A rebuttal to Linus' take on Nvidia introducing multiple RTX 2060 SKUs

[strajk-]

14 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Not having access to a box or to be able read the numbers On it I can't,  so rest away.

I can't give you the back of the box, but I can give you the next best thing which is the Amazon listing of both the 3G and 6G variant from the official AiB, which are advertised as the same, not even a spec sheet is provided for the 3G variant. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/ASUS-GeForce-Dual-Fan-Graphics-DUAL-GTX1060-O3G/dp/B01KMVHB6M

https://www.amazon.com/ASUS-GeForce-Dual-Fan-Graphics-DUAL-GTX1060-O3G/dp/B01JHQT1SE

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, Daniel644 said:

dude showed you pictures of IDENTICAL BOXES outside of the single number difference of the Vram amount. clearly you are ignoring this as he proved you wrong.

I can't read half the shit on that box, I can't find a better picture online and I don't have one.

That's not proof, that's just two pictures of box with a difference on them I can't read.

 

Now if you want to get into the nitty gritty of the number of cuda cores on the 1060 6G versus the 3G version, then we can have that discussion, but keep in mind all 6G have the same amount of cuda cores and all 3G cards have the same amount cuda cores, so the issue is not box labeling,  but rather is their sufficient information available to a consumer before purchasing to know that difference.

 

Which if you want to go back to the start of this thread where you had a conniption because you wanted to insinuate a product that isn't even released yet is some how insufficiently labeled/spec'd, you'll see that I specifically excluded product misrepresentation. Which is illegal and probably wouldn't even be a thing if consumers bother to take responsibility for themselves and acknowledged they don't know everything and need to ask questions or get help.  Which from your arguments seems to be a big no no, According to your insinuations we must reduce the options instead.

 

 

 

[bbbbbbb99]

Everyone will review the 6gb gddr6, 95% of the information o performance online will be the gddr6 6gb variant, a large majority will inadaquately make it clear there are variations in performance due to memory config. The 3gb gddr5 model will be the top seller. Many people will not get caught from a lack of research but rather a lack of information to research without already knowing the difference exists. Thats the problem with this move, that is what pisses people off about this. Those who are unaware of the issue currently will find it hard to be aware when it launches. This leak actually helps nvidia and the aibs since it separates the outrage from the various models and th reviews by atleast a news cycle

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

Seriously people, all that's happened is Nvidia has given consumers a few more options.   Get a spine, stand up straight and stop expecting everyone else to protect you or your parents from bad decisions.   The world is full of choices and if you don't know what you are buying when the information is easily and readily available then that is your fault not anyone else's.

Unfortunately that didn't stop my father from buying me a graphics card, the Nvidia MX440, that did not support Texture and Lighting (TnL) when I got a new game that required it. Sure that is a little more extreme example than just different ram type and no functional difference but if a career IT expert can get it wrong so can many others.

 

I'm going to assume for this that the core configs for all the RTX 2060 are going to the same, even though I have significant doubts of that, all these different ram options as I've said before do nothing other than bring in redundant options rather than useful options.

 

Model numbers are actually a simple concept, they are supposed to be simple so that the under educated can still navigate purchasing choices. Higher model with higher price means better, lower model with lower price means worse. What does same model number but similar price within variance of all other like model options mean? Better? Worse? The same? I dunno, it's the same model number so should be the same thing right?

 

It's just as bad as WD removing the Green model branding and calling them all Blue but now you have two different variants with different cache sizes and RPM and the only place that fact is shown is on the spec sheet and not in the common display model name i.e. Western Digital Blue 3TB. I wish you best of luck figuring out when buying a WD Blue that you do for some reason actually know the 3TB and 4TB options are the 5400 RPM variants and the 2TB and 6TB are the 7200 RPM variants with larger cache. Then there are the 500GB and 1TB that come in both. Oh but wait it gets better, there is a 6TB model (WD60EZRZ) that is 5400 RPM that is not on the WD website!

