Windows 10 May Reserve Another 7GB For Updates.

[LAwLz]

29 minutes ago, 79wjd said:

If you don't understand the ToS, then you don't have to agree to it. It's still a choice to accept it. I'd also say that someone who agreed to a contract in a different language when there was no immediacy in accepting it (e.g. they could have found a translator, looked up a translation online, etc...) should also be held to the agreement. A person should be responsible for one's own actions. Being a lazy shit isn't a good excuse.

In practice, people don't have a choice. It's like saying it's a choice to have a job. It something you need to function in today's society.

And it's not that people are being lazy. Again, you can't say not spending thousands of hours reading through legal document is "lazy". Have you read the ToS and privacy policies of all the software you use? Did you actually understand every single sentence in them? I am willing to bet that you have not, because no one does.

 

29 minutes ago, 79wjd said:

And in regards to spending thousands of hours, first off, is that most ToS don't change all that much all that often. Secondly, skimming and/or jumping to relevant sections is a thing. It's usually pretty easy to find specific topics in a ToS -- I don't need to read the entire document to understand the privacy policy.

I am just quoting the scientific study on the subject. You can feel free to disagree with that if you want, but you'd be wrong.

And yes, you do need to read the entire document to make sure you actually know what is in there. All sections are relevant because without reading them, you do not know what they contain. The fact that you suggest skimming suggests that you have not read many documents, because they are almost impossible to skim through. Like I said, the Disney Privacy Policy requires the same literacy skill as reading law reviews written by Harvard law graduates and legal experts. Try skimming through that and actually understanding what it says and the implications. I am willing to bet that 99% of people can not do that.

 

29 minutes ago, 79wjd said:

(specific terms of) A ToS should only be invalid if something in it is unreasonable -- asking for your first born, or if its content is intentionally hidden -- e.g. if the privacy policy makes no mention of collecting data but the discussion about what keyboards you're allowed to use do.

Who are you to decide when and what is "unreasonable"? Just because you think something is unreasonable does not mean someone else agrees. Likewise, just because you think something is reasonable doesn't mean it is in someone else's eyes. Luckily for the world, you're not the one making the laws and in many countries we have good consumer protection laws preventing abuse and fraud from these companies.

And what do you classify as "intentionally hidden"? Doesn't deliberately writing it so that it's extremely difficult to read and understand classify as "intentionally hiding" things?

 

If you want to hold people accountable, how about making it a law that ToS and privacy policies has to be written in a way that people can quickly go through them, and let's say written with language simple enough that 90% of people 18 years or older can understand it. Sounds fair right?

[Drak3]

15 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

In practice, people don't have a choice.

False.

 

16 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

It's like saying it's a choice to have a job.

It is.

 

16 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

It something you need to function in today's society.

Again, false.

[79wjd]

9 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

In practice, people don't have a choice. It's like saying it's a choice to have a job. It something you need to function in today's society.

No, it's not. People absolutely have a choice about what OS they use for their personal device. The only place they don't have a choice is on a work computer, but they don't have to put any personal anything on a work computer. In fact, it's frowned upon by many employers.

9 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

And it's not that people are being lazy. Again, you can't say not spending thousands of hours reading through legal document is "lazy". Have you read the ToS and privacy policies of all the software you use? Did you actually understand every single sentence in them? I am willing to bet that you have not, because no one does.

It's either being lazy or not caring enough to bother reading it. In either case, you're choosing not to read it because you don't feel like it. That should void anything in its contents. And again, it's not thousands of hours. I sign up for W10, I spend a couple hours reading it or a few minutes skimming. Then in six months when I sign up for another service, I do the same thing. You're pretending like everyone signs up for everything they'll ever use all at once.

9 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

And yes, you do need to read the entire document to make sure you actually know what is in there. All sections are relevant because without reading them, you do not know what they contain. The fact that you suggest skimming suggests that you have not read many documents, because they are almost impossible to skim through.

