95% of Worlds ATM's will be impacted by the death of Windows XP

[SqrtOfNegOne]

I can see this can go on ad nauseam.  Arguing semantics seems to be your specialty.  You're good at it.

 

Enjoy the rest of your day.

[Titanicium]

hmm... why did they choose windows 7 over windows 8?

 

 

tip:because it's bettah'

 

let the hate begin

 

[Titanicium]

and I thought my school computers having OS X 10.5 was bad...

 

Don't you worry That's still bad

[TymmVonD]

Windows 8 has native touchscreen support. Most of the ATMs I've used are still buttons/keys. Redboxes are touchscreen.

[Thunderjolt]

I actually think an ATM running of windows 8 would look pretty freaking sleek and sexy.

[jrfox87]

Nope, I don't believe so.

 

Keep in mind this is one of the major Canadian banks.

Which bank?

[mr moose]

Wouldn't the costs over many ATMs become negligible? There are many applications where Linux is used over Windows. Also how does the costs of licensing windows compare in the cost of designing and implementing Linux.

 

As for security. That's true.

If the cost was negligible and a linux unit was better, then they wouldn't be using xp,  we are talking about banks here with multi-billion dollar quarterly profits, They know what they are doing. 

[TITPB]

honestly too lazy to look if someone has mentioned it but these atm's probably use XP embeded which has a different end of support date than the consumer version of XP like 2015 iirc

 

this shit still needs to get fixed but it isn't as soon as the article leads you to believe...

 

on the other hand some of the lab computers in my university need to get fixed before... whenever support ends

[OPSJono]

WIN 8.1 FTW NOOBS . but no like, win xp should of died like 4 years ago

Using a Macbook Pro to write this

FIGHT ME BRO

 

Sorry, had too, your signature inspired me.

 

But really, Windows 8/8.1 is good enough IF you have a viable use for all the touch screen features.

I'm not a fan of touch screens, I much prefer mouse/keyboard, and thus Windows 7 (for gaming) - I've recently made the switch to this 2010 Macbook Pro with OSX 10.9 Mavericks and DIY upgraded SSD and RAM.

I'm curious if you've used OSX on a Macbook Pro though, or hate it on principal (like I used to, until I actually gave it a shot at being my main workstation.)

------- Sorry off topic there.

 

I too, like many here is also surprised to learn ATM's used a Windows OS, never mind XP which was just broken until SP3 was released.

I used to work at a cinema where their POS software was written for windows and they used XP as the OS too. - Again no idea why 7's cheap enough. (8 wasn't out at that point).

But Windows 8/8.1 would make sense for any Touch-only system.

[Ertman]

If the cost was negligible and a linux unit was better, then they wouldn't be using xp, we are talking about banks here with multi-billion dollar quarterly profits, They know what they are doing.

While their money does allow them to buy a certain level of expertise, it doesn't always mean they make the best decisions. The people making or influencing the decisions have their own biases, possibly using flawed decision criteria and they can also make mistakes.

I am not saying going with xp was a bad decision at the time, or even in hindsight, just that the lifetime costs would not necessarily favor one side or the other and the initial investment would not over such a large deployment would probably not be that different. Both systems are equally capable of performing the tasks. I am not stating that they should have used linux, I am disagreeing with the concept it could not be used for fiscal reasons, and that they could have used it with little real problems.

It is surprising that there are letting it go this long even if it is using xp embedded. How hackable would those ATMs even be? Would XP exploits become less relevant with time?

[mr moose]

While their money does allow them to buy a certain level of expertise, it doesn't always mean they make the best decisions. The people making or influencing the decisions have their own biases, possibly using flawed decision criteria and they can also make mistakes.

I am not saying going with xp was a bad decision at the time, or even in hindsight, just that the lifetime costs would not necessarily favor one side or the other and the initial investment would not over such a large deployment would probably not be that different. Both systems are equally capable of performing the tasks.

It is surprising that there are letting it go this long.

