same the the world over, depending on the environment and other conditions it can be significantly worse.   In some places you could build a new PC every day for 30 years and not have an issue, but just 10 degrees south or north and you might have every 10th suffer some sort of issue. 

ESD mitigation isn't a big deal either. A strap or grounding yourself occasionally, not walking with socks on carpet, and etc. are not difficult. Most people build a computer every few years, the minute or two extra of prep to keep themselves ESD free should be no problem. 

[mr moose]

3 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

Nobody is claiming that static cant kill parts. "Can" and "will" are two different things.

Here's a whole heap of posts in this thread alone from people using survivor bias to make it sound like ESD mitigation is pointless. and that ESD will not damage your PC:

 

On 3/17/2020 at 7:38 PM, WereCatf said:

Eh, in the ~25 years I've been messing around with PCs and electronics, I haven't managed to break a single thing due to ESD and I say this as someone who has never tried to avoid ESD at all.

On 3/17/2020 at 8:52 PM, RejZoR said:

ESD is not even that much of a problem. In 20 years I never managed to fry anything with it and I never really cared much about it.

On 3/17/2020 at 9:03 PM, IdlePX said:

Put me down for another person who in 20'ish years of PC building, has never once tried to avoid ESD, and has never had a dead component on install. Heck, 90% of computers I've built, have been built while sitting on a carpeted floor.

On 3/17/2020 at 9:37 PM, adamr539 said:

Same here! For 10 years nothing bad had happened, whatever price range hardware.

On 3/17/2020 at 10:28 PM, RejZoR said:

Survivor bias? I've been assembling PC's on wooden desks, laminated plastic tiles, carpets, you name it. It's not bias when it just doesn't happen. Only thing I fried is coz I stuck a god damn screwdriver into PCB. Not from some static.

 

3 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

You say "small sample size" but i would be willing to bet the vast vast majority of builds out there were not built with extra esd protections in place. And the vast majority of them are fine. 

All the posts on this thread combined still make an insignificant sample size. And are all an invalid argument due being a survivor bias.

 

3 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

You have no way of proving its esd that caused the doa part either. So its a moot point.

I posted evidence, stop ignoring that.  HP saved 50,000 pc's a year from static damage by introducing ESD mitigation on their assembly line.  I linked the proof already.

 

 

 

 

 

30 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

ESD mitigation isn't a big deal either. A strap or grounding yourself occasionally, not walking with socks on carpet, and etc. are not difficult. Most people build a computer every few years, the minute or two extra of prep to keep themselves ESD free should be no problem. 

There is a difference between us plebs and our experience and what actually happens, responding to the bit in bold, even if it is only two % of all hardware issues that are caused by ESD on install, does anyone want to be in that percentage because they refused to wear $3 wrist strap or earth earth themselves out?   I am certainly not going to be promoting people ignore ESD (as the above posts clearly promote) because I haven't had a part fail that I could attribute to it. 

[atxcyclist]

8 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

There is a difference between us plebs and our experience and what actually happens, responding to the bit in bold, even if it is only two % of all hardware issues that are caused by ESD on install, does anyone want to be in that percentage because they refused to wear $3 wrist strap or earth earth themselves out?   I am certainly not going to be promoting people ignore ESD (as the above posts clearly promote) because I haven't had a part fail that I could attribute to it. 

 

Agreed, I certainly don't want to be there, hardware is expensive and time is always worth something. 

[WereCatf]

10 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Here's a whole heap of posts in this thread alone from people using survivor bias to make it sound like ESD mitigation is pointless. and that ESD will not damage your PC:

Don't put words in my mouth. ESD definitely can damage things, but in my experience, it's not even NEARLY as likely as you make it out to be.

 

11 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I posted evidence, stop ignoring that.  HP saved 50,000 pc's a year from static damage by introducing ESD mitigation on their assembly line.  I linked the proof already.

You're comparing factory-conditions to home-conditions and people in factory-approved clothing to whatever people wear at home.

[The_russian]

12 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I posted evidence, stop ignoring that.  HP saved 50,000 pc's a year from static damage by introducing ESD mitigation on their assembly line.  I linked the proof already.

I don't know about the others but I wasn't saying that ESD can't or won't damage components, just that like you said companies have introduced mitigations and protection so it is less likely now. I'm not telling other people to ignore the risk of ESD, just that you are less likely to damage something than say 15 or 20 years ago. If someone feels uncomfortable not using a grounding strap or is in an environment that is more prone to ESD, then by all means take the necessary precautions. 

[mr moose]

8 minutes ago, WereCatf said:

Don't put words in my mouth. ESD definitely can damage things, but in my experience, it's not even NEARLY as likely as you make it out to be.

 

You're comparing factory-conditions to home-conditions and people in factory-approved clothing to whatever people wear at home.