 

 

Simple consistent model numbers, use them properly and use them to depict differences. Nvidia has 4 numbers to work with as well as known model suffixes, it's not too much to ask to use those possible combinations rather than tack on extra letters and numbers to the end of stuff ever making the model number larger and less understood. RTX 2060, RTX 2060 Ti, RTX 2065. Or maybe 'RTX 2060 6GB GDDR5X 15 1920:120:64 256' really is the best and easiest to understand naming scheme and Nvidia should migrate to that... not.

 

I choose to take a stand, a stand to keep the meaning of model naming. Sometimes nit picking is called for to stop slow erosion before it becomes a bigger problem. I'm going to nit pick the hell out of this RTX 2060 stuff.

 

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, strajk- said:

I can't give you the back of the box, but I can give you the next best thing which is the Amazon listing of both the 3G and 6G variant from the official AiB, which are advertised as the same, not even a spec sheet is provided for the 3G variant. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/ASUS-GeForce-Dual-Fan-Graphics-DUAL-GTX1060-O3G/dp/B01KMVHB6M

https://www.amazon.com/ASUS-GeForce-Dual-Fan-Graphics-DUAL-GTX1060-O3G/dp/B01JHQT1SE

Even though there are no details on the GPU for either, the details that is does provide are different inferring the 6G model is faster.

 

3G model:
 

Quote

 

1809 MHz boost Clock (OC mode) with 3GB GDDR58

VR ready with Dual HDMI 2.0 Ports to simultaneously connect headset & monitors

Dual-fan cooling provides doubled airflow for 3x quieter gameplay

GPU Tweak II makes monitoring performance and streaming easier than ever, featuring game booster and xsplit Gamecaster, all via an intuitive interface

Auto-extreme manufacturing technology delivers premium quality and reliability with aerospace-grade Super alloy power II components

Form Factor: Plug-in Card

 

6G model:
 

Quote

1809 MHz boost Clock (OC mode) with 6GB GDDR5;NVIDIA ANSEL for a revolutionary new way to capture in-game screenshots

Dual-fan cooling provides double airflow for 3x quieter gameplay

Vr ready with dual HDMI 2.0 ports to simultaneously connect headset & monitor

GPU TWEAK II makes monitoring performance and streaming easier than ever, featuring game booster and XSplit Gamecaster, all via an intuitive interface.Auto-extreme technology delivers premium quality and reliability with aerospace-grade super alloy power II components to run 15% faster and last 2.5 longer than reference

Graphics Engine:NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060

Form Factor: Plug-in Card

 

 

Bolded the difference,

 

Now before this conversation goes on any further, my point here is to illustrate that there are differences in claims and marketing material, there is also a difference in price.   Which I did state earlier, that is enough difference  that one should start to ask questions if they don't know? If a consumer doesn't know the difference between 3G and 6G of ram or why one is advertised with the 1060 engine or even what the 15% faster a longer refers to and they refuse to find out then they are probably going to be led to buy anything regardless.

 

If we are to take the arguments being put forward here to their logical conclusion then you should have postfixs like Ti or prefixes like GTX or R9 or Rx because not everyone undersstand what they mean.  Therefore the box, ad and all reviews should have a long list of ever major spec.

 

No I don't think so.  I think false advertising is false advertising and companies should be punished for that, but lets not dumb down this shit to the point we miss out because you are afraid some dumb dumb who refuses to educate themselves might get ripped off, especially by a company that isn't even responsible for most of the box information (I know they control layout and name positions but they don't stop them from listing the specs or making those specs prominent).

 

 

[Daniel644]

14 minutes ago, mr moose said:

It's pretty simple isn't it. I have also seen many tv's that do not have the native resolution listed on the box front (it usually just say HD), which is why if it doesn't say and the store can't guarantee then I assume it is either the lowest resolution possible or I don't buy it.