 

I'm not surprised at all,  Changing the os on an atm is not going to make them more money (the OS on the local atm doesn't really effect who I bank with), only cost them, so the longer they can make the old one last the less money they are actually spending long term.   Again, if they have a volume license with MS to supply the os and all the security updates then they don't need to employ someone to do that. Think of it this way, if they were to create their own OS from linux they would need to employ a team of coders to write and maintain their own os, as well as oversea:

 

hardware validation

network compatability

service technician training

as well as have all their ATM software recoded for the new OS and have it compatible with existing networks.

 

Compared to the current system where MS looks after the os and security updates, Their ATM software developer looks after implementation and the technicians are trained by either MS or the ATM software developers. All the bank has to do is buy two volume licenses and hold someone else accountable. It's like insurance and outsourcing all rolled into one.

[Ertman]

I'm not surprised at all,  Changing the os on an atm is not going to make them more money (the OS on the local atm doesn't really effect who I bank with), only cost them, so the longer they can make the old one last the less money they are actually spending long term.   Again, if they have a volume license with MS to supply the os and all the security updates then they don't need to employ someone to do that. Think of it this way, if they were to create their own OS from linux they would need to employ a team of coders to write and maintain their own os, as well as oversea:

 

hardware validation

network compatability

service technician training

as well as have all their ATM software recoded for the new OS and have it compatible with existing networks.

 

Compared to the current system where MS looks after the os and security updates, Their ATM software developer looks after implementation and the technicians are trained by either MS or the ATM software developers. All the bank has to do is buy two volume licenses and hold someone else accountable. It's like insurance and outsourcing all rolled into one.

 

I know why they haven't updated, I meant its surprising that they haven't already updated given "security concerns". They are actually likely working on it right now.

 

I think you are confusing with switching to what-if they had used linux to start with. The difference between implementing using linux/XP is summed up with the following… The Operating System, and availability of expertise. Everything else would be the same. Whether your paying Microsoft and a 3rd Party or in-house (User Interface, backend communications) for an ATM solution or you paying just a 3rd party or in-house for an integrated solution, all the other stuff (including hardware validation, network compatibility, service technician training would still have to be performed by someone. Granted the costs structures could be different, but how that factors may depend on the decision criteria.

 

As for recoding. That is a real possibility if moving from Windows XP to whatever Windows system they would be using next. You still have to oversee all the same testing and training that you would with a switch. The training might be less problematic, but it is not guaranteed the costs would not be similar.

 

The Operating System is not necessarily the important factor in setting up an ATM system.

[mr moose]

I know why they haven't updated, I meant its surprising that they haven't already updated given "security concerns". They are actually likely working on it right now.

 

I think you are confusing with switching to what-if they had used linux to start with. The difference between implementing using linux/XP is summed up with the following… The Operating System, and availability of expertise. Everything else would be the same. Whether your paying Microsoft and a 3rd Party or in-house (User Interface, backend communications) for an ATM solution or you paying just a 3rd party or in-house for an integrated solution, all the other stuff (including hardware validation, network compatibility, service technician training would still have to be performed by someone. Granted the costs structures could be different, but how that factors may depend on the decision criteria.

 

As for recoding. That is a real possibility if moving from Windows XP to whatever Windows system they would be using next. You still have to oversee all the same testing and training that you would with a switch. The training might be less problematic, but it is not guaranteed the costs would not be similar.

 

The Operating System is not necessarily the important factor in setting up an ATM system.

 

I think you need to look up outsourcing and why big business does it. Banks don't write software, so they need to find companies that can do it for them.  I think the problem might be that people think because the Linux is open source that is it cheaper to implement.  The fact of the matter is that it isn't. It's more customizable sure, but customizing takes time and money for a business. To get the same level of support for Linux as you do for windows (remember this is the banking sector and security is essential) they would need to switch to redhat or Suse, a company that offers professional support and updates for all their products.  Then they still need to get ATM software that will run on linux. and retrain the service techs to use Linux.  Keep in mind that the banks will already own volume licenses for windows so the OS in their ATM probably doesn't cost them much at all.