They're not impossible to skim through by any means. I've skimmed through quite a few technical documents in one form or another and am very easily able to pick out the information I care about. Of course skimming won't let you know if there is privacy data mentioned in a non privacy section, but guess what, that doesn't tend to happen much and there is this magical thing called Ctrl+F. It's very easy to find the bits and pieces you care about. 

9 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Like I said, the Disney Privacy Policy requires the same literacy skill as reading law reviews written by Harvard law graduates and legal experts. Try skimming through that and actually understanding what it says and the implications. I am willing to bet that 99% of people can not do that.

 

Who are you to decide when and what is "unreasonable"? Just because you think something is unreasonable does not mean someone else agrees. Likewise, just because you think something is reasonable doesn't mean it is in someone else's eyes. Luckily for the world, you're not the one making the laws and in many countries we have good consumer protection laws preventing abuse and fraud from these companies.

The document as a whole might not be the easiest to understand, but bits and pieces are certainly understandable by themselves. How they define their data sharing policy is quite simple, either they don't share it or they do. If you can't manage to figure out that, then you're probably not capable of turning on a computer and remembering your password in the first place.

9 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

And what do you classify as "intentionally hidden"? Doesn't deliberately writing it so that it's extremely difficult to read and understand classify as "intentionally hiding" things?

No, because it's very easy to find commentary or ask someone else if you somehow can't figure out the answers to basic questions. 

9 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

If you want to hold people accountable, how about making it a law that ToS and privacy policies has to be written in a way that people can quickly go through them, and let's say written with language simple enough that 90% of people 18 years or older can understand it. Sounds fair right?

ToS should be more intelligible, but the fact that there not doesn't change the fact that someone is still willfully agreeing to something.

[TechyBen]

15 hours ago, mr moose said:

A failed update failed for many reasons but one of them was not because it was forced. I said a few pages ago that the restart should only take 5 minutes, then someone said the last update took 12 hours, but that was because the update borked, not because it was forced.

 

 

Who said this is anything to do with failed update? A forced update is forced. Why should MS decide when I have to stop working? If it also fails, then that's just icing on the cake. XD

 

Quote

I said a few pages ago that the restart should only take 5 minutes

Hahahahaha. Is that some sort of joke?

 

Quote

but that was because the update borked, not because it was forced.

If it was not forced, then it would not matter, I could choose when to.

[mr moose]

8 hours ago, Amazonsucks said:

Why would it still be such a problem in 2019. IBM Z Systems have been seamlessly upgraded since the 1960s, and the modern Z14 can still run programs written for the original System 360 from the 1960s while also running the latest applications.

 

Its a problem because Microsoft is incompetent and they make junk. Windows 10 was a downgrade from 8.1.

you can't compare specifically designed mainframes and server systems to domestic products.    There is a many reasons why update systems across the internet sphere have issues and it's only partially due to corporate complacency.  

 

[mr moose]

3 hours ago, TechyBen said:

Who said this is anything to do with failed update? A forced update is forced. Why should MS decide when I have to stop working? If it also fails, then that's just icing on the cake. XD

 

Hahahahaha. Is that some sort of joke?

 

If it was not forced, then it would not matter, I could choose when to.

you did.  I said

On 1/20/2019 at 9:09 AM, mr moose said:

So instead of it being a 5 minute inconvenience once or twice a year (on the requirement of a restart),  you propose it to be a major inconvenience (no network means no email, no conference, no work, no games and basically being restricted to writing a document) until the updates are installed and a restart occurs anyway?  I'll take the restart only  thank you.

 

There was an update for XP before the outbreak, it really depends whether those XP machines were part of the corporate support or not.  But all of them made up less than 1% regardless.

 

That has been the debate over the last 15 pages, MS left that option in the hands of users and they didn't do it,  when updating is important and people refuse to do it voluntarily (even to the point where you can easily find how to's to get around updates) then the only option left is to force the updates.

to which you responded:

On 1/21/2019 at 2:33 AM, TechyBen said:

5 mins? Some of these updates have taken near entire days! Yes, instead of 2 hours of "updating, boot failed, retry 3 times, rollback update, go into windows, sorry update failed" I'd get a "if you wish to connect to internet, please download *required* security update" and I could still render/work/ backup or whatever I needed in the meantime...