 

I just find it amusing that everyone is shit canning NVIDIA for this, but they are pointing to AIB companies as being the culprits of this "false" advertising.  It seems to me either the anger is misplaced in this thread because people don't understand the industry or they just don't want to hole AIB's responsible when it's so easy to shit on nvidia for doing little more than giving us options.

because TV's have standardized to HD=720p Full HD=1080p UHD=4k and maybe 8k. Resolution is also something the average consumer is aware of, that they need to know what it is, but we aren't talking resolution here, we are talking a spec that would be at the level of something like Contrast Ratio or Grey Uniformity, something that isn't readily available or if it is the average consumer doesn't know what it is or how important it is.

 

Nvidia is creating this mess by having both GDDR5 and GDDR6 variants of the same card and relying on the AIB's to label the box clearly enough and for the average consumer to have a fracking clue what the difference is. If you don't have a problem with this then you must not care if other people get screwed simply because YOU know better, thats Linus's whole freaking point, it's segmentation for no reason, the price differences are minimal (or should be, $10-$20 tops BOM cost for that much 6 over that much 5), there is no reason to release GDDR5 cards other then you just have a shit ton of GDDR5 stock sitting on the shelves that you need to use up (which is evidenced by the creation of so many of the newer Pascal releases since the time of the 1070ti).

[mr moose]

Just now, leadeater said:

Unfortunately that didn't stop my father from buying me a graphics card, the Nvidia MX440, that did not support Texture and Lighting (TnL) when I got a new game that required it. Sure that is a little more extreme example than just different ram type and no functional difference but if a career IT expert can get it wrong so can many others.

 

I'm going to assume for this that the core configs for all the RTX 2060 are going to the same, even though I have significant doubts of that, all these different ram options as I've said before do nothing other than bring in redundant options rather than useful options.

 

Model numbers are actually a simple concept, they are supposed to be simple so that the under educated can still navigate purchasing choices. Higher model with higher price means better, lower model with lower price means worse. What does same model number but similar price within variance of all other like model options mean? Better? Worse? The same? I dunno, it's the same model number so should be the same thing right?

 

It's just as bad as WD removing the Green model branding and calling them all Blue but now you have two different variants with different cache sizes and RPM and the only place that fact is shown is on the spec sheet and not in the common display model name i.e. Western Digital Blue 3TB. I wish you best of luck figuring out when buying a WD Blue that you do for some reason actually know the 3TB and 4TB options are the 5400 RPM variants and the 2TB and 6TB are the 7200 RPM variants with larger cache. Then there are the 500GB and 1TB that come in both. Oh but wait it gets better, there is a 6TB model (WD60EZRZ) that is 5400 RPM that is not on the WD website!

 

 

Simple consistent model numbers, use them properly and use them to depict differences. Nvidia has 4 numbers to work with as well as known model suffixes, it's not too much to ask to use those possible combinations rather than tack on extra letters and numbers to the end of stuff ever making the model number larger and less understood. RTX 2060, RTX 2060 Ti, RTX 2065. Or maybe 'RTX 2060 6GB GDDR5X 15 1920:120:64 256' really is the best and easiest to understand naming scheme and Nvidia should migrate to that... not.

 

I choose to take a stand, a stand to keep the meaning of model naming. Sometimes nit picking is called for to stop slow erosion before it becomes a bigger problem. I'm going to nit pick the hell out of this RTX 2060 stuff.

 

I fucked up when I was working in a PC shop selling this shit, mistakes happen and complex products with many different features are hard to get your head around. but lets be honest, did he know about T&L, it was very new at that time and I know a lot of people that got caught out with it.  In my opinion that was an issue with software having specialized requirements too soon. 

[Daniel644]

5 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Even though there are no details on the GPU for either, the details that is does provide are different inferring the 6G model is faster.

