Gamers and BFGDs: A tax on Ignorance and a Letter to Linus

[Tao]

Greetings everyone and dear Linus,


Recently Linus has done a couple of videos showcasing the new Big Format Gaming Displays (BFGDs):

One from ASUS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ci7mFBuShQ

And one from Alienware: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3oqktdx2a8

Naturally Linus doing videos on new tech is what he is all about, but he fails to cover all aspects of the discussion surrounding these new types of display. Actually there is no discussion when there ought to be.  Unfortunately, gamers are living in an age of ignorance, and because of this, they are being exploited by manufacturers and are paying a 'PC Master Race tax' on inferior products.  Tech reviewers such as Linus (and Jay is guilty of this too) is that they are failing to step back and look at the overall picture and educate gamers on the pros and cons of these new devices.  Jay was actually "WOWed" by the ASUS BFGD and was still citing old rhetoric about TVs being inferior, but carrying on:

Let me explain:

This year's generation of TVs not only have better price/performance over higher end gaming monitors, they are either on par with, or have SURPASSED monitors in technology in some cases.  You can get a 120hz native TV for less than $2000 and enjoy a larger screen size. Input lag is at worst a minor issue (or better than monitors in some cases), and TVs are otherwise better than monitors overall for less price.  The only outstanding issue is not all of this year's TVs have HDMI 2.1, but next year they should all have it and there will be little contest as to which market has a superior product.  There is also a HDMI 2.1 to DP 1.4 adapter coming out shortly, making the lack of display port to connect to current graphics cards a temporary issue.  Also I am sure that the TVs that still have some issue with input lag will have this more or less sorted out with the new generation this spring.

In particular let us look at the LG C9 OLED Tv (the 55 inch specifically @ $1600usd).  I mention this TV specifically because it is arguably the best gaming display currently available while OLED is supposed to be the more expensive technology, yet this TV is cheaper than pretty much all high end  gaming monitors.
This TV is one of the few that does have HDMI 2.1 which means 4k 120hz at 10bit with not only HDR 10 support, but Dolby HDR support as well.  It has 0.3ms pixel response time grey to grey, and 6ms of input lag which is better than the vast majority of monitors.  It does everything the ASUS PG27UQ does, but better, with no IPS glow, for cheaper and 4x the screen size.  Also it probably uses the exact same panel that the Alienware 55 inch OLED monitor uses, or at least a sister panel, doesn't have its brightness nerfed, and has all of the other features the Alienware has (minus display port) for less than half the price.  Presumably the Alienware has its brightness nerfed (and thus can't receive HDR certification) to prevent burn in.  However you can buy a C9, run it as is or nerf the brightness yourself, and if it ever gets burn in anyway, throw it away and buy a new C9 (or LCD TV), and still have money in your pocket over buying the Alienware.

All current high end gaming monitors such as the ASUS PG27UQ are being sold at inflated prices, and the new BFGDs are still compromising on features, yet are being sold for more than twice the price they should be.  The Alienware is a $1000 product at best, not $4000 as it is said to retail at.  Probably the same with the 65" BFGDs due to the VA panel and their bad smearing and input lag. Gamers are paying approximately a 50% ignorance tax on monitors.

We can go further into graphics cards:  Nvidia has been charging inflated prices, while trickling technology addition.  HDMI 2.1 should have been on the latest generation of video cards, but future proofing is not in Nvidia's vocabulary.  Now that TVs are using HDMI 2.1, people will now have to buy new cards to take full advantage of the new tech.  One could say that AMD is probably focusing exclusively on beating Nvidia and Intel, but this could have been a place for them to take the lead in the industry, especially with their cards released later in the year when HDMI 2.1 TVs were already out.

In short:

Linus made a bit of a fuss about giving up his OLED TV, but hasn't even looked at the question of resolving that issue.  This year's TVs are the answer to his question, and are at an affordable price for the amount of tech contained within.  He should have been extremely critical of the price of those BFGDs, but I don't think he has looked at the tech offered by TVs in a while.  Gamers may still criticize slightly high input lag, lack of HDMI 2.1, or even burn in on OLED, but the point is that none of these features are worth a 50% increase in price while loosing some other features.

[WereCatf]

8 minutes ago, Tao said:

It has 0.3ms pixel response time grey to grey, and 6ms of input lag which is better than the vast majority of monitors

Lemme guess: you're quoting numbers from LG's materials, instead of actual measured values? Also, how's the overshoot/undershoot at 120Hz? I just Googled around and actually measured input-lag seems to be around 21ms, for example.

 

Your post comes off as ignorant, when you're the one calling others ignorant.

[Fasauceome]

11 minutes ago, Tao said:

HDMI 2.1 should have been on the latest generation of video cards, but future proofing is not in Nvidia's vocabulary.  Now that TVs are using HDMI 2.1, people will now have to buy new cards to take full advantage of the new tech.

I bet next gen graphics cards will not even have HDMI ports. I can't tell why but card manufacturers have made a few generations now where only one HDMI port is on a GPU, but it's not some kind of "legacy" connector that's barely used, and it would be immensely helpful to have dual HDMI support for many gamers

[Tao]

2 minutes ago, WereCatf said:

Lemme guess: you're quoting numbers from LG's materials, instead of actual measured values? Also, how's the overshoot/undershoot at 120Hz? I just Googled around and actually measured input-lag seems to be around 21ms, for example.

 

Your post comes off as ignorant, when you're the one calling others ignorant.

Nope this has been confirmed by several independent reviewers.  Here is Rtings.com review: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c9-oled You can also see screen shots and look for over or under shoot.  Input lag is 21ms with processing on.  Gaming mode is 6 ms.

