Titan V ray tracing (almost) like a RTX 2080 TI

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, valdyrgramr said:

Well, their one engineer did say they are aware of RT cores, but they currently have no interest in it.  What AMD likes to do is focus more on raw power and value, but that last part kinda failed with the whole HBM taxing.  Like a Vega 64 rivaled a 1080, but the HBM2 made it cost like 100 bucks more.

I don't think it was a deliberate choice, I think they just didn't have the resources or time to work on anything beyond trying to make something that would sell. 

[S w a t s o n]

6 hours ago, leadeater said:

Nvidia isn't marketing Ray Tracing though, they are marketing hardware accelerated Ray Tracing as well as developer tools that now makes it possible to use more effectively in games, RT cores are not a requirement for those developer tools. BFV has always done the Ray Tracing in the Shader Pipeline, it was developed using Titan V's which do not have RT cores.

 

RT cores could be 10 times faster than using Shaders, who knows but BFV will never give us that information without a complete rebuild and massive update to the game to use that accelerated hardware pathway i.e. Battlefield 6 most likely.

 

This isn't any different to a lot of games not utilizing AVX2, it's there in the CPU but games not using doesn't mean AVX2 is bad or doesn't give a large performance increase.

 

It was never possible to develop BFV to use RT cores, the hardware did not exist and you can't realistically emulate something that is designed for one of the most demanding tasks you can do. You would have to delay the release of the game so you could carry out actual testing and debugging.

 

Finally remember BFV is not Nivida marketing nor an Nvidia product.

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

The Tensor cores aren't doing it, it's all pure Shader (CUDA cores).

 

Probably because past efforts were to replace Raster with RT where this is Post Processing effects/another layer over Raster. The RT cannot be done without dedicated hardware still hold true, BFV would be sub 1 FPS pure RT.

4 hours ago, leadeater said:

There was an article on it a while ago that went in to it, I don't remember the full specifics but BFV is using an implementation that does not require an Nvidia GPU and only needs DX12 DXR support. Far as I remember from the explanation both the ray casting and de-noising is done in Shaders not in RT or Tensor.

 

Better to find that actual article and confirm though. 

4 hours ago, Tech Enthusiast said:

The interesting part is not that it runs on a Titan V. 

Since DXR is a clean DX12 thing, no one that knows how this works was expecting ANY GPU not to "run" it.

 

The point is that a Titan V runs it well. Very well actually.

Granted: The same User confirmed less impressive results on other maps, but we are still talking about playable framerates, which where sold as not being possible without RT cores. And honestly, since RT has been done for a good while now, we never saw any "playable" implementation up to now. I mean, it is not like people doing this for work did not try to make it go faster or something. 

 

It seems like Tensor Cores are indeed very capable of RT work. The real question is: How capable are they really? Could RTX go without RT by having more Tensor?

More Tensor would make it vastly superior in other tasks as well,...

Unless something has changed BFV raytracing is 1. Using tensor cores for the ray casting intersection calculation 2. therefore not a pure shader (CUDA) calculation and 3. does not run on any GPU outside of Nvidia but could be made to however it would be implemented separately from the current RTX implementation.

In the proper RTX configuration RT cores do that intersection calculation (ray casting) and Tensor cores denoise.

In BFV, DICE has the tensor cores and CPU doing that (ray casting) and is using the shaders (CUDA) for denoise via what is effectively temporal AA iirc

[leadeater]

15 minutes ago, S w a t s o n said:

Unless something has changed BFV is 1. Using tensor cores for the ray casting intersection calculation 2. therefore not a pure shader (CUDA) calculation and 3. does not run on any GPU outside of Nvidia but could be made to however it would be implemented separately from the current RTX implementation.

In the proper RTX configuration RT cores do that intersection calculation (ray casting) and Tensor cores denoise.

