Star Wars V. Star Trek

[Drak3]

Just now, xARACHN1D said:

Disney Messed up star wars. Nuff said.

Eh. The canon stuff was never great to begin with.

[xARACHN1D]

14 minutes ago, Zando Bob said:

Lightsabers they have, they're quite ancient and traditional force-user weapons IIRC. Star Destroyers belong to 3 different eras in the movies: Clone Wars, Original Trilogy, and Sequel Trilogy. The Venator-class star destroyers in the Clone Wars were quite different to the OT ones. Different shape and I think they were also a lot smaller (they're just never shown side-by-side). The OT ones are basically revised versions of the Clone Wars tech, updated for the slightly newer times (I think there's only a 10-20 year gap between the Clone Wars and Original Trilogy). Sequel Trilogy was just reskinned Empire and Rebels. To better explain the more common ships, here's CW > OT > ST:

ARC-170 > T65 X-Wing (quite a lot different, only a single pilot, smaller, but similar abilities and wing setup) - T70 X-Wing (just a refresh)

 

Jedi Interceptor (ETA-2 specifically) > TIE Fighter (various, all very different to the interceptors while still having similar wing and cockpit placing) > TIE Fighter (wow they have shields now such amaze)

Y-Wing > Y-Wing (but usually with the armor panels removed) > Y-Wing (IIRC they stopped making them after the Clone Wars, during the OT they were destroying those that were left, any still running were "liberated" by the Rebels/Resistance/etc)

B-Wings and A-Wings IDK much about, other than that one of the squid people designed the B-Wing off the tail end of the Clone Wars, it's solidly an OT era and onward ship. 

 

Venator-Class Star Destroyer > ISD (Imperial-Class Star Destroyer, a bit bigger and a slightly tweaked shape/bridge layout) > those ones from the sequels that are mostly just even bigger or a very light reskin

Basically most of them changed a good bit between the Clone Wars and Original Trilogy, even given the relatively small time gap. 

Whereas the Sequels just put a very light reskin on all the stuff even though there's a larger time gap AFAIK. 

You are a cool person. I am 100% serious.

[dalekphalm]

1 minute ago, xARACHN1D said:

Disney Messed up star wars. Nuff said.

As a die hard fan who has over 100 Legends books - Star Wars was already messed up.

 

Legends has such a mixed bag - some is amazing and epic, some is crap.

 

With Disney, it's the exact same thing. Some of the new Disney Canon is amazing (Rogue One), some is crap (Many would say TLJ). The Mandalorian is coming out in 2 weeks, and that looks fucking swee

Spoiler

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[xARACHN1D]

1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

Eh. The canon stuff was never great to begin with.

Yes it was. Don't even say it wasn't. The whole Darth plagueis story line is amazing and there is nothing you can say to change my mind.

[xARACHN1D]

Just now, dalekphalm said:

As a die hard fan who has over 100 Legends books - Star Wars was already messed up.

 

Legends has such a mixed bag - some is amazing and epic, some is crap.

 

With Disney, it's the exact same thing. Some of the new Disney Canon is amazing (Rogue One), some is crap (Many would say TLJ). The Mandalorian is coming out in 2 weeks, and that looks fucking swee

  Reveal hidden contents

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet

 

Ok madalorian series is the exception. Maybe we will finally learn the origin of the dark saber and how it was created.

[dalekphalm]

Just now, xARACHN1D said:

Ok madalorian series is the exception. Maybe we will finally learn the origin of the dark saber and how it was created.

Not likely - though I expect it might make an appearance along with Bo-Katan (Maybe Sabine too).

 

I think if we're going to learn the origin of the Dark Saber to any big degree, it'll be a movie or TV Series specifically dealing with the ancient Mandalorian Jedi Tarre Vizsla, and his rise to the Jedi Order during the distant Old Republic era.

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, xARACHN1D said:

The whole Darth plagueis story line is amazing and there is nothing you can say to change my mind.

That's a Star Wars Legends story. It's not canon.

 

The canon for him is incredibly limited: He was killed by his apprentice and he could use his Sith power to prevent death.

[xARACHN1D]

1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

That's a Star Wars Legends story. It's not canon.

 

The canon for him is incredibly limited: He was killed by his apprentice and he could use his Sith power to prevent death.

I was informed that it was canon... People speculate that snoke is actually plagueis

[dalekphalm]

Just now, Drak3 said:

That's a Star Wars Legends story. It's not canon.

 

The canon for him is incredibly limited: He was killed by his apprentice and he could use his Sith power to prevent death.

They'll likely start expanding that stuff after Rise of Skywalker is out of theatres over the next few years.

 

The nice thing about Legends is that it never went anywhere. It's still there. I can still pick up Heir to the Empire and read it. The new Disney Canon can never take that away.

 

And I would not even be surprised if eventually they make new Legends content (clearly labeled) - considering they did put out a new issue of the original Legends Marvel Star Wars series.