When you tell people you've been building computers for 25 years, never once tried to mitigate for ESD and never had a problem you are very actively telling people that it is something they don't need to worry about.     I don't think you quite understand how it works,  it doesn't matter if you build a PC in factory or at home,  the parts are just as susceptible.  In fact you have more chance of damaging parts with ESD at home than a factory, so if the evidence is clear in a factory setting then it is just as relevant if not more so at home.

 

1 minute ago, The_russian said:

I don't know about the others but I wasn't saying that ESD can't or won't damage components, just that like you said companies have introduced mitigations and protection so it is less likely now. I'm not telling other people to ignore the risk of ESD, just that you are less likely to damage something than say 15 or 20 years ago. If someone feels uncomfortable not using a grounding strap or is in an environment that is more prone to ESD, then by all means take the necessary precautions. 

I didn't quote you claiming you said anything in particular, in fact I am not sure what your last post claimed,  however you are right in that I claimed products these days contain much better mitigations than they used to, although some products those mitigations aren't as good (it would be hard to kill a GPU simply due to nature of the part, a CPU on the other hand is basically a couple billion highly sensitive junctions attached to 1000 pins and they're all exposed).  

 

It is important to take simple precautions every time, just because people have been lucky enough to not have noticed the damage doesn't mean everyone will.  And as a community that is supposed to be here to give the best advice, that advice should be take precautions as it only costs $3 for a strap and grounding yourself while avoiding carpet is free.  

[WereCatf]

2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I don't think you quite understand how it works,  it doesn't matter if you build a PC in factory or at home,  the parts are just as susceptible.

Most people don't e.g. have to unwrap whole pallets full of components at home, so yes, it does matter.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, WereCatf said:

Most people don't e.g. have to unwrap whole pallets full of components at home, so yes, it does matter.

That's irrelevant.  The damage has nothing to do with unpacking pallets, or shipping. it comes solely from building the machines.  People (human beings) handling the parts during assembly.

[WereCatf]

Just now, mr moose said:

That's irrelevant.  The damage has nothing to do with unpacking pallets, or shipping. it comes solely from building the machines.  People (human beings) handling the parts during assembly.

Try unpacking large pallets of stuff wrapped in plastic without massive buildup of ESD and then come tell me that it's irrelevant.

[Dabombinable]

Just now, WereCatf said:

Most people don't e.g. have to unwrap whole pallets full of components at home, so yes, it does matter.

I wonder what people would be saying about my total lack of ESD protection when handling my ancient less-than-500MB HDD. Because its not bloody needed with the correct precautions (note that my lone 2x 80MB HDD are stored in ESD bags). Touch something grounded every once in a while when working (aka a precaution), and you don't need the ESD gear. The only time I'd ever suggest someone buy it is if the environment was extremely humid and dusty.

[WereCatf]

1 minute ago, Dabombinable said:

I wonder what people would be saying about my total lack of ESD protection when handling my ancient less-than-500MB HDD. Because its not bloody needed with the correct precautions (note that my lone 2x 80MB HDD are stored in ESD bags). Touch something grounded every once in a while when working (aka a precaution), and you don't need the ESD gear. The only time I'd ever suggest someone buy it is if the environment was extremely humid and dusty.

Just building one's PC in a place where they don't typically get shocked is often enough. I mean, sure, if you have a desk like e.g. I have, which gives me dozens of zaps a day, then one might better looking into another spot in their house to do it. That said, even with my desk giving me zaps, I still haven't managed to break a single thing in my life with ESD.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, WereCatf said:

Try unpacking large pallets of stuff wrapped in plastic without massive buildup of ESD and then come tell me that it's irrelevant.

It doesn't matter how much static gets built up there or not.  Static when unpacking a pallet is not what is causing the damage. 

 

Seriously read the link I provided. 

 

30-50% of electronic failures are ESD related

90% of ESD failures are latent, the damage shows up later as a failure not always right when the ESD occurs.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

I wonder what people would be saying about my total lack of ESD protection when handling

The same thing I said before, survivor bias.   We've all had parts survive after handling them without protection,  but that doesn't mean ESD is not a problem and is something we should ignore.

[WereCatf]

Just now, mr moose said:

It doesn't matter how much static gets built up there or not.  Static when unpacking a pallet is not what is causing the damage.

So, you're saying there are different types of ESD depending on where it is accumulated from and that magically determines whether it can or can't damage equipment?

[mr moose]

Just now, WereCatf said:

So, you're saying there are different types of ESD depending on where it is accumulated from and that magically determines whether it can or can't damage equipment?

no, I am saying the damage occurs when the parts are handled and installed in the pc,   When the parts are on the pallet they are in anti static bags, they are protected, they only become no longer protected when they are physically removed from those bags and installed in the pc.  And that doesn't matter if you do it at home or in a factory.   That is why the pallet is irrelevant.