In BFV, DICE has the tensor cores and CPU doing that (ray casting) and is using the shaders (CUDA) for denoise via what is effectively temporal AA iirc

This is not correct from what I read, you actually got a source for that. DICE has maintained that BFV is a DXR implementation and GPU agnostic, something not possible leveraging either RT cores or Tensor cores. Part of the technical explanation why there is so much noise in BFV with RTX on is due to the method they implemented which uses Shader Cores and therefore is not actually that efficient compared to Tensor cores.

 

BFV only used the RTX development tools but none of the proprietary hardware in Nvidia GPUs.

 

Sure I could be wrong but I'd rather see a source, it's been long enough since I read about BFV and personally not actually all that interested in it or it's not outstanding implementation performance wise, to be expected first generation though. 

[S w a t s o n]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

This is not correct from what I read, you actually got a source for that. DICE has maintained that BFV is a DXR implementation  and GPU agnostic, something not possible leveraging either RT cores or Tensor cores. Part of the technical explanation why there is so much noise in BFV with RTX on is due to the method they implemented which uses Shader Cores and therefore is not actually that efficient compared to Tensor cores.

 

BFV only used the RTX development tools but none of the proprietary hardware in Nvidia GPUs.

 

Sure I could be wrong but I rather see a source, it's been long enough since I read about BFV and personally not actually all that interested in it or it's not outstanding implementation performance wise, to be expected first generation though. 

DICE specifically stated they are using Tensor cores from that digital foundry rtx deepdive. Tensor cores are being used to optimize ray cast count via intersection calculations and optimization/culling based on deep learning on the bounding volume hierarchies

[S w a t s o n]

 

[S w a t s o n]

9 minutes ago, leadeater said:

This is not correct from what I read, you actually got a source for that. DICE has maintained that BFV is a DXR implementation and GPU agnostic, something not possible leveraging either RT cores or Tensor cores. Part of the technical explanation why there is so much noise in BFV with RTX on is due to the method they implemented which uses Shader Cores and therefore is not actually that efficient compared to Tensor cores.

 

BFV only used the RTX development tools but none of the proprietary hardware in Nvidia GPUs.

 

Sure I could be wrong but I'd rather see a source, it's been long enough since I read about BFV and personally not actually all that interested in it or it's not outstanding implementation performance wise, to be expected first generation though. 

Fixed the link to the right video, but you are quite right the denoise is on the shaders because the tensor cores are busy doing the raycasting calculations.

Edit: I should also point out that RTX is a DXR implementation. Games will implement both RTX and either their own or an AMD solution, you should know this

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, S w a t s o n said:

Fixed the link to the right video, but you are quite right the denoise is on the shaders because the tensor cores are busy doing the raycasting calculations

Thanks, I was literally about to post how much I hated video for this stuff compared to an article. Couldn't find the Tensor part and you can't Ctrl + F a video lol.

 

 

[Hellion]

Another day, another story about nvidia having cake on their face pushing gimmick based hardware to justify astronomical prices that like apple tools the pc "enthusiast" crowd line up in droves to purchase at any expense because it's the newest shiny toy.

[mr moose]

15 minutes ago, S w a t s o n said:

Fixed the link to the right video, but you are quite right the denoise is on the shaders because the tensor cores are busy doing the raycasting calculations.

Edit: I should also point out that RTX is a DXR implementation. Games will implement both RTX and either their own or an AMD solution, you should know this

No, I have it on good authority that DXR is a gimmick pushed by nvidia to justify stupid high prices. 

[leadeater]

17 minutes ago, S w a t s o n said:

Edit: I should also point out that RTX is a DXR implementation. Games will implement both RTX and either their own or an AMD solution, you should know this

I know that's why I said it was a DXR implementation because I thought that was only what it was using, developed using GameWorks RTX. It really does not help that Nvidia has used RTX in multiple different ways; GPU names, GPU technology and extension to GameWorks development tools.

[leadeater]

19 minutes ago, S w a t s o n said:

Fixed the link to the right video, but you are quite right the denoise is on the shaders because the tensor cores are busy doing the raycasting calculations.