 

That's pretty much a decision we make as a society. We can force people to do things. Is that where we wish to go? As said, we have a viable option. We can force reboots/downloads/updates. Or we can force lack of function until there is an update applied *by the user*. They chose the latter. And that's not going to fly for me. Fine if others do, but I am keeping my autonomy.

 

I am telling you the update failed not because it was forced but for other reasons. Had it run properly it likely would have restarted in 5 minutes (assuming an average system) and you would have been on your way.  

 

It is important that these things are put into perspective when debating such things.   large inconveniences when updates fail will happen regardless if they are forced or not. So it being a failed update is moot to the discussion regarding the necessity of updating.

[TechyBen]

I never complained it failed. If it succeeds or fails, a forced update is not wanted (You love straw men  ). 2 times a year? You sure it's not more? Once a year would still not be wanted!

 

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 Had it run properly it likely would have restarted in 5 minutes (assuming an average system) and you would have been on your way.  

 

(Emphasis mine). Yeah. Just making things up now?

 

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large inconveniences when updates fail will happen regardless if they are forced or not. So it being a failed update is moot to the discussion regarding the necessity of updating.

No. If it is forced, I cannot schedule my backup or workflow. If I get to decide when the update completes/reboots, I get to backup/finish my workflow. *drops mic*.

[mr moose]

59 minutes ago, TechyBen said:

I never complained it failed. If it succeeds or fails, a forced update is not wanted (You love straw men  ). 2 times a year? You sure it's not more? Once a year would still not be wanted!

That's not a strawman, that's a direct response to what you said, And yes, I have had two forced restarts  in the last year.  I turn my pc off every night and have times set for updates so I rarely notice it.

59 minutes ago, TechyBen said:

(Emphasis mine). Yeah. Just making things up now?

 

What? making what up. 

 

59 minutes ago, TechyBen said:

No. If it is forced, I cannot schedule my backup or workflow. If I get to decide when the update completes/reboots, I get to backup/finish my workflow. *drops mic*.

*drops mic* ? ... whatever...

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

3 hours ago, mr moose said:

and have times set for updates so I rarely notice it.

you mean the active hour thing? the stupid thing with that is that it's limited. i can't set it from 7AM to 12PM in case i want my pc to do something while i'm at school and use it when i get back. at 12PM i go to bed so turn it off, it can do updates then. why can't they just allow me to set those times?

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

.....?

you claim you can't set it to update and restart in inactive hours just in case you want it to do something while your at school?  Just set for the days you don't want it for something.   

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

12 hours ago, mr moose said:

you claim you can't set it to update and restart in inactive hours just in case you want it to do something while your at school?  Just set for the days you don't want it for something.   

you can't set it for specific days.

 

and the reason i do that is if i need to run a bunch of VM's at school i wan to remote into my pc so i don't put such a high load on my laptop.

[mr moose]

5 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

you can't set it for specific days.

 

and the reason i do that is if i need to run a bunch of VM's at school i wan to remote into my pc so i don't put such a high load on my laptop.

So you are a busy boy with a bunch of VM's you run every day and you have to access them from school?  righto, try running an OS designed for that and not the cut down home version of windows.  Been over this argument too many times.   Home version is for home people, it isn't designed for people running servers, running 24/7 mission critical workloads, running anything that can't be disturbed because you don't want to set a safe update time.

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

So you are a busy boy with a bunch of VM's you run every day and you have to access them from school?  righto, try running an OS designed for that and not the cut down home version of windows.  Been over this argument too many times.   Home version is for home people, it isn't designed for people running servers, running 24/7 mission critical workloads, running anything that can't be disturbed because you don't want to set a safe update time.

i am in the process of doing that. i've dual-booted my pc with Linux already.

 

the thing is i shouldn't have to pay for a Pro version of Windows just becuase i want to leave my pc on for longer than Microsoft wants me to.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, firelighter487 said:

i am in the process of doing that. i've dual-booted my pc with Linux already.