[Rohith_Kumar_Sp]

Star Wars for Fantasy and music and lore
Star Trek for Fiction and the crew bantering. 

oh also 
 

 

[dalekphalm]

Just now, xARACHN1D said:

I was informed that it was canon... People speculate that snoke is actually plagueis

Plagueis himself is Canon, as Palps talking about him during Revenge of the Sith makes it so.

 

But the book of the same name is part of Legends. Some (or perhaps even most) of the events of the book could well still be Canon, but we simply don't know. I suspect a lot of that story will be thrown out and Plagueis will have a different or modified backstory.

[Drak3]

Just now, xARACHN1D said:

I was informed that it was canon... People speculate that snoke is actually plagueis

The books are not. There is a canon Darth Plagueis character, and like the rest of Canon Star Wars, it's very poorly written.

 

1 minute ago, dalekphalm said:

The nice thing about Legends is that it never went anywhere. It's still there. I can still pick up Heir to the Empire and read it. The new Disney Canon can never take that away.

 

And I would not even be surprised if eventually they make new Legends content (clearly labeled) - considering they did put out a new issue of the original Legends Marvel Star Wars series.

The bad thing about Legends is that it is no different than a well written Tumblr fanfic. There's no consistency between many stories.

 

And Disney doesn't make Legends content. At best, they might publish it. Legends is just the umbrella term for all third party works that Disney/Lucasfilm didn't directly tie into canon.

[dalekphalm]

1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

The books are not. There is a canon Darth Plagueis character, and like the rest of Canon Star Wars, it's very poorly written.

It's not say that he's poorly written, since that would imply that there are things written about him. That is not the case. We know next to nothing about him in Canon, so therefore you can't say he's poorly written. The only thing we know about him is from Revenge of the Sith.

1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

The bad thing about Legends is that it is no different than a well written Tumblr fanfic. There's no consistency between many stories.

 

1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

And Disney doesn't make Legends content.

They don't make old Legends, since that was all done under previous ownership deals (Most of old Legends was Del Ray or Bantam, with Marvel, plus LucasArts).

 

But if new Legends content is produced, it would be made by Disney/Lucasfilm or someone they hire.

1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

At best, they might publish it.

They could definitely publish old Legends content.

1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

Legends is just the umbrella term for all third party works that Disney/Lucasfilm didn't directly tie into canon.

Legends is the term for what we used to call the Expanded Universe - anything that Disney didn't decide to bring into Canon with the buyout (AFAIK the only thing they brought into Canon was Clone Wars because it was still on air).

 

But more specifically, what I meant is that Marvel created a new Legends comic issue for the main Star Wars comic run - this was done at the time that Disney owned both Marvel and Star Wars - therefore you can say that "Disney made it" in this context.

 

If content like that is popular enough, I can definitely see them creating more new Legends content (Eg: continuing the storyline after the Fate of the Jedi series, or continuing the KOTOR era storyline).

[steelo]

33 minutes ago, xARACHN1D said:

Disney Messed up star wars. Nuff said.

110% agree

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, dalekphalm said:

We know next to nothing about him in Canon, so therefore you can't say he's poorly written.

17 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

The canon for him is incredibly limited: He was killed by his apprentice and he could use his Sith power to prevent death.

He's a poorly written throw away. You remove him from Revenge of the Sith, and the story isn't affected. Sidious is still capable of lying about saving Padame, and there is no reason for the audience or Anakin to think that the dark side of the force isn't capable of that.

[dalekphalm]

2 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

He's a poorly written throw away.

He's a throwaway character sure, but that doesn't inherently make him poorly written. Not that Star Wars (any of them) don't have plenty of examples of bad writing.

2 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

You remove him from Revenge of the Sith, and the story isn't affected. Sidious is still capable of lying about saving Padame, and there is no reason for the audience or Anakin to think that the dark side of the force isn't capable of that.

All true - it was just an easy way to explain the narrative. Palps wanted Anakin to think the Dark Side could save Padme - how that dark side would do that is ultimately irrelevant.

[steelo]

IMO, Star trek seems to be more technology focused and depicts how it can either help or destroy you, whereas Star Wars is more like a sci-fi soap opera with much 'deeper' personal story lines. Personally, I prefer star trek (I grew up in the 80's and 90's and have seen every episode of TNG multiple times)

 

Both have some very cool elements.

[xARACHN1D]

Me at 10 years old = "oh cool Wightsabers"

Me at 16 years old = "WTF I cannot believe he just overtook the entire senate."

[Euchre]

Glad to see people saying 'both', and even the Babylon 5 reference - I was thinking "Dune?", or that a Firefly faithful would appear. There's a lot more to sci-fi/fantasy, space based, high tech fiction than just the 'Stars'.

 

As for all the discussion of what went wrong with Star Wars, the real cause is basically the same as the problems with Star Trek - they did not follow a proper continuity. Canon only matters much if it can properly flow from one part of the franchise universe to another, and that's what you call continuity. The 'reboot' trend is wrecking a LOT of franchises.