Do we know if the performance drop with RTX on in BFV is from the de-noising and Shader Core load or the Tensor cores? If the BVH calculations are already being accelerated then I'm concerned that the RT cores won't be that much faster at that same task. I'm hoping/leaning towards the de-noising being the cause since it'll also impact the raster performance, I really hope it's that.

[S w a t s o n]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

No, I have it on good authority that DXR is a gimmick pushed by nvidia to justify stupid high prices. 

DXR is not the gimmick, you can call RTX an nvidia gimmick if you want but raytracing is coming to all platforms one way or another. DXR makes that reality

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

I know that's why I said it was a DXR implementation because I thought that was only what it was using, developed using GameWorks RTX. It really does not help that Nvidia has used RTX in multiple different ways, GPU names, GPU technology and extension to GameWorks development tools.

Was replying about this

Quote

DICE has maintained that BFV is a DXR implementation  and GPU agnostic, something not possible leveraging either RT cores or Tensor cores.

I should point out that DICE also mentions wanting to add RT Core support as soon as possible but we dont know if that will happen. As far as them using Tensor cores, the way they say it in the video was it was developed using the methods available on Titan V's which was tensor core only. As some of you will remember, ray tracing in games wasn't really even talked about until the star wars demo, courtesy of tensor cores. You can't do real-time RT on a pascal card because no tensor cores and no game is implementing cpu only raytracing yet. (Ok I think there's one with like super shit quality RT)

[mr moose]

Just now, S w a t s o n said:

DXR is not the gimmick, you can call RTX an nvidia gimmick if you want but raytracing is coming to all platforms one way or another. DXR makes that reality

 

I know, I was making fun of the people who are treating RT like a flawed Nvidia program that is doomed to fail. 

[S w a t s o n]

5 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Do we know if the performance drop with RTX on in BFV is from the de-noising and Shader Core load or the Tensor cores? If the BVH calculations are already being accelerated then I'm concerned that the RT cores won't be that much faster at that same task. I'm hoping/leaning towards the de-noising being the cause since it'll also impact the raster performance, I really hope it's that.

I would assume the denoising pass is quite taxing on the shaders but I'm not sure we have an exact answer. The video seems to explain that geometry triangle count does not matter as much as the number of instances (i think they mean objects/things that interact with rays effectively)

[leadeater]

8 minutes ago, S w a t s o n said:

I should point out that DICE also mentions wanting to add RT Core support as soon as possible but we dont know if that will happen.

Well I hope they do, wonder how much work is involved in doing that.

 

Nvidia: "It just works"

 

Should be easy right? 

 

8 minutes ago, S w a t s o n said:

Was replying about this

Yea I was referring to it as DXR since DICE was saying BFV could be made to work on any GPU with DXR support but I guess the important part left out of that was the "But we'd have to optimize for it" bit.

[Settlerteo]

7 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I know, I was making fun of the people who are treating RT like a flawed Nvidia program that is doomed to fail. 

Well it might not fail, it's definitely not a flawed program but that doesn't mean it's not also a marketing trick to raise gpu prices more. We 've seen it before from both companies.

[S w a t s o n]

5 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Well I hope they do, wonder how much work is involved in doing that.

 

Nvidia: "It just works"

 

Should be easy right? 

 

Yea I was referring to it as DXR since DICE was saying BFV could be made to work on any GPU with DXR support but I guess the important part left out of that was the "But we'd have to optimize for it" bit.

Spoiler

So this is what RTX looks like before tensor or RT. If I understand it correctly the tensor cores are basically doing the yellow part via a deep learning model tailored to each game.
 

Spoiler

The RT cores just do it mathematically and use deep learning to clean it up which makes sense. Infer the final picture from the best source data (accurate rays), rather than infer rays and then clean those up on shaders

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, Settlerteo said:

Well it might not fail, it's definitely not a flawed program but that doesn't mean it's not also a marketing trick to raise gpu prices more. We 've seen it before from both companies.