 

EDIT: it might help to not think of ATM's in this case in the same way we think about routers or nas units or other similar hardware, An ATM (whilst automated) is essentially another teller at the bank and thus needs to  be compatible with that environment in nearly every way.

[aidenrelkoff]

Using a Macbook Pro to write this

FIGHT ME BRO

 

Sorry, had too, your signature inspired me.

 

But really, Windows 8/8.1 is good enough IF you have a viable use for all the touch screen features.

I'm not a fan of touch screens, I much prefer mouse/keyboard, and thus Windows 7 (for gaming) - I've recently made the switch to this 2010 Macbook Pro with OSX 10.9 Mavericks and DIY upgraded SSD and RAM.

I'm curious if you've used OSX on a Macbook Pro though, or hate it on principal (like I used to, until I actually gave it a shot at being my main workstation.)

------- Sorry off topic there.

 

I too, like many here is also surprised to learn ATM's used a Windows OS, never mind XP which was just broken until SP3 was released.

I used to work at a cinema where their POS software was written for windows and they used XP as the OS too. - Again no idea why 7's cheap enough. (8 wasn't out at that point).

But Windows 8/8.1 would make sense for any Touch-only system.

 

Actually, you are half right, i agree win 8 is better with touch, but i spend less then .01% of my time on the metro screen, i treat win 8 like win 7. i like it because of the multi tasking and win 8 is 2-3 times faster then win 7 on boot up and just overall. my pc gets to the login screen from a boot up on a HDD in 12 secs win 7 on a HDD is about 25-35 seconds

[Chevaishr]

hmm... why did they choose windows 7 over windows 8?

 

 

tip:because it's bettah'

 

let the hate begin

insert something hate related here*

 

in trinidad i have no idea what atms run but they all work really fast 

[voaz]

Now throw an SSD in each of them atms.

[antoainb]

I think Windows XP Embedded will have support until 2018 and (here in PT) most of them use it. If not one of three things will happen:

1. ATMs will use Linux
2. ATMs will upgrade to other Windows versions (Windows 7)
3. Microsoft will extend support for a few more years.

[Ertman]

I think you need to look up outsourcing and why big business does it. Banks don't write software, so they need to find companies that can do it for them.  I think the problem might be that people think because the Linux is open source that is it cheaper to implement.  The fact of the matter is that it isn't. It's more customizable sure, but customizing takes time and money for a business. To get the same level of support for Linux as you do for windows (remember this is the banking sector and security is essential) they would need to switch to redhat or Suse, a company that offers professional support and updates for all their products.  Then they still need to get ATM software that will run on linux. and retrain the service techs to use Linux.  Keep in mind that the banks will already own volume licenses for windows so the OS in their ATM probably doesn't cost them much at all.

 

EDIT: it might help to not think of ATM's in this case in the same way we think about routers or nas units or other similar hardware, An ATM (whilst automated) is essentially another teller at the bank and thus needs to  be compatible with that environment in nearly every way.

 

 

Your reply is not relevant to my post. You were the one who was talking about banks making the software. And I quote "Think of it this way, if they were to create their own OS from linux they would need to employ a team of coders to write and maintain their own os, as well as oversea:" I specifically stated "3rd Party"... aka outsourcing. There is more, but clearly this discussion is not rational to continue.

[mr moose]

Your reply is not relevant to my post. You were the one who was talking about banks making the software. And I quote "Think of it this way, if they were to create their own OS from linux they would need to employ a team of coders to write and maintain their own os, as well as oversea:" I specifically stated "3rd Party"... aka outsourcing. There is more, but clearly this discussion is not rational to continue.

Of course I was, you asked why they don't use linux, I simply explaining that because if they were to use a linux distro for their ATMs then they would have to code it themselves or they would have to pay someone to  do it. Either way they would have to pay for someone to create something that already exists.

 

I don't understand why it's irrational to you.

 

I was actually starting to get the impression you wanted to keep discussing this until someone told you that Linux was a better option.

[Ertman]

Of course I was, you asked why they don't use linux, I simply explaining that because if they were to use a linux distro for their ATMs then they would have to code it themselves or they would have to pay someone to  do it. Either way they would have to pay for someone to create something that already exists.

