Star Wars V. Star Trek

[Trik'Stari]

3 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

-mega snip

Episode 8 killed the franchise for me. It was absolute garbage in every way possible, I no longer regard anything made after Episode 3 as canon. Until Disney apologizes, fires Kathleen Kennedy, and retcons Episode 8 and everything that follows.

 

Star Trek went far too SJW for me, along with them killing Project Axanar which would have been fucking amazing.

 

The Expanse is by far the best TV series I have watched in a long, LONG time. I've almost finished the entire book series (Reading Persepolis Rising right now) and all I can say is this shit is going to get freaking INSANE.

[amdorintel]

On 10/30/2019 at 8:58 AM, xARACHN1D said:

2003

wow i wish i was that young, knowing everything i know now

 

star wars new stuff is wankery

star trek is so so

 

[Ithanul]

I enjoy both.  StarTrek for the more sci-fi bent and the fact that episodes will touch on more touchy subject matter.  StarWars when I just want to watch some fantasy sci-fi action with spaceships and stuff being blown up.

 

Though, if Firefly was thrown in, I be leaning towards that.

[Ithanul]

-accidental double post-

[PineyCreek]

...I hate to be a grumpy old man, but I like them both.  Except anything made after the original SW trilogy or anything after Star Trek: Voyager.  The newer stuff can get off my lawn.

[dalekphalm]

18 hours ago, Praesi said:

Discovery is Garbage and a Disgrace to StarTrek. Pathetic SJW Bullshit. No real ST Fan like this Pile of Horseshit.

I'm a real Star Trek Fan, and I like Discovery. I've seen every Star Trek show and movie, including all of Enterprise.

 

It's attitudes like this that make people want to quit fandoms, because it's toxic negativity that just brings everyone down, instead of lifting each other up.

 

You don't have to like Discovery - no one is holding a gun to your head. But really? Star Trek has always been "SJW". Always. As if that term even has meaning anymore since now-a-days people just throw it anything even remotely left-leaning or progressive, in addition to the more extreme scenarios in which it might be used.

 

Discovery is pretty damn good. From: A hardcore Star Trek fan.

17 hours ago, Trik'Stari said:

Episode 8 killed the franchise for me. It was absolute garbage in every way possible, I no longer regard anything made after Episode 3 as canon. Until Disney apologizes, fires Kathleen Kennedy, and retcons Episode 8 and everything that follows.

Yeah that's not going to happen. Kennedy won't get fired, TLJ won't get retconned, and Disney won't apologize. They certainly made some mistakes with TLJ - no questioning that. But I do believe they have learned from those mistakes.

 

If you've a hardcore Star Wars fan - go see Rise of Skywalker, and decide for yourself if the franchise is still ruined. Maybe it'll still suck in your opinion - and that's okay. But just maybe JJ will bring it all together.

 

I have my hopes very high for the movie.

17 hours ago, Trik'Stari said:

Star Trek went far too SJW for me, along with them killing Project Axanar which would have been fucking amazing.

Axanar wasn't killed off, I'm subscribed to their YT channel, they worked out a deal with CBS to keep going. It won't be as massive scale as initially planned, but it's not dead. It's alive and well (they post updates sometimes daily).

17 hours ago, Trik'Stari said:

The Expanse is by far the best TV series I have watched in a long, LONG time. I've almost finished the entire book series (Reading Persepolis Rising right now) and all I can say is this shit is going to get freaking INSANE.

I have the first 3 books, but I've avoided even starting them, because I'm worried about risking spoiling upcoming seasons. Can you tell me how far I can read safely before they catch up to the show?

[Trik'Stari]

57 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

I'm a real Star Trek Fan, and I like Discovery. I've seen every Star Trek show and movie, including all of Enterprise.

 

It's attitudes like this that make people want to quit fandoms, because it's toxic negativity that just brings everyone down, instead of lifting each other up.

 

You don't have to like Discovery - no one is holding a gun to your head. But really? Star Trek has always been "SJW". Always. As if that term even has meaning anymore since now-a-days people just throw it anything even remotely left-leaning or progressive, in addition to the more extreme scenarios in which it might be used.

