Intel confirms that its discrete Xe GPUs will release in 2020

[leadeater]

6 minutes ago, mr moose said:

if that does happen then we should find out why first as It may have nothing to do with RTX.  

It won't have anything to do with RTX.

 

6 minutes ago, mr moose said:

it hasn't happened yet with RT so people shouldn't be claiming it is.

If games require dedicated efforts to optimize rasterization then it stand to reason the same is true for ray tracing, this become even more true when the technology itself is extremely new and has never been implemented before (which is the case for AMD).

 

You should be looking at it the other way round, just because a driver supports a feature does not mean a game will implement it (historically true) and even if the comparable feature is supported on competitor vendor doesn't mean you can use it on another.

 

AMD hasn't had drivers that support ray tracing so there should be no expectation that a game developed during that time would have done any implementation efforts to support it.

[FezBoy]

On 10/13/2019 at 8:16 AM, TechyBen said:

Wait what? "DXR [can run] on any GPU" and "to use RTX you need supported hardware".

 

Is RTX not NVidia's proprietary solution? Does BF and TombRaider use DXR on DirectX12 or proprietary RTX?

Not fanboying as others have accused, as I feel the same over AMD hairworks or Intel 4k DRM (though I think in Intels case they were just hardware supporting before AMD got there?).

 

If AMD/Intel can plug into those games then that's great. If it's like PhysX, that's really annoying.

DXR: DirectX Raytracing;  This is the software layer that game engines use to tell the graphics card what to raytrace, just like DirectX 12 is what the game engine uses to tell the graphics card what to render.

 

RTX: This is Nvidia's proprietary hardware acceleration solution for raytracing.  It does the processing.

 

Any card can use DXR if its drivers support it.  Nvidia's drivers for RTX cards assign the raytracing processing to the RTX hardware.

 

To answer your question, BF and Tomb Raider use DXR on DirectX12 AND RTX, if run on an Nvidia card.  DXR tells RTX what it is supposed to be doing.

[mr moose]

5 minutes ago, FezBoy said:

DXR: DirectX Raytracing;  This is the software layer that game engines use to tell the graphics card what to raytrace, just like DirectX 12 is what the game engine uses to tell the graphics card what to render.

 

RTX: This is Nvidia's proprietary hardware acceleration solution for raytracing.  It does the processing.

 

Any card can use DXR if its drivers support it.  Nvidia's drivers for RTX cards assign the raytracing processing to the RTX hardware.

 

To answer your question, BF and Tomb Raider use DXR on DirectX12 AND RTX, if run on an Nvidia card.  DXR tells RTX what it is supposed to be doing.

I feel like this needs to be pinned at the top of every RT thread that gets posted.   Or at least a similar version of it, then we can just point to the pin instead of having 20 of the same posts.

[RejZoR]

Everyone understands that shit. No one can tell for sure whether "RTX" powered game will also run on NON-NVIDIA card. Games thats ay "DXR" in the settings are self explanatory. Those that may say "RTX" in the settings do not. Even if RTX runs on top of DXR, game may not expose it to the drivers because NVIDIA and their dumb locking down nonsense. This is what ppl are asking, not what RTX runs on. We all know it's DXR...

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Everyone understands that shit. No one can tell for sure whether "RTX" powered game will also run on NON-NVIDIA card. Games thats ay "DXR" in the settings are self explanatory. Those that may say "RTX" in the settings do not. Even if RTX runs on top of DXR, game may not expose it to the drivers because NVIDIA and their dumb locking down nonsense. This is what ppl are asking, not what RTX runs on. We all know it's DXR...

 Please see this post:

 

23 minutes ago, FezBoy said:

DXR: DirectX Raytracing;  This is the software layer that game engines use to tell the graphics card what to raytrace, just like DirectX 12 is what the game engine uses to tell the graphics card what to render.

 

RTX: This is Nvidia's proprietary hardware acceleration solution for raytracing.  It does the processing.

 

Any card can use DXR if its drivers support it.  Nvidia's drivers for RTX cards assign the raytracing processing to the RTX hardware.

 

To answer your question, BF and Tomb Raider use DXR on DirectX12 AND RTX, if run on an Nvidia card.  DXR tells RTX what it is supposed to be doing.

 

[RejZoR]

It LITERALLY answers NOTHING. It's almost as if you don't know NVIDIA's MO at all... Because purposely locking things to NVIDIA cards has never ever be done before, right?