 

Marketing tricks are to increase sales, not raise prices.  One of the funny things about volatile markets (which GPUs are) is that there really isn't a lot of room for crazy discounts or stupid markups.  About the closest you will get to crazy price inflation is when a company has sufficient other products that take the main focus away from the designer cookie.  E.G some of the aorus, ROG type cards which offer slightly more performance but come with a $400 premium are usually offset by the tens of thousands of reference models they sell.  Thus if they were limited to one model it wouldn't be over priced because they would sell enough to make any money.

[Hellion]

34 minutes ago, mr moose said:

No, I have it on good authority that DXR is a gimmick pushed by nvidia to justify stupid high prices. 

"I have it on good authority that" some people have convinced themselves they are smarter then everyone else and know everything about everything because they literally spend every waking hour of the day arguing on an internet forum.

[mr moose]

Just now, Hellion said:

"I have it on good authority that" some people have convinced themselves they are smarter then everyone else and know everything about everything because they literally spend every waking hour of the day arguing on an internet forum.

keep telling yourself that.  I'm sure it helps you sleep at night. 

 

Or maybe have a look around the industry and see that the only part in RT that Nvidia has is to introduce new hardware to take advantage of DXR.

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

Or maybe have a look around the industry and see that the only part in RT that Nvidia has is to introduce new hardware to take advantage of DXR.

And lets not forget to point out that AMD and Nvidia both worked with Microsoft on the DirectX 12 DXR spec, both knew of it and wanted it. Only one turned up to the race though.

[S w a t s o n]

7 minutes ago, leadeater said:

And lets not forget to point out that AMD and Nvidia both worked with Microsoft on the DirectX 12 DXR spec, both knew of it and wanted it. Only one turned up to the race though.

16 minutes ago, Hellion said:

"I have it on good authority that" some people have convinced themselves they are smarter then everyone else and know everything about everything because they literally spend every waking hour of the day arguing on an internet forum.

Polyphony Digital (makers of Gran Turismo) are developing their own RT engine, so hopefully Navi has that rumoured AI silicon or the PS5 has so many zen cores they are just gonna brute force it. Imagination Technologies and other chip makers are all looking into this. Raytracing in mobile games will be a thing. The whole industry is ready.

As CPU core counts take off in the next 5 years I expect to see some CPU raytracing implemented

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

And lets not forget to point out that AMD and Nvidia both worked with Microsoft on the DirectX 12 DXR spec, both knew of it and wanted it. Only one turned up to the race though.

It just astounds me that we have this amazing thing called the internet,  and with a few clicks you can see an industry wide history of the drive for and development of ray tracing.  But hey, lets ignore it all so we can call a company greedy and try to pretend they are evil or something.

[Tech Enthusiast]

54 minutes ago, leadeater said:

And lets not forget to point out that AMD and Nvidia both worked with Microsoft on the DirectX 12 DXR spec, both knew of it and wanted it. Only one turned up to the race though.

This part can not be stressed enough.

Getting sick of the people claiming DXR is an NVidia only gameworks thing, when in reality AMD was on the table and DXR is a Microsoft thing really. Oh and it also works on Vulcan.

[Settlerteo]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

 

Marketing tricks are to increase sales, not raise prices.  One of the funny things about volatile markets (which GPUs are) is that there really isn't a lot of room for crazy discounts or stupid markups.  About the closest you will get to crazy price inflation is when a company has sufficient other products that take the main focus away from the designer cookie.  E.G some of the aorus, ROG type cards which offer slightly more performance but come with a $400 premium are usually offset by the tens of thousands of reference models they sell.  Thus if they were limited to one model it wouldn't be over priced because they would sell enough to make any money.

I see your point, but just tell me something. If all of us stopped buying any cards over 300-350$(which was the enthusiast price range in the not so distant past), would they drop the prices or do you think they would keep up. Marketing tricks always aim for the increase on sales but sometimes they also aim at higher prices(they're just selling marketing along with the card itself).