 

the thing is i shouldn't have to pay for a Pro version of Windows just becuase i want to leave my pc on for longer than Microsoft wants me to.

Why do you think you are entitled to more but not to pay for it?   That's how all products work,  the cut down home version is cheaper for plebs and domestic use and the professional version costs whatever they can charge for it.  

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

Why do you think you are entitled to more but not to pay for it? 

because macOS is free, and Linux is free. i don't like Microsoft placing such a big restriction on the OS while being the only company that charges for it's mainstream OS.

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

because macOS is free, and Linux is free.

Then use Linux, but if that's your logic then GIMP is free also so Adobe should give me the photoshop fior the same price.

2 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

i don't like Microsoft placing such a big restriction on the OS while being the only company that charges for it's mainstream OS.

Please,  Apple build the price of the OS into the hardware.  Andif you think spending the time and money getting a hackintosh to work = free then you are crazy.

 

You are literally complaining that a company shouldn't be able to decide what to charge for it's own product tiers.

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

You are literally complaining that a company shouldn't be able to decide what to charge for it's own product tiers.

they are free to decide that, but i am allowed to dislike their pricing.

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, firelighter487 said:

they are free to decide that, but i am allowed to dislike their pricing.

Disliking how much a company charges is not the same as being entitled to better versions.  Just because you are happy to pay for macOS when you buy a mac or are happy with Linux doesn't mean MS (an unrelated product maker) should have to bow to your desires for better stuff.  

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

Disliking how much a company charges is not the same as being entitled to better versions.  Just because you are happy to pay for macOS when you buy a mac or are happy with Linux doesn't mean MS (an unrelated product maker) should have to bow to your desires for better stuff.  

i don't want to be entitled to better versions. i think that the ability to leave a pc on for longer than a day without risking a forced restart should be included in all versions.

[mr moose]

Just now, firelighter487 said:

i don't want to be entitled to better versions. i think that the ability to leave a pc on for longer than a day without risking a forced restart should be included in all versions.

I'm not asking for a better versions, I am asking for a feature that comes with the better versions.

 

Sorry to break it to you but you can't have everything.  Unless you are rolling in expendable cash, then life is just a bunch of compromises and alternatives at best. 

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

I'm not asking for a better versions, I am asking for a feature that comes with the better versions.

 

Sorry to break it to you but you can't have everything.  Unless you are rolling in expendable cash, then life is just a bunch of compromises and alternatives at best. 

i agree with that. the point is i don't need everyhting else Pro comes with. if there was a version like Home but with the option to disable updates for a few days for €20 more or something i would go for it.

[TechyBen]

31 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Why do you think you are entitled to more but not to pay for it?   That's how all products work,  the cut down home version is cheaper for plebs and domestic use and the professional version costs whatever they can charge for it.  

Sorry, for me to accept any argument you make, you must pay me for it. Do you not know how posting works in this forum? You don't deserve my time or acknowledgement if you're not paying for it. That's how products work.

[TempestCatto]

1 minute ago, firelighter487 said:

i agree with that. the point is i don't need everyhting else Pro comes with. if there was a version like Home but with the option to disable updates for a few days for €20 more or something i would go for it.

You could just disable the Windows Update Service. That's what I do. But then you don't get anything at all (which is what I want personally).

[mr moose]

Just now, firelighter487 said:

i agree with that. the point is i don't need everyhting else Pro comes with. if there was a version like Home but with the option to disable updates for a few days for €20 more or something i would go for it.

I understand.  It sucks for you, but you are in the minority of tech users who would benefit from that one ability (and have the wherewithal to arrange suitable update procedures), meanwhile the other 600Million home users need updates automatic or they become part of botnets and spread malware.

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, TechyBen said:

Sorry, for me to accept any argument you make, you must pay me for it. Do you not know how posting works in this forum? You don't deserve my time or acknowledgement if you're not paying for it. That's how products work.

I know your trying to make a point here but I think it got lost in a few lateral leaps and some sideways analogies.