[Lurick]

23 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

It LITERALLY answers NOTHING. It's almost as if you don't know NVIDIA's MO at all... Because purposely locking things to NVIDIA cards has never ever be done before, right?

RTX is not like PhysX. RTX is just Nvidia's answer for processing ray traced requests via dedicated hardware bits in the GPU. You can only "RTX Power" a game so much as you optimize it for that particular hardware Nvidia offers.

[Blademaster91]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

I feel like this needs to be pinned at the top of every RT thread that gets posted.   Or at least a similar version of it, then we can just point to the pin instead of having 20 of the same posts.

I agree, people seem to be misunderstanding RT for RTX, which then turns into an "Nvidia bad" argument even though the application is DirectX Raytracing (DXR). And as everyone else also mentioned every card that has the capability in software or hardware can run DXR, not just gpu's with RTX branding because GTX cards can run raytracing just not as well.

[Arika]

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

It LITERALLY answers NOTHING. It's almost as if you don't know NVIDIA's MO at all... Because purposely locking things to NVIDIA cards has never ever be done before, right?

how have you been on the forum for this long, but still don't quote people when responding to them?

 

It's almost as if you don't know how RTX/DXR works at all. 

 

[Kisai]

13 hours ago, Crowbar said:

A lot. I'd go into more detail but you'd fly into a rant about standards and how everyone should bow down to microshaft for gracing the human race with such a feature despite all it's flaws.

 

The more important question is: what's wrong with Vulkan?

 

Completely open and therefore utilized and compatible across the board. Even unoptimized games run better on it but adoption is slow because microshaft...

 

Vulkan is VERY VERY close to metal. You can start an OpenGL program with like 12 lines of code, but to start a Vulkan program is over 1000 lines.

 

With that said, there are Raytracing extensions to Vulkan. But they're nVidia extensions: VK_NV_ray_tracing

 

At some point we are going to see a convergence with Vulkan, not because DirectX is bad for not being cross-platform, but because OpenGL has no further evolution path, and too much stuff is left to incomplete drivers on some platforms. That is why Apple decided to depreciate it for Metal, yet Vulkan almost nearly maps to Metal. Unfortunately a lot of middleware has kinda yawned at supporting Vulkan:

 

https://github.com/moai/moai-dev/tree/feature/vulkan , Moai has an actively developed vulkan branch supporting vulkan, but it does not compile

https://github.com/godotengine/godot/tree/vulkan , GoDot has an actively developed vulkan branch, but won't be released before 4.0

https://github.com/MonoGame/MonoGame/milestones , Monogame seems uninterested in supporting Vulkan or DX12

https://github.com/EQMG/Acid is a Vulkan-only game engine

https://github.com/bkaradzic/bgfx is a multi-platform, multi-API low level engine

https://blogs.unity3d.com/2018/05/07/unity-2018-2-beta-whats-new/ Unity only supports Vulkan as of 2018.2

https://twitter.com/billykhan/status/1028133659168186368 ID Tech 7 supports only Vulkan

https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/blog/unreal-engine-4-21-released Unreal Engine 4.21 defaults to Vulkan on Linux

https://github.com/cocos2d/cocos2d-x/tree/v4 Cocos2D-x No interest in supporting Vulkan (used by many mobile games)

https://github.com/xenko3d/xenko Xenko supports Vulkan, current branch has build issues.

 

That just covers what I know off the top of my head. At the current state of things, RayTracing is only available with proprietary extensions.

https://github.com/godotengine/godot/issues/27355

Quote

• Currently the Vulkan extension for raytracing is Nvidia-only. I don't think we should waste developers time to implement Nvidia-only solutions (same applies for CUDA, OptiX and all closed, non-standard- proprietary Nvidia frameworks).
• Radeon Rays is definitively the way to go for light baking (because it doesn't use CUDA and works on all CPU/GPU) but not the state of the art for real-time. For real-time we really need to use the dedicated hardware.
• Currently only Nvidia offers dedicated hardware for raytracing. I hope AMD will follow and that the Vulkan extension for raytracing will get standardized to work on both cards.
• Realtime path-tracing only make sense if we denoise it. There has been the hype over Optix because it is AI based but actually it might be an overkill. The best results currently have been reached with classical denoising with gradient-based temporal accumulation (https://cg.ivd.kit.edu/atf.php).

 

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

It LITERALLY answers NOTHING. It's almost as if you don't know NVIDIA's MO at all... Because purposely locking things to NVIDIA cards has never ever be done before, right?

Only because you refuse to accept reality.

 

you said right hafter 3 people explained in plain english that BF5 is not locked to RTX, and is only DXR and you strill said this:

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

Everyone understands that shit.

Apparently you don;t because you are still saying things like this:

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

No one can tell for sure whether "RTX" powered game will also run on NON-NVIDIA card.

Yes they can, if the game is not written specifically for RTX and uses DXR then other card can run it assuming the other vendors allow it.  You have been told this several times yet you are still asking as if the answers are wrong.

 

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

Games thats ay "DXR" in the settings are self explanatory.

The whole thing is self explanatory. DXR is not RTX. stop conflating the two.

 

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

Those that may say "RTX" in the settings do not.

Which titles say RTX in the settings?

 

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

Even if RTX runs on top of DXR, game may not expose it to the drivers because NVIDIA and their dumb locking down nonsense.

You are going to have to post evidence for this, because as everyone has explained to you several times, it is not locked to anything, just because Nvidia drivers use RTX to power the Dxr commands doesn't mean the game can only be run on RTX.  That is not a logical conclusion.

 

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

This is what ppl are asking, not what RTX runs on. We all know it's DXR...

It's already been answered,  everyone else in this thread has understood after explanation and few further queries. You seem to be the only one who refuses to accept the answers.

 

 

 

 

[FezBoy]

2 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Everyone understands that shit. No one can tell for sure whether "RTX" powered game will also run on NON-NVIDIA card. Games thats ay "DXR" in the settings are self explanatory. Those that may say "RTX" in the settings do not. Even if RTX runs on top of DXR, game may not expose it to the drivers because NVIDIA and their dumb locking down nonsense. This is what ppl are asking, not what RTX runs on. We all know it's DXR...

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

It LITERALLY answers NOTHING. It's almost as if you don't know NVIDIA's MO at all... Because purposely locking things to NVIDIA cards has never ever be done before, right?

So you are confusing marketing with actual functionality. Many games have been marketed as "RTX" games. This is because

1. "RTX" was/is a very "buzzwordy" term
2. Nvidia's RTX graphics cards were the only cards that supported DXR

All of these games are DirectX12 DXR games. They were MARKETED as RTX games because that is what the general, non technical, public knew about. As non RTX cards with DXR support come out, the games will be marketed as DXR raytracing games. NOTHING will have changed functionally in the games, other than the developers working on optimizing them for non-RTX hardware.

[Crowbar]

5 hours ago, mr moose said:

I'll ignore the trolling,  there is nothing wrong with vulcan, or openGL or any of the other options out there.  Just pointing out there is nothing intrinsically wrong with DX in this topic.

Ignore it by making a reply? 

 

"I don't like that my view is being called out so I'll deem it trolling"..............

 

Intrinsic how? There's a better solution in every aspect but because microshaft made it a "standard" it's some how important? Funny thing about DX12 is that most games actually run worse then the previous iteration. How is this an improvement?

[Kisai]

2 hours ago, FezBoy said:

So you are confusing marketing with actual functionality. Many games have been marketed as "RTX" games. This is because

1. "RTX" was/is a very "buzzwordy" term
2. Nvidia's RTX graphics cards were the only cards that supported DXR

All of these games are DirectX12 DXR games. They were MARKETED as RTX games because that is what the general, non technical, public knew about. As non RTX cards with DXR support come out, the games will be marketed as DXR raytracing games. NOTHING will have changed functionally in the games, other than the developers working on optimizing them for non-RTX hardware.

The games are marketed that way because they use the nVidia gameworks libraries. 

https://developer.nvidia.com/gameworks-action

https://developer.nvidia.com/gameworks-ray-tracing

 

That is a marketing thing. Developers who use gameworks but nope out of the marketing are still using using the same API's. Note that nothing in the first list actually advertises ray-tracing, most just advertise HBAO+

[LogicalDrm]

*** Thread locked ***

 

Since last clean up, discussion hasn't really evolved. Plus the poop filter is beeping, time to flush.

 

I'm sure you all return to subject of RTX vs DXR in next thread. With same arguments.