My post is very well informed.  I have been researching this for a while now.  It started as research into a new monitor, but monitors don't make much sense other than size.

[Kilrah]

This has got to be spam, no way there can be 2 very similar lengthy posts about the same TV written in a similar manner, and both just as irrelevant.

 

There are no HDMI2.1 graphics cards at this point and there probably won't be any before a year or so. So this TV is not currently usable as a 4k/120Hz gaming display and thus doesn't fit the requirements for this and the expensive purpose-built gaming monitors showcased get to wear that crown until HDMI2.1 happens regardless of their drawbacks, period.

[Princess Luna]

Bleeding edge niche high end products are 'overpriced' because you can find something 'almost' as good for cheaper.

 

Gee isn't that a first one

 

In all fairness both LTT and Jay do not get anywhere near on the same level as Hardware Unboxed on this kind of content, HW will measure pretty much everything measurable about the display and give a far more in depth educated review of it.

 

That said, not all youtube channels must be the same, there's an entertainment value watching Linus struggle hooking up glorious ROG TV that is enjoyable to watch by many.

 

It's a pick your poison type of situation, if you want something go where they provide it to you.

[Tao]

8 minutes ago, Kilrah said:

This has got to be spam, no way there can be 2 very similar lengthy posts about the same TV written in a similar manner, and both just as irrelevant.

 

There are no HDMI2.1 graphics cards at this point and there probably won't be any before a year or so. So this TV is not currently usable as a 4k/120Hz gaming display and thus doesn't fit the requirements for this and the expensive purpose-built gaming monitors showcased get to wear that crown until HDMI2.1 happens regardless of their drawbacks, period.

There are a few people who see this same discrepancy.  'only' 2 are speaking out about it on this forum.

[Tao]

7 minutes ago, Princess Luna said:

Bleeding edge niche high end products are 'overpriced' because you can find something 'almost' as good for cheaper.

 

Gee isn't that a first one

 

In all fairness both LTT and Jay do not get anywhere near on the same level as Hardware Unboxed on this kind of content, HW will measure pretty much everything measurable about the display and give a far more in depth educated review of it.

 

That said, not all youtube channels must be the same, there's an entertainment value watching Linus struggle hooking up glorious ROG TV that is enjoyable to watch by many.

 

It's a pick your poison type of situation, if you want something go where they provide it to you.

Actually these products are BETTER not almost as good.

Yes I agree that there is some entertainment value.  However Linus is being sent these items for review, and his videos are being taken as a review.  One of his shticks is to outright crucify inferior products, and there was plenty of room for him to have some criticism in these videos.  I like how he does just do a use case review, and cites any measurements found by other reviewers in passing as given, but there should still be a cost analysis in there somewhere.

[Kilrah]

Some his videos have cost analysis, some are about budget setups, some just show the "most crazy and expensive you can get" like this one... your choice to select those you want to take as reference and those you don't.

 

[TempestCatto]

Wanna know my two cents? I don't trust smart devices of any kind, smart TV's included. So I'd love to buy one of these displays to avoid having "smart" shit in my house. All I want is a display. That's it. Nothingfuckingelse. These large "gaming" displays fit the bill that I charge. So I don't give a flying fuck about anything else here. I want a "dumb" display, I can buy a "dumb" display, I am happy. Simple.

 

I could also buy a commercial display, but those aren't all that good for watching TV or playing games. Those are more for static things like signage.

[spartaman64]

are those tvs actually 120 hz or are they just injecting black frames in between actual frames

[Tao]

Just now, TempestCatto said:

Wanna know my two cents? I don't trust smart devices of any kind, smart TV's included. So I'd love to buy one of these displays to avoid having "smart" shit in my house. All I want is a display. That's it. Nothingfuckingelse. These large "gaming" displays fit the bill that I charge. So I don't give a flying fuck about anything else here. I want a "dumb" display, I can buy a "dumb" display, I am happy. Simple.

Yeah I feel the same way.  However the main point here is that these displays are at grossly inflated prices.  Paying $3000 extra for the Alienware is excessive.  At least it is well worth keeping a smart TV unplugged from the internet.

[Tao]

2 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

are those tvs actually 120 hz or are they just injecting black frames in between actual frames

All flagship TVs are 120hz native.  This fake high refresh rate nonsense is a thing of the past really (lower end TVs probably still have it).

The only downside are those that are still HDMI 2.0 are locked at 4k 60hz.  120hz at 1080p or 1440p.  The LG C9 is 120hz, and is probably the same panel used by Alienware since LG makes the vast majority of OLED panels.

[spartaman64]

5 minutes ago, TempestCatto said:

Wanna know my two cents? I don't trust smart devices of any kind, smart TV's included. So I'd love to buy one of these displays to avoid having "smart" shit in my house. All I want is a display. That's it. Nothingfuckingelse. These large "gaming" displays fit the bill that I charge. So I don't give a flying fuck about anything else here. I want a "dumb" display, I can buy a "dumb" display, I am happy. Simple.

 

I could also buy a commercial display, but those aren't all that good for watching TV or playing games. Those are more for static things like signage.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/talkingtech/2019/02/21/why-tvs-so-cheap-now-your-smart-tv-spying-you-money/2910013002/

[Tao]

6 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/talkingtech/2019/02/21/why-tvs-so-cheap-now-your-smart-tv-spying-you-money/2910013002/

Yeah they have been doing that for a while.  The answer is to keep it unplugged, but many don't because they use the built in apps.  Ironically however, a gamer will probably hook a TV up to a PC and thus have no need for the apps, and can leave it unplugged from the net.