 

Discovery is pretty damn good. From: A hardcore Star Trek fan.

Yeah that's not going to happen. Kennedy won't get fired, TLJ won't get retconned, and Disney won't apologize. They certainly made some mistakes with TLJ - no questioning that. But I do believe they have learned from those mistakes.

 

If you've a hardcore Star Wars fan - go see Rise of Skywalker, and decide for yourself if the franchise is still ruined. Maybe it'll still suck in your opinion - and that's okay. But just maybe JJ will bring it all together.

 

I have my hopes very high for the movie.

Axanar wasn't killed off, I'm subscribed to their YT channel, they worked out a deal with CBS to keep going. It won't be as massive scale as initially planned, but it's not dead. It's alive and well (they post updates sometimes daily).

I have the first 3 books, but I've avoided even starting them, because I'm worried about risking spoiling upcoming seasons. Can you tell me how far I can read safely before they catch up to the show?

3rd book is fine. The third season ended where the third book ends.

 

After the fourth book, things go a little fucky and get completely out of hand and it's freaking amazing.

 

Also bear in mind that the show is drastically different from the books (not in major plot points but in smaller details and a lot of characters), but both are equally good IMHO.

 

As for Star Trek, they went far too SJW. I'll have to look into Axanar, last I heard they had issued a cease and desist or something. Either way fuck them for doing even that much. They should have hired the guy making it and made it in addition to Discovery.

 

And as for Star Wars, I no longer have any interest in it. I really don't. As far as I can tell all they want to do with it is make it wrong to piss off the original fan base on purpose.

[dalekphalm]

2 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

3rd book is fine. The third season ended where the third book ends.

 

After the fourth book, things go a little fucky and get completely out of hand and it's freaking amazing.

Okay great - I can read up to the books I've got. After that, I'll likely just wait it out until the series concludes.

2 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

Also bear in mind that the show is drastically different from the books (not in major plot points but in smaller details and a lot of characters), but both are equally good IMHO.

Yeah I know there are some differences, both in characters and details, but also some of the ships are a bit (or a lot) different, etc. The details I've read about the books (Expanse Wiki) have been very interesting, so I'm excited either way.

2 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

As for Star Trek, they went far too SJW. I'll have to look into Axanar, last I heard they had issued a cease and desist or something. Either way fuck them for doing even that much. They should have hired the guy making it and made it in addition to Discovery.

That's just CBS being douche bags. They've always been very anti-fanfilm, and even the upper execs were basically anti-Trek for a long time, until new execs moved in and made change within the company.

 

Axanar is alive and well, though I have no idea when you might expect the next installment to be released.

 

Discovery Season 2 was really fucking cool, once the story started to come together for the season arc. And Michael is a badass character - though Philippa Georgiou takes the cake as the most badass character (both her original self, and the mirror universe Emperor Georgiou in particular).

 

There's a lot to explore there and lots of good world building to play with.

2 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

And as for Star Wars, I no longer have any interest in it. I really don't. As far as I can tell all they want to do with it is make it wrong to piss off the original fan base on purpose.

Not really - I'm part of the original fan base, and I'm not pissed. Yeah it's not Legends, and I'm never going to get Luke Skywalker on the big screen, having a force standoff with the entire collective Killik hive-mind, and him rooting himself in place so strongly with the force that not even a black hole could move him - but that was never going to happen anyway.

 

Legends was far too convoluted to ever be adapted as-is to the big screen. Too many ridiculous, nonsensical, or illogical contradictions to save.

 

But they are taking parts of Legends and adapting them onto the big screen. There's even rumours that they might actually adapt the Yuuzhan Vong as the next big "baddies" in the post-First Order era.

 

Is it perfect? Hell no. But Rogue One was a love letter to the OT, for example. As was Solo in many ways.

[Praesi]

2 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

I'm a real Star Trek Fan, and I like Discovery. 

Maybe you like it, thats  ok, but its not StarTrek. Fact.

[Sauron]

It's kind of like asking which is better between beer and champagne. They're completely different and are only vaguely related in that they're both alcoholic drinks sci-fi.