 

I don't understand why it's irrational to you.

 

I was actually starting to get the impression you wanted to keep discussing this until someone told you that Linux was a better option.

No, my position was that ATMs are potentially platform agnostic, and that the perceived value of the Windows OS is only a perceived value, and that ATMs could realistically go either way with similar costs. The actual discussion has become irrational for me, as you would repeat things back to me that I have already acknowledged and/or stated while ignoring valid counter-points and claiming that I need to look up information I have already provided. This shows me that there is no point in discussing the Linux as a viable Operating System for ATMs as you only wished to keep discussing it until I would acknowledge that Windows was the only way to go.

[mr moose]

No, my position was that ATMs are potentially platform agnostic, and that the perceived value of the Windows OS is only a perceived value, and that ATMs could realistically go either way with similar costs. The actual discussion has become irrational for me, as you would repeat things back to me that I have already acknowledged and/or stated while ignoring valid counter-points and claiming that I need to look up information I have already provided. This shows me that there is no point in discussing the Linux as a viable Operating System for ATMs as you only wished to keep discussing it until I would acknowledge that Windows was the only way to go.

I have never and will never say that windows is the only way to go, I am simply saying that for the banks it is the cheapest and or most secure way to go.  I have tried to explain why several possible different ways, I am sorry I can't explain it any better than that.

[Ertman]

I have never and will never say that windows is the only way to go, I am simply saying that for the banks it is the cheapest and or most secure way to go.  I have tried to explain why several possible different ways, I am sorry I can't explain it any better than that.

 

I have tried to explain the invalidness of the that argument. I wish I could explain better, but I can't without getting lost in semantics.

[Coltaine]

http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/20/5326772/windows-xp-powers-95-percent-of-atms-worldwide

 

"Microsoft’s 12-year-old Windows XP operating system powers 95 percent of the world’s automated teller machines, according to NCR, the largest ATM supplier in the US. While the idea of Windows powering ATMs may surprise consumers, XP runs in the background powering the software that bank customers interact with to withdraw money. An upcoming Windows XP support change from Microsoft means ATMs will need to be upgraded and modified throughout 2014. Bloomberg Businessweek reports that the US has 420,000 ATMs, and the majority of them run XP and face a support cutoff from Microsoft soon. On April 8th, Microsoft plans to end support for Windows XP, leaving businesses still using XP, and 95 percent of ATMs, open to security and compliance risks."

 

While Microsoft has been warning customers about the deadline for years, the ATM industry has been slow to react. NCR tells The Verge that the majority of ATMs run the full version of XP, with support ending in April, while some use an Embedded version that's supported until 2016. Most machines will move to Windows 7, but ATM software firm KAL predicts that only 15 percent of US ATMs will be running Windows 7 by April. That leaves thousands of machines running out-of-date software, with some companies opting to purchase custom support contracts with Microsoft to extend the life of Windows XP. Bloomberg Businessweek reports that JPMorgan is one such company buying a one-year extension ahead of its Windows 7 deployment.

 

f you’ve used an ageing ATM recently then you’ll likely be acutely aware of just how slow and cumbersome these machines are. While modern machines include touchscreen support and speedy navigation, older models typically use buttons and a basic user interface that’s frustratingly slow. Windows 7 appears to be the main choice to replace the ageing Windows XP machines, but some machines will require hardware upgrades, while others will need to be scrapped entirely and replaced to support the new OS.

 

JPMorgan admits 3,000 of its 19,000 ATMs will need "enhancements" ahead of the Windows 7 upgrade. These enhancements might be a costly headache for ATM manufacturers and banks, but the improvements are a win for customers who use these machines on a daily basis. While it’s not likely you’ll be able to browse the internet or send emails from ATMs any time soon, their basic functionality could significantly improve thanks to the death of Windows XP.

 

 

[Damikiller37]

Well I guess it's more the fault of the ATM companies that Microsoft... They should have predicted this and they had more than enough time to adapt.

[Luc401]

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