 

With Star Wars, it all started with Lucas making 2 moves that started stumbling the whole deal. One was his own artistic obsession, trying to constantly refine things that were already established - can we say "Han shot first"? He almost didn't give us the prequels, because he was so caught up in his own revisionist thinking about the original trilogy. Shortly after the prequels, he said he'd hung it up again and wouldn't make the sequels. Only the purchase by Disney made them truly possible. All the open criticisms you see from Lucas now about where Star Wars has gone is largely based on his own torments over trying to refine and revise his art to the never achievable perfection. Lucas' second mistake was getting a bit too loose with fan expansion acceptance. When he basically said just about anything fans (and licensed writers, for that matter) made was pretty much canon, he lost control of much of the universe. Now you've got people complaining about 'canon' that he never created nor controlled being 'violated'. Huge, huge mistake. This is why Disney has Kevin Feige curating the whole of the MCU - nobody is going to screw up the continuity there, if he can prevent it.

 

Star Trek fell victim to expansion, which led to too many directors and producers wanting their own special interpretations and twists on the franchise, and inevitably led to failures in continuity. Retcon as hard as you can, some things you can't fix. JJ Abrams can be a brilliant director, but good lord can he also take a franchise someone else created and send it totally off the rails.

[dizmo]

I'm more of a Star Trek fan. I cannot wait for the new one.

However, as far as space shows in general go, The Expanse has been fucking solid.

[steelo]

5 hours ago, Euchre said:

Glad to see people saying 'both', and even the Babylon 5 reference - I was thinking "Dune?", or that a Firefly faithful would appear. There's a lot more to sci-fi/fantasy, space based, high tech fiction than just the 'Stars'.

 

As for all the discussion of what went wrong with Star Wars, the real cause is basically the same as the problems with Star Trek - they did not follow a proper continuity. Canon only matters much if it can properly flow from one part of the franchise universe to another, and that's what you call continuity. The 'reboot' trend is wrecking a LOT of franchises.

 

With Star Wars, it all started with Lucas making 2 moves that started stumbling the whole deal. One was his own artistic obsession, trying to constantly refine things that were already established - can we say "Han shot first"? He almost didn't give us the prequels, because he was so caught up in his own revisionist thinking about the original trilogy. Shortly after the prequels, he said he'd hung it up again and wouldn't make the sequels. Only the purchase by Disney made them truly possible. All the open criticisms you see from Lucas now about where Star Wars has gone is largely based on his own torments over trying to refine and revise his art to the never achievable perfection. Lucas' second mistake was getting a bit too loose with fan expansion acceptance. When he basically said just about anything fans (and licensed writers, for that matter) made was pretty much canon, he lost control of much of the universe. Now you've got people complaining about 'canon' that he never created nor controlled being 'violated'. Huge, huge mistake. This is why Disney has Kevin Feige curating the whole of the MCU - nobody is going to screw up the continuity there, if he can prevent it.

 

Star Trek fell victim to expansion, which led to too many directors and producers wanting their own special interpretations and twists on the franchise, and inevitably led to failures in continuity. Retcon as hard as you can, some things you can't fix. JJ Abrams can be a brilliant director, but good lord can he also take a franchise someone else created and send it totally off the rails.

 

JJ Abrams decimated Star Trek. Now CBS is essentially giving the middle finger to all die hard Trek fans and rewriting the series to meet their PC/LGBTQ requirements.I'm all for fairness and equality, but I don't need every 'new' show to shove it down my throat. Anyways, 'Discovery' doesn't feel like ST at all...it's so dark and dreary and feels like CBS had to shove current political talking points into the show.

[dalekphalm]

2 minutes ago, steelo said:

 

JJ Abrams decimated Star Trek. Now CBS is essentially giving the middle finger to all die hard Trek fans and rewriting the series to meet their PC/LGBTQ quotas. I'm all for fairness and equality, but I don't need every 'new' show to shove it down my throat. Sorry for going off topic for a second there...LOL

I never understood this argument.

 

Star Trek was always shoving PC/"SJW"/LGBT, etc worldviews down peoples throats.

[steelo]

4 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

Star Trek was always shoving PC/"SJW"/LGBT, etc worldviews down peoples throats.

Not really. Yes, I caught the (very minor compared to today) 'liberal' vibe from TNG in the 90's but it didn't bother me as the show was still fun and entertaining.

 

Discovery is a dreary, poorly written mess CBS uses as a means of satisfying certain groups. It is the shining example of how 'off the rails' American media networks have become when it comes to infusing political correctness into EVERYTHING and cramming it down the viewers throats. I consider myself to be a reasonable person and try not to judge others before judging myself. Frankly, I find it insulting that producers have such a condescending attitude that they feel they need to provide us viewers an 'after school special' lesson on equality.

[Euchre]

2 minutes ago, steelo said:

JJ Abrams decimated Star Trek. Now CBS is essentially giving the middle finger to all die hard Trek fans

As for the first part, please tell me you clicked the link, and got the reference.

 

The second part? You forgot to add "while digging deeply into their pockets to find out how much they screwed over the franchise."

[steelo]

4 hours ago, Euchre said:

As for the first part, please tell me you clicked the link, and got the reference.

 

The second part? You forgot to add "while digging deeply into their pockets to find out how much they screwed over the franchise."

Just caught the link...I didnt see it the first time reading