[Sauron]

5 minutes ago, Praesi said:

Maybe you like it, thats  ok, but its not StarTrek. Fact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

[Praesi]

11 minutes ago, Sauron said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Fancy links dont change it.

 

Klingons for example never cared about the Body of the Dead. They are empty shells. But here they collect the dead Bodys on some kind of cemetary ship. Thats beyond BS. Only one of many examples.

[Sauron]

Just now, Praesi said:

Fancy links dont change it.

 

Klingons for example never cared about the Body of the Dead. They are empty shells. But here they collect the dead Bodys on some kind of cemetary ship. Thats beyond BS. Only one of many examples.

Yeah, sooo... you're changing the definition of "Star Trek" from "anything that is sold under the Star Trek brand" to something else to support your argument. That's a fallacy, and you're objectively wrong. I'm pretty sure I could find quite a few inconsistencies among the hundreds of episodes and the dozen or so movies you consider to be canon if I wanted to - that wouldn't change the overall quality of the writing and the tone of the series, let alone its title. You can say Discovery is bad Star Trek if that's what you think, not that it isn't Star Trek.

[Praesi]

1 minute ago, Sauron said:

Yeah, sooo... you're changing the definition of "Star Trek" from "anything that is sold under the Star Trek brand" to something else to support your argument. That's a fallacy, and you're objectively wrong. I'm pretty sure I could find quite a few inconsistencies among the hundreds of episodes and the dozen or so movies you consider to be canon if I wanted to - that wouldn't change the overall quality of the writing and the tone of the series, let alone its title. You can say Discovery is bad Star Trek if that's what you think, not that it isn't Star Trek.

I dont want or need to support anything. I know im right. You can like Discovery, ok by me. But who say Discovery is StarTrek has no Idea what StarTrek is.

Another Example, out of dozens, maybe even hundrets. Roddenberry was absolutly clear about  the Engines of his Universe. But no, they even managed to fuck up this.

[Bacon soup]

Bob Lazar on Joe Rogan > Star wars and Star Trek combined.

[Sauron]

27 minutes ago, Praesi said:

You can like Discovery, ok by me. But who say Discovery is StarTrek has no Idea what StarTrek is.

Another Example, out of dozens, maybe even hundrets. Roddenberry was absolutly clear about  the Engines of his Universe. But no, they even managed to fuck up this.

I haven't even seen Discovery, all I need to know is that it officially bears the Star Trek name to know that it's Star Trek by definition.

 

And to be honest, if you're so worried about the technical details of warp engines I'd say you are the one who missed the essence of at least the first few series, which I have seen. I distinctly remember ToS and TNG being chock full of nebulous tech explanations and deus ex machinas but ultimately that never mattered because that's not what made them good in the first place.

 

Roddenberry put down some guidelines for consistency because he was a good writer and inconsistencies can take you out of the story but I don't believe for a second that was anywhere near his first concern. Roddenberry also had no idea it would ever become this successful and since he hasn't been writing new episodes for decades (what with him being dead and all) it's pretty safe to say it's no longer exclusively his brain child. I take more issue with "fans" being snobbish over mostly meaningless technicalities than I do with said technicalities. This is like saying that the Harry Potter movies aren't Harry Potter because Hermione's hair is a different color in the books.

[Praesi]

30 minutes ago, Sauron said:

I haven't even seen Discovery, all I need to know is that it officially bears the Star Trek name to know that it's Star Trek by definition.

 

And to be honest, if you're so worried about the technical details of warp engines I'd say you are the one who missed the essence of at least the first few series, which I have seen. I distinctly remember ToS and TNG being chock full of nebulous tech explanations and deus ex machinas but ultimately that never mattered because that's not what made them good in the first place.

 

Roddenberry put down some guidelines for consistency because he was a good writer and inconsistencies can take you out of the story but I don't believe for a second that was anywhere near his first concern. Roddenberry also had no idea it would ever become this successful and since he hasn't been writing new episodes for decades (what with him being dead and all) it's pretty safe to say it's no longer exclusively his brain child. I take more issue with "fans" being snobbish over mostly meaningless technicalities than I do with said technicalities. This is like saying that the Harry Potter movies aren't Harry Potter because Hermione's hair is a different color in the books.