 

3G model:
 

6G model:
 

 

Bolded the difference,

 

Now before this conversation goes on any further, my point here is to illustrate that there are differences in claims and marketing material, there is also a difference in price.   Which I did state earlier, that is enough difference  that one should start to ask questions if they don't know? If a consumer doesn't know the difference between 3G and 6G of ram or why one is advertised with the 1060 engine or even what the 15% faster a longer refers to and they refuse to find out then they are probably going to be led to buy anything regardless.

 

If we are to take the arguments being put forward here to their logical conclusion then you should have postfixs like Ti or prefixes like GTX or R9 or Rx because not everyone undersstand what they mean.  Therefore the box, ad and all reviews should have a long list of ever major spec.

 

No I don't think so.  I think false advertising is false advertising and companies should be punished for that, but lets not dumb down this shit to the point we miss out because you are afraid some dumb dumb who refuses to educate themselves might get ripped off, especially by a company that isn't even responsible for most of the box information (I know they control layout and name positions but they don't stop them from listing the specs or making those specs prominent).

 

 

NONE of those "bolded" lines had shit to do with comparing a 3GB to a 6GB other then the amount of VRAM, the line about Ansel is simply missing from the 3GB and the saying x% faster then REFERENCE is compared to REFERENCE, not the 3GB model of the same card.

 

seriously I have to ask are you trolling?

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Daniel644 said:

because TV's have standardized to HD=720p Full HD=1080p UHD=4k and maybe 8k. Resolution is also something the average consumer is aware of, that they need to know what it is, but we aren't talking resolution here, we are talking a spec that would be at the level of something like Contrast Ratio or Grey Uniformity, something that isn't readily available or if it is the average consumer doesn't know what it is or how important it is.

I've  had this discussion before, the standards exist but are not actually standardised to any legal degree, You can put full HD on a 720p panel and that is legal in most countries.  Again you come back to what "the average customer doesn't know"  If they don't know then they need to find out or accept what they buy.

 

 

1 minute ago, Daniel644 said:

Nvidia is creating this mess by having both GDDR5 and GDDR6 variants of the same card and relying on the AIB's to label the box clearly enough and for the average consumer to have a fracking clue what the difference is.

So you claim it's nvidia fault even though you acknowledge the problem is labeling which is the AIB's job?

1 minute ago, Daniel644 said:

If you don't have a problem with this then you must not care if other people get screwed simply because YOU know better,

No, I don't care if people get screwed becasue they refuse to accept they don't understand something or won't research it.  Are you seriously telling me if you saw "now with advanced VT13 hardware" written on a product you wouldn't ask what it means and is it worth the price difference? To me if you see a number or name and you don't know what it means you ask, and if you don't ask then you get what you deserve.

 

1 minute ago, Daniel644 said:

thats Linus's whole freaking point, it's segmentation for no reason, the price differences are minimal (or should be, $10-$20 tops BOM cost for that much 6 over that much 5), there is no reason to release GDDR5 cards other then you just have a shit ton of GDDR5 stock sitting on the shelves that you need to use up (which is evidenced by the creation of so many of the newer Pascal releases since the time of the 1070ti).

I don't care what your reasoning is or what the BOM is, I want options, and your argument they shouldn't exist is founded on little more than a conspiraciy about nvidias motive and a fear of poor dumb people buying shit they don't understand.

[D13H4RD]

13 minutes ago, Daniel644 said:

because TV's have standardized to HD=720p Full HD=1080p UHD=4k and maybe 8k

That doesn't stop some lesser TV manufacturers selling old 720p sets as "Full HD TVs" or 1080p sets as "HD Ready" sets.

 

Redundancy is a problem, but so is inadequate labeling alongside the lack of diligence in how people make their buying decisions. People tend to go for what's popular or through word-of-mouth or even marketing speak. I reckon this is why we're in this situation in the first place.