Thx for proofing my point.

[Sauron]

5 minutes ago, Praesi said:

Thx for proofing my point.

Thank you for proving you don't have a point.

[Praesi]

2 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Thank you for proving you don't have a point.

You are right.

There is no point to talk with you about a topic you dont know much about.

 

[Xiee]

Both.

 

However, I don't quite like the new Disney Star Wars. They ruined the franchise.

 

As for Star Trek, everything was fine until Discovery.

[D.U.F.F.]

[amdorintel]

Can we compare Star Trek "nerds" + "cosplay" people to Star Wars

 

I'd say maybe the Star Wars people are older then Star Trek

[boc61]

Star Trek, no contest. I grew up with it from the Original Series , in it's initial run on. Being allowed to stay up to watch it was the carrot my parents used to get me to behave.

[JohnMcL7]

I wasn't that fussed originally about the Star Wars films but quickly became engrossed with Star Wars after reading the Thrawn trilogy long before there were any plans for the prequel trilogy and the TIE Fighter PC game which filled in the gaps in the films and as a prequel to the Thrawn trilogy showing his rise to the top position.

 

I think the point about the lack of technology development in Star Wars is a good one and it's something that was handled well outside the films with the old dreadnought-class heavy cruisers in use in the latter days of the old republic (some of which are seen in the rebellion fleets stripped down to lower their crew requirements), the newer Katana-fleet dreadnoughts intended to standardise the old republic fleet (and all of course lost) then the Victory-class Star Destroyers, Interdictor cruisers the mighty Imperator class Star Destroyers eventually matched up to the big Mon Cal Star Cruisers as well as the evolution of the fighters from the TIE Fighters to the Interceptors, Advanced TIE Fighters, the TIE Defenders as well as the gunboats and missile boats.  It also fitted in well with the original films as one of the reasons the rebels could survive and take on the Imperials was the Imperials were fighting a brutal and costly civil war.

 

After that though I lost interest in Star Wars as I thought the prequel films were too awful and dislike the focus on jedi then the new films have just completely killed any interest in Star Wars although I am a little curious if they are bringing the Katana fleet storyline into it as there's a shot in the recent trailer showing a fleet of what looks like derelict Star Destroyers.  I have tried the new Thrawn books but haven't liked them at all, there's no explanation of the new timeline so it's hard to know what has and hasn't happened and I don't like the new Thrawn who is now the good guy and his completely perfect in every way, never making a mistake unlike his original self which while a tactical genius he did make mistakes from time to time which made him more real.

 

For a long time I had no interest in Star Trek as it was fairly randomly shown on TV here and would frequently be swapped for a Gaelic children's program.  When First Contact came out I thought that looked good and after that made an effort to see some of the TNG episodes, around that time Voyager's Scorpion episode was shown which got me into Voyager particularly when the excellent Year of Hell two parter was shown shortly after.  I'd never been able to follow DS9 on TV but when I had a daily 90 minute commute on the train it was a great opportunity to watch all of DS9 back to back which meant I could appreciate what a fantastic show it was.

 

I have tried to watch Discovery but given up on it, I do like the idea of having long continuous storylines especially now with streaming making it easier to watch such series and it allowed DS9 to have better character development and longer, more complex storylines.  However Discovery makes such a mess of all of it which often very basic stories, many of the characters are annoying and shallow with little development and overall it just doesn't feel at all like Star Trek.  It's also strange to make almost exactly all the same mistakes as Enterprise did by hamstringing itself with being a sequel and choosing to be bizarrely inconsistent about respecting some of the Trek lore and other times deliberately ignoring it.  I thought some of the elements were good with a prototype ship being pushed into service with a warmaster of a Captain but none of that potential was realised.  

 

Orville on the other hand has been a real surprise which initially amused me by it's silliness but in time has really shown up Discovery with more serious storylines and real consequences to actions rather than the quick and easy fixes Discovery always seemed to have.