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, Daniel644 said:

NONE of those "bolded" lines had shit to do with comparing a 3GB to a 6GB other then the amount of VRAM, the line about Ansel is simply missing from the 3GB and the saying x% faster then REFERENCE is compared to REFERENCE, not the 3GB model of the same card.

 

seriously I have to ask are you trolling?

Yes, I am a professional troll

 

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

I fucked up when I was working in a PC shop selling this shit, mistakes happen and complex products with many different features are hard to get your head around. but lets be honest, did he know about T&L, it was very new at that time and I know a lot of people that got caught out with it.  In my opinion that was an issue with software having specialized requirements too soon. 

Oh for sure, I didn't know about it until the game tried to start and literally said graphics card did not support TnL. That was the prompt for the new graphics card so it was known that was a requirement but either way one ended up being purchased that didn't have it, it got returned which was nice (thank you physical stores!) and a supported one ordered instead.

 

Mistakes happen, there is a reason in most high safety areas everything is in large letters in bright colours in multiple locations and multiple step activation processes with fail safes, to avoid mistakes. Good signage along with good safety training saves lives, you can't neglect either however both alone can have a positive effect. Model numbers are like the signs, make them clear and obvious, make them short and to the point and put them where everyone can see it. If everything aligns and you still manged to buy the wrong GPU or electrocute yourself that is the point where I have no sympathy, electrical safety boards don't care if the root cause was personal failure to follow correct procedure if deficiencies are also found in safety procedures within the site/company as well.

 

Mistakes will always happen but that's not exactly a good reason to make things worse or continue with something that can easily be improved for the better.

[Daniel644]

2 minutes ago, D13H4RD said:

That doesn't stop some lesser TV manufacturers selling old 720p sets as "Full HD TVs" or 1080p sets as "HD Ready" sets.

 

Redundancy is a problem, but so is inadequate labeling alongside the lack of diligence in how people make their buying decisions. People tend to go for what's popular or through word-of-mouth or even marketing speak. I reckon this is why we're in this situation in the first place.

HD Ready means it lacks a Digital Tuner and is incapable of receiving modern OTA antenna signals, TV's that lack this now are commonly referred to as "Home Theater Displays" (see some of the Vizeo E-series, it has nothing to do with Resolution). selling a 720p as Full HD is false advertising.

 

Companies should be held to a higher standard and expect some level of lack of Diligence from the consumer, especially if they only end up seeding the 6GB G6 cards to reviewers, which is highly likely to happen, it's bad business practices and we shouldn't stand for it.

[D13H4RD]

3 minutes ago, Daniel644 said:

Companies should be held to a higher standard and expect some level of lack of Diligence from the consumer, especially if they only end up seeding the 6GB G6 cards to reviewers, which is highly likely to happen, it's bad business practices and we shouldn't stand for it.

And you know what's the best weapon against such practices?

 

Be a diligent consumer. Don't fall for marketing jargon and word of mouth. Do your research and buy exactly what fits your requirements. At the same time, demand for better products and a clearer distinction between different product SKUs even if they share an identical name.

[Daniel644]

18 minutes ago, D13H4RD said:

And you know what's the best weapon against such practices?

 

Be a diligent consumer. Don't fall for marketing jargon and word of mouth. Do your research and buy exactly what fits your requirements. At the same time, demand for better products and a clearer distinction between different product SKUs even if they share an identical name.

while I agree that will help, we need to folks that know about these bad practices calling these companies out on it, this needs to be a multi-pronged attack.

[D13H4RD]

2 minutes ago, Daniel644 said:

while I agree that will help, we need to folks that know about these bad practices calling these companies out on it, this needs to be a multi-pronged attack.

Calling out is one thing. If you want this to stop, then you need to make sure that people know about what they are buying so that they will be less likely to buy the wrong product. 

 

Only through actual effort and action rather than just words will we truly see change. Action speaks far louder than a bunch of words. 

 

We called out NVIDIA and AMD for launching redundant products without clear identification before, and yet, here they are again. 

[YaBoiWill]

19 minutes ago, D13H4RD said:

people know about what they are buying so that they will be less likely to buy the wrong product. 

I think it will end up costing the companies when people get their product, as they will then complain online about it. This will cause a reduction in sales for that card. 

Might also start to cost them if lots of people are returning products because they weren't what they thought they were. 

[D13H4RD]

4 minutes ago, YaBoiWill said:

I think it will end up costing the companies when people get their product, as they will then complain online about it. This will cause a reduction in sales for that card. 

Might also start to cost them if lots of people are returning products because they weren't what they thought they were. 

That might happen if and when customers realize what they're buying. 

 

As far as I know, after people get a product, they are then not as likely to check on what they bought afterwards. 

[GoldenLag]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

so the issue is not box labeling,  but rather is their sufficient information available to a consumer before purchasing to know that difference.

so in other words "box labeling"........

[mr moose]

Just now, GoldenLag said:

so in other words "box labeling"........

in context of my discussion,  the box clearly differentiates the product from another seemingly identical GPU, but the specific information pertaining to that product has not been made sufficiently available else where.   Although I do see the perplexity of that statement, there is abetter way to put it but I would need sleep for that.

 

To be quite honest, how many people decide which GPU to buy by what is written on the box anyway, Most stores in Australia don't even have the boxes on shelves for the consumer to peruse, you go up to a counter and tell them what you want and they get it out from the back.

[GoldenLag]

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

in context of my discussion,  the box clearly differentiates the product from another seemingly identical GPU, but the specific information pertaining to that product has not been made sufficiently available else where.   Although I do see the perplexity of that statement, there is abetter way to put it but I would need sleep for that.

I sort of knew that. That is also why i put box labeling in quotes. Box labeling is involved, but there is slightly more than that. 

 

4 minutes ago, mr moose said:

To be quite honest, how many people decide which GPU to buy by what is written on the box anyway, Most stores in Australia don't even have the boxes on shelves for the consumer to peruse, you go up to a counter and tell them what you want and they get it out from the back.

Ive never seen shelves of GPUs in my entire life.........

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

 

It's just as bad as WD removing the Green model branding and calling them all Blue but now you have two different variants with different cache sizes and RPM and the only place that fact is shown is on the spec sheet and not in the common display model name i.e. Western Digital Blue 3TB. I wish you best of luck figuring out when buying a WD Blue that you do for some reason actually know the 3TB and 4TB options are the 5400 RPM variants and the 2TB and 6TB are the 7200 RPM variants with larger cache. Then there are the 500GB and 1TB that come in both. Oh but wait it gets better, there is a 6TB model (WD60EZRZ) that is 5400 RPM that is not on the WD website!

 

 

The other thing I forget to mention in regard to this before, was that I don't buy WD hdd's anymore because of their branding system.   I used to buy them as mush as I did seagate, but one day I noticed all the blues (which had previously lined up well with the barracuda 7400's) where now all 5400RPM.   Now the only time I buy a WD product is if I need a cheap SSD (sometimes even then the Kingston are better value). 

 

Having said that, even though they change the color and model numbers the relevant specs were still independently listed on the shops website.

 

Much like all the ddr4 1030's are actually listed as ddr4, and it appears if the box has no ram type visible they are the ddr5 variant. Which if that turns out to be the case with the rest of them then explains that.

[D13H4RD]

38 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

Ive never seen shelves of GPUs in my entire life.........

I have several times at my local PC store. 

 

It's PC geek nirvana, essentially. 

[GoldenLag]

Just now, D13H4RD said:

I have several times at my local PC store. 

 

It's PC geek nirvana, essentially. 

There seems to be a distinct lack of these shelves in my country

[D13H4RD]

Just now, GoldenLag said:

There seems to be a distinct lack of these shelves in my country

Online shopping is only just starting to take off over here. In the meantime, brick and mortars are still holding